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GumboBC 06-30-2004 08:43 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
I looked at 3 of the top QB's in the game and looked at their passing numbers vs. great run defenses then looked at their numbers vs. great CB's.

I think this gives a good indication that great run defenses and a great pass rush beats shut down CB's.

P. Manning 14/21 173 1 0 vs. Titans - (Rush Defense #1)
P. Manning 21/33 216 2 1 vs. Jaguars (Rush Defense #2)
P. Manning 23/34 293 1 1 vs. Panthers ( Rush Defense # 11)
P. Manning 23/37 266 1 1 vs. Dolphins (great CBs)
P. Manning 29/48 278 4 1 vs. Patriots (great CBs)

S. McNair 21/27 187 1 1 vs. Jaguars (Rush Defense #2)
S. McNair 12/22 190 1 0 vs. Panthers (Rush Defense #11)
S. McNair 17/23 201 2 0 vs. Dolphins (great CB's)
S. McNair 25/38 269 2 1 vs. Raiders (great CB's)

D. McNabb 18/26 182 1 1 vs. Panthers (Rush Defense #11)
D. McNabb 23/32 242 3 0 vs. Redskins (great CB's)
D. McNabb 15/27 236 0 1 vs. Dohphins (great CB's)







[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]

GumboBC 06-30-2004 09:06 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Quote:

Billy boy I say one thing about you. You sure are persistant. But remember you used to say stats don\'t matter. You are first to claim Peyton is a bum, why are you know saying he is a top 3 QB?

How does Brooks stack up against Great Rush Defenses and Great CBs?
Well, Gator, Peyton finally won a playoff game or 2. :P Peyton managed not to choke until the AFC championship game. So, I give him his due credit. ;)

And I was just holding the \" Manning Boy\" to the same standards ya\'ll hold Brooks to. :P

WhoDat 06-30-2004 09:41 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Peyton Manning
Yards: 4,267 (1st)
TDs: 29 (2nd)
Passer Rating: 99 (2nd)
Completion Percentage: 66.96% (1st)
TD:INT Ratio: 2.9 (3rd)

Yeah, without those playoff wins that Manning sure is a bum.

What\'s the rule for QBs qith Billy again? Oh yeah, I remember:

If the QB is one of the top 10 or so in the league, and the team wins, the QB won the game. If the QB isn\'t in the top 10, then it was the team. If the QB is in the top ten and the team loses, then the team let the QB down, otherwise the QB let the team down.

SO by those standards, Manning is the only reason they won any games at all and all those picks he threw in the AFC championship were a result of the line not doing its job and letting Manning down. Receivers probably dropped balls too. :)

GumboBC 06-30-2004 09:51 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
WhoDat --

Pssssssst. Are you telling me that superstar QB\'s like Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, Tom Brady, and Mike Vick don\'t belong in the NFL because they are holding their teams back? That sounds like what cha been preachin\' to me!!

Well, I ain\'t buyin\' it. Not tonight!!! Check back with me later though... :P

Oh, I might be willing to buy into that: \"Penalties don\'t kill drives\" thingy that you were tryin\' to sell me last year. Maybe you can give me a package deal on the both of them? :P

[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]

Sarsippius 07-01-2004 06:35 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
I guess what I don\'t see is how does overall run defense show how good a teams pass rush is. It is one thing to load up the box and stop the run, but another to pressure the quarterback. I was unable to find team ranks sortable by categories like knockdowns and hurries to see which teams had the best pass rush and was far too lazy to even think about checking every game recap and compiling my own totals.

I think my main point is that due to our inability to stop any team from running all over us last season, our CB did an above average job considering we had our safeties staying home for run support. You don\'t know how well our pass defense will be until you fix the leak up the middle, and if fixed, do we really need that mythical beast known as a shut-down corner when our pass rush keeps the opposing QB from having the luxury of time to let plays develop or find the open reciever? Providing Young and Sullivan can step it up and plug up the gaps and our highly touted young MLBs play up to their hype, only then will we know if our pass defense needs more help.

I totally expect to see Tebucky have an outstanding year making plays now that he should be free to follow the quarterback instead of the runningback off the snap. Thomas is above average, but lacks speed to be a shut down. Ambrose is the same, though I read he wasn\'t 100% last year and his speed is better than we thought. Craft is a wildcard that I dont think anyone here knows enough about to feel comfortable with, and judging by the team\'s statement that Ambrose is #2 with Brown set to challenge him, that puts Craft at #4 depth wise. Would be nice to get at least one more adequate corner in case of injury.

All that being said, there is still the X factor of pressure. On paper, we look to have the most explosive and deep defensive line this team has ever seen. In theory, our new defensive schemes stands to utilize that talent and depth and relentlessly attack the QB every down. If we only stop the run, this team should average 4 sacks, 6 knockdowns, and a dozen hurries barring injury, well over half the total passing attempts a QB will get. Not to mention the majority of interceptions in this league don\'t come from outstanding coverage from the corners, but from forcing the QB to hastily make decisions by getting your hand in his face before hes ready, and the giveaway/takeaway ratio is almost always indicative of the winner of the game.

I know that\'s a lot of if\'s, and only time will tell if we are as good as we say we are, but I\'m sold.

btw...Brooks vs. the same

A. Brooks - 15/23 185 1 0 vs. Titans (#1 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 22/38 296 2 0 vs. Jaguars (#2 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 15/32 243 1 0 vs Cowboys (#3 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 14/30 121 1 0 vs Redskins (Great Corners)

coastalkid 07-01-2004 10:32 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Although I don\'t intend to try to speak for BC I do believe in what he is trying to say and it has been said so many times now that it isn\'t really worth the argument anymore but here goes anyway.
A good fierce pass rush will make average DB\'s look very good. The key to stopping any teams passing game is to not give the QB time to look around at all of his options. This is true no matter who the QB is. If he is running for his life or constantly dodging a rush he will not be able to make all of the right decisions with the ball.
If our pass rush is as fierce as it should be then the DB\'s we have, although not the premier in the league, will hold their own.
Good intent Billy. Just old news.

GumboBC 07-01-2004 10:52 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
coastalkid --

While this topic has been discussed many times, I thought I\'d spread a little different light on the subject by actually showing how some of the best QB\'s did in 2003 vs. great front 4\'s and then against \"shutdown\" cornerbacks.

There MIGHT be 2 or 3 guys in the league who can take the best receivers out of the game, but it\'s a good run defense (putting QB\'s in known passing situations) and a fierce pass rush (not giving the QB enough time) that\'s the key to shutting down a passing game.

It\'s been said here many times that our CB\'s are going to get killed against the upper echelon receivers. That will probably be true, IF we can\'t stop the run or generate a pass rush.
But, if we can, we have a chance to have a great season.

I keep seeing all this talk here on B&G about how we need Chris McCallister, Mike McKenzie, Charles Woodsen, etc., etc.. I think CB\'s are way over-hyped.

JKool 07-01-2004 12:11 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Billy, I like the move. Very interesting post.

I\'d like to say on behalf of the \"we need corners camp\" that none of us believe we NEED a Woodson or a McAlister. We\'re all saying this: imagine what a nightmare our D would be if we had one of them! Commence salivating.

I have agreed all along, and I don\'t remember anyone who didn\'t, that D starts with the D-line. Run stopping is of utmost importance, then pass rush, THEN coverage. My point when I started in on this debate was that people should not overlook what the secondary can do for the front four! Coverage sacks, more men in the box, and more confidence in a read situation with better guys over the top = greater D-line.

Sarsippius 07-01-2004 06:10 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
One more thing I would like to add:

I don\'t believe there is a such thing as a shut-down corner anymore. Receivers have gotten too big, too fast, and too quick to contain, and none are faster than our Saints corps. Put your best corner on the opposing teams best reciever and they still need help. Sure they could shut down the #3 reciever but what good would that do when the #1 is runnin all over the place. I looked around for some stat archives but to no avail to hopefully back up my claim, but I would like to find out how many times quartebacks threw at the supposed best corners during the course of the season and how they fared. Then I would like to compare those stats to the 90\'s cowboy teams with Deion - the premiere and only true shut-down corner I will admit to and I hate the Cowboys (From Houston). I remember teams playing the Cowboys would maybe attempt one or two passes per game total on him he was so dominating, but then again that was before the prototypical reciever of today\'s game existed. Any help?

JKool 07-01-2004 06:29 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Sars,

I don\'t think there ever has been or ever will be what people call a \"shut down corner\". However, there are some guys you just have to think twice about throwing toward, even if there is no safety or linebacker out there with them. I think Deion was in the camp, but so are many others - Champ Bailey, Chris McAlister, Sam Madison a couple of years ago, and the list goes on.

I just don\'t understand why everyone thinks that the secondary is SO low on the list of priorities. I agree that you can be successful with a mediocre secondary, but think of the successes had by mediocre D-line players because someone made the QB check down! I agree that stopping the pass is secondary to stopping the run, but I just think that people are overlooking the value of a quality corner.

Here is something about this debate that I\'ve been wondering about for a few days that I haven\'t been able to pin down. When making comparisons, we are comparing entire D-lines to entire secondaries. What the debate is about, it seems to me, is whether or not a quality corner can really help a team. I\'m not sure that stats are kept that would tell us one way or another - especially when most will admit that many great plays by a corner go un-recorded (when he forces a QB to throw short or to the other side of the feild). Though I really do admire Billy\'s work in providing interesting stats - this seems like a debate where those numbers are hard to use.

I will continue to maintain that a quality CB will make the entire defense better, and not just \"a little better\". This is the guy who makes a lot of different things possible on D, makes the D-line look better in the middle of the game when they\'re getting frustrated about not being able to get to the QB, allows the Safeties to roll off and cover the run, and so on. Sure, we\'re not going to get this guy this year, but I don\'t see why that makes him of \"low\" value?

GumboBC 07-01-2004 06:40 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Sarsippius –

As far as I’m aware, there are no stats for the information you are looking for. And I’ve looked !!

I think when referring to “shut-down� cornerbacks, people aren’t suggesting that they will take a receiver completely out of the game, but they will “limit� the degree of success they have. Or, something along those lines. In any event, they aren’t saying they will shut every receiver down.

I agree with you that there are better receivers today. Or, at least there are a LOT more of them.

My whole point is that “shut-down� cornerbacks aren’t needed to win a championship and average cornerbacks CAN and HAVE gotten the job done.

I think the cornerback position is ONE of the least important positions on defense. I’m not saying you can put just anyone back there, just saying a great D-line helps them out so much.

And it’s true that CB’s help the pass rush out. But, CB’s don’t help the D-line out nearly as much as the opposite.

I’d love to have pro-bowl players at every position, and that includes CB. However, that’s not possible. Defense has and always will be about stopping the run and rushing the passer.

Teams are always going to be lacking in some areas. And I don’t think CB is a bad place to be lacking when compared to other positions. The CB’s get all the glamour. But the front four makes or breaks a defense. I have yet to see a great defense with “shut-down� CB’s and an average D-line?

JKool 07-01-2004 07:43 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
An evaluation of the importance of any position on the defense is going to depend a whole lot on where your superstars are playing (e.g. a great SS is going to make a great MLB a little less necessary, a great backside corner is going to make a great WLB less necessary, and so on).

However, in a complete vaccuum, here is how I would pick:

1. DE (pass rush would be what I\'d look for here)
2. DT (run stopper - not fat, but takes two blockers)
3. WLB
4. MLB
5. DE
6. CB (cover corner)
(5 and 6 are pretty well equivalent for me, so it is hard to say which would be higher)
7. SS
8. SLB
9. CB
10. FS
(as far as 9 and 10 go here, they are pretty well equal in my eyes)
11. DT (or ILB for a 3-4)

Of course, as noted above, these rankings depend entirely on who is going to be next to each other and their range of abilities.

GumboBC 07-01-2004 07:50 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
The further you get away from the ball, the less important you are, IMO.

1. DT
2. DT
3. DE
4. DE
5. MLB
6. SLB
7. WLB
8. CB
9. CB
10. SS
11. FS

JKool 07-01-2004 09:24 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
I bet you can find many very successful teams with at least one \"no name\" DT. I would bet that even a fair number of the best run stopping teams have one \"no name\" on the line.

Also, given the amount of rotation at D-line, it is safe to say that on several plays it is thought that the next best guy will do just fine. Whereas, few coaches would be yanking their best CB to give him a breather (because the drop off in talent is usually more significant, IMO).

I\'m also going to say that your SLB is less important that your SS, since in nickel and dime packages, your SLB will not be on the field. Thus, your SS will be on the field for about 1/3 more plays than your SLB.

I think it is too simple to think of distance from the ball as the main criteria here. I agree having talent at FS is probably not that important. I also agree that the DL is where it is at, but it is my opinion that you really only need 3 of the 4 to truly be good to have a very successful line (I\'m sure we can find evidence of this by looking to the great run stuffing teams).

GumboBC 07-01-2004 09:36 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Jkool –

There are many different scenarios to building a great defense. You’ve introduced several different ways of doing just that.

But, I’m speaking in terms of building the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE.

Also I’m saying you can only take into account the 11 individual positions and not take into account any substitutions.

Following that criteria, how would you rank the positions in order of importance?


[Edited on 2/7/2004 by GumboBC]

JKool 07-02-2004 04:14 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Billy,

I think we agree that D-line is of critical importance, so I wasn\'t disputing that. I was merely trying to point out that I don\'t think CB is as far down the list as you seemed to be suggesting.

As far as building the BEST DEFENSE POSSIBLE, I think there are three plausible answers to your question:

(1) Rank all positions as the most important. Look if I\'m going to build the best defense possible, then I want the best guy at EVERY position - especially if there are no subs.

OR

(2) The rankings I gave above. I think that is the formula for the best balance to your D. The rankings I gave keep it open to run a bunch of different schemes and allows for a solid pass rush (with a super stud DE) and great run coverage (with a stud DT, MLB, and WLB - who can also read and react against the passing game). Combine that with a stud CB and second DE and you\'re pretty well set.

OR

(3) The rankings will depend greatly depending on who is in your division. In a division with Vick, you\'d better have some speed rushers or it won\'t matter who is in coverage. In a division with solid but not speedy QBs, you\'ll need that corner and the two ends. In a division with solid running games, you\'d better get those linebackers right away.

If your point was that I ranked some positions lower because they would see the field less often, then you were correct. I don\'t think that your second DT or your SLB are as important because in most nickel and dime packages, they won\'t even be on the field.

I guess it is my view that the best way to build a defense is not from the ball out, but thrather up one side and down the other (roughly). This will give you the most options for blitzes, coverages, and general schemes. Thus, your second DT is less important than a CB who can control a WR or one side of the zone (especially on the backside for rolling coverages).

Also, I guess if you think the DL are going to get pressure every play (or a sack), then it is hard to argue with your ranking. It is just not the case that that will happen against a well oiled offense, unless your secondary can make the QB check down. Furthermore, your LBs won\'t be able to stick the line to make tackles when your studs up front command the double teams if they are forced to help out in the flats and the hook zones.

In the end, you need a combination of skills at the different positions to control today\'s offenses, not merely an ability to control the line of scrimidge - that is why sweeps, screens, shallow outs, and fades are so effective against teams with both good run stuffing and good pass rushing lines but without the secondary to help them out.

subguy 07-02-2004 07:55 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Obviously a great pass rushing line is going to skew the stats of the DB\'s. However, a great pass rushing line makes the DB\'s better. They cause the QB to hurry which creates mistakes and causes less accuracy. I love a line that can penetrate and get to the QB.

FrenzyFan 07-02-2004 09:39 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
This happens every year on this board.... We know we have problems on one side of the ball or the other, and we spend weeks trying to say our strengths are so overpowering they cover our weakness. Most of the time, the \"strengths\" we argue with are mostly unproven and are simply a reflection of our hopes for what they will do.

I would hope that everyone would agree that our corners are a problem. FT is scrappy but short and slow, AA is savvy but aging (lost a step or three) and slow, FB is inexperienced, KC plays too much playstation ;) , JC was the #4 guy where he came from, the rest are virtual unknowns. At best, we can say we are average (if you are on optimist). Add an injury in the mix and all of a sudden, we plummet to abyssmal.

Our D-Line appears to have tons of talent - though I venture to say that Darren Howard is the only proven producer of the bunch. Sullivan still hasn\'t grown to his \"potential\", Grant shows flashes but is inconsistent, Young has a great motor but is brand new to the system, Leisle is a rookie, Smith is a rookie, Whitehead is a solid #2 type, I could go on but what\'s the point. We have a ton of \"potential\" not proof.

So here we are again... with an identified weakness unaddressed in FA or the draft. Here we are again talking about how our \"strength\" will compensate for our weakness... but our strength hasn\'t materialized yet.

All I have this season are hopes and nothing that suggests my hopes are realistic. Thus far, nothing suggests to me that our D-Line will be able to compensate for our DBs. I hope they can help, but I haven\'t seen anything yet that makes me believe they will be so overpowering that enemy QBs will just fall over dead in the mere face of our pass rush.

GumboBC 07-02-2004 10:14 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Caution: Sunshine Post

http://thm-br1r2.search.vip.scd.yahoo.com/image/9430037

Quote:

Posted By: FrenzyFan:
I would hope that everyone would agree that our corners are a problem
Can\'t agree with that. They could be better, but I see absolutely no reason to think they will be a problem. They weren\'t much of a problem last year and you can say that\'s because they didn\'t get tested enough last year, but I disagree. ;)

Quote:

Posted By: FrenzyFan:
Add an injury in the mix and all of a sudden, we plummet to abyssmal
This is based on what? Fred Thomas goes down and we put Jason Craft in. That means we are abyssmal? Again, based on what? I\'m not trying to be rude here, but have you ever seen Jason Craft play? Seems like you are taking the most negative approach possible. You are entitled to that though. ;)

Quote:

Posted By: FrenzyFan:
I could go on but what\'s the point. We have a ton of \"potential\" not proof.
Nothing can be proven until the first game. We\'re not here trying to say anyone is proven. I\'m trying to look at the positives and the negatives the best way I can. I\'m not looking for absolutes.

Quote:

Posted By: FrenzyFan:
All I have this season are hopes and nothing that suggests my hopes are realistic.
What do you need to be hopeful for this season? Hey, we could have signed Ray Lewis and Ty Law, but just because we didn\'t doesn\'t mean there isn\'t GOOD reason to be hopeful.

FrenzyFan -- I\'m just joking around with you, but I really don\'t see why you can\'t find more reasons to be a little more hopeful. Peace... :P


BlackandBlue 07-02-2004 11:22 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Technically, you can say that there are no \"true\" shut-down corners in the league, and would be correct in this, because the league will not allow it. They are constantly changing the rules in favor of the receivers, because you\'re common JoeSchmoe fan loves the touchdown.
Because of this, I judge the talent of the corner based on the rules of the era that they play in and how they perform, instead of comparing them to Deion Sanders, Michael Haynes, or any of the other corners from the past that would be considered a \"true\" shutdown corner.

JKool 07-02-2004 11:44 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Good point BnB! I like it.

Billy, sorry for the rant earlier. I think we agree for the most part except about how important a solid cover corner is on a defense (and even then, we\'re not far apart.)

For the record (again), I don\'t think that our corners as they are are a cause for concern, unless one of them gets hurt (and mostly because there don\'t seem to be enough of them). It is just my view that a good to great cover guy would substantially improve our pass defense (both by simply covering and by giving our ferocious DL a few extra seconds here and there).

GumboBC 07-02-2004 11:52 AM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
JKool --

You made some very good points in that post. And you changed my mind to a certain degree.

I\'m not completely sold on our CBs. I look for them to have some bad games. Games in which if we had better CB it would help out greatly.

But, then again, I\'m not sold on our D-line or our linebackers. Or our safties as far at that\'s concerned.

The only place I feel really comfortable about is at DE. But, we have a LOT of talent on defense and that\'s one thing that can\'t be coached. It\'s a good base to improve upon. Then add in John Pease, and I see reason for optimisim. I know you and most folks are optimisitc. Some aren\'t.

I\'ve just never been able to understand the concept of: Well, they aren\'t proven so I don\'t have much hope they will be any better?

JKool --You bring a lot to this board, brother. Granola and all......... :P

JKool 07-02-2004 12:01 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Billy,

Quote:

I\'ve just never been able to understand the concept of: Well, they aren\'t proven so I don\'t have much hope they will be any better?
Agreed!

I do think that skepticism about some players is warranted (some draft picks and UFAs are hard to get your hopes up about). However, I think it is fun to imagine how the rookies will do, salivate over the big name signings (when there are any), and so on. Those players may be \"unproven\", but we can read about them and get reports by people whose job it is to evaluate them. I don\'t see why those reports don\'t count as evidence!

I also sometimes think that some people just have a harder time dealing with thwarted \"hopes\" than others. I often wonder if that isn\'t the really difference between an optimist and a pessimist - merely how hard one takes it when one is wrong.

WhoDat 07-02-2004 01:49 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Quote:

Well, they aren\'t proven so I don\'t have much hope they will be any better?
For the record, I think you might be misconstruing the issue somewhat - or better put, combining two separate issues.

For example - I\'ve thought that the Saints were a few key positions away from having all the pieces in play on D. DT was one of those positions. So was MLB and CB. For those spots, I had hoped the Saints would find \"proven\" talent to plug in and make an impact immediately. My thinking was (and has been) that with strong play from those spots with the other surrounding players we have, the D would improve enough to put us over the hump.

Part of this stems from our differing opinion on what a team needs to be really successful. IMO, a defense needs 2 good DEs (which we had), one good DT and some depth at that spot, a playmaker at MLB, a playmaker in the secondary, and then speed everywhere else. You focus more on the D-line. I do not argue its importance, we just look at building a defense slightly differently.


In regards to the \"I don\'t have much hope they will be any better\" part, I think you misunderstand the message. 1) A proven player is more likely to impact the game NOW whereas a \"young talent\" has to grow and learn. 2) More importantly, the basis for saying certain players on this team aren\'t progressing has nothing to do with being unproven. In fact, it has more to do with a proven track record of underperforming.

I have, for example, been down on Hodge for his lack of progress and overall level of play. Further, IMO, the coaches haven\'t shown that they are very capable of grooming players on the defensive side of the ball. There are two parts to that to me. 1) Getting the player to \"game readiness\" quickly and 2) getting the player to his full potential. We have a LOT of talent on D, but I can\'t say that I\'ve seen anyone truly play up to his total potential. Even Howard, Grant, etc. have not played as well as I think they are capable. The one exception to that might be Jay Bellamy last season. Fred Thomas is also another guy who has probably played up to his potential. Otherwise, who has played up on D? Hand in 2000 maybe. Grant? Howard? Sullivan? Jackson? Hodge? Allen? Ruff? Rodgers? D Carter? Ambrose? Craver? Brown - he\'s getting there. Tebucky? Mitchell? Knight maybe.

Point is, suggesting that a team already full of young talent in need of a few key players and leadership does not need another young inexperienced player isn\'t a knock on the player. He just isn\'t the right fit right now. Especially when the team has tons of money available to go get the key FAs we need. Those are my thoughts anyway.

[Edited on 2/7/2004 by WhoDat]

GumboBC 07-02-2004 02:09 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
WhoDat --

I agree with most of what you say. But, I don\'t know how much I agree about the coaching staff not developing the talent on defense.

IMO, you are leaving out some important factors:

1. How young and inexperienced a lot of these guys are.
2. Where they were drafted at. (some players are more of a project than others)
3. Injuries.

Daren Howard: Was drafted in 2nd round and had a great rookie year recording 11 sacks. But he had Joe Johnson and Le Roi Glover taking the double team off of him. The next year he only had six sacks when Glover and Joe Johnson wasn\'t there. I don\'t see \"development\" having too much to do with it. You can blame \"scheme\" or losing quality players, but NOT \"development\", IMO.

Charles Grant: Rookie in 2002- 7 sacks, pretty good rookie season considering he came out as a junior. Second year player in 2003- 10 sacks without having Darren Howard or anyone else to take the double team off of him. Despite all the injuries on defense, Grant still progressed from the previous year.

Jay Bellamy - Had the best year of his 10- year career in 2003.

Norman Hand -- I believe he\'s about to be cut from Seattle.

Sedrick Hodge: Drafted in the 3rd round in 2001. Played sparingly in his rookie year. In his sophomore season he recorded 74 tackles playing behind a terrible D-line. Was out for 7 games last year which held his progress back. For a guy that was drafted in the 3rd round and injured for most of last year, it\'s impossible to say the coaches haven\'t developed him properly.





[Edited on 2/7/2004 by GumboBC]

BlackandBlue 07-02-2004 03:36 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Grant is not the runstopper that Howard is, while I believe that Grant will be a better pass rusher. Now don\'t get me wrong, Grant is decent against the run and Howard is a good pass rusher, but it\'s all to scale.

FrenzyFan 07-02-2004 04:21 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
I am not surprised that what I said was misconstrued. I never implied in any way that our players would not get any better. I never even challenged their potential and talent (except at CB - you\'ll never convince me that small, slow corners that force you into cover 2 all the time are \"adequate\"). What I said what that I have no evidence to suggest that our unproven players will be so overpowering that they compensate for what I perceive to be a weakness (at CB). What I have is hope, and that is all.

I\'ve said on other posts that I believe our pass rush will be a good one. In that same post, I asserted that it will cause problems for inexperienced or hesitant QBs we face and that we will likely win those games. I fear the teams that have quick-thinking, quick-reacting QBs - because they can exploit our weak secondary.

Now, of course anyone can believe anything they like including the idea that our corners are \"good\". I don\'t have to share that opinion. Anyone can believe that the talent and potential we all see in our defensive line will come together and be the most devastating thing since the nuclear weapon. It may happen. I HOPE IT DOES! If it does, I will start feeling better about our chances against teams with a good passing game. If I see it, you can bet I will comment on it and praise them for it.

My opinion is not frozen in one unrealistic viewpoint based on fantasy and hopeful thoughts, nor is it locked into a negative mode by \"pessimism\" (or whatever the board catch-phrase of the day is.) My opinion can change as the evidence does, and throughout the season I can feel better or worse about things depending on what I see and how an individual performs.

GumboBC 07-02-2004 04:37 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
FrenzyFan --

In no way am I suggesting that you don\'t have the right to feel however you choose. I think good healthy discussion comes from different view points. And that includes yours. But when you start tossing words like \"abyssmal\" around, I consider that an extreme view point.

And when you say that you need \"proof\" before you will feel hopeful, I\'m not really sure exactly what you mean.

I apologize if I misinterpeted the meaning of your post. But, it seemed like it was your intention to make a case there wasn\'t really anything to get excited about becasue there\'s not enough evidence to suggest otherwise.

Obviously everyone has their own opinion on the 2004 Saints. I don\'t expect everyone to agree with the way I see things. And I don\'t agree with everyone else either.

After reading your last post, you made a clear case why you feel the way you do. However, I was having hard time determing why you felt the way you did in your first post.

In any event, I think we both agree that we hope the Saints have a great season. :D

BlackandBlue 07-02-2004 04:42 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
FF, if it makes you feel any better, I view corners the same way as you do. If you play the position, and you are shorter than 5\'11\" and are considered slower than average, you have a lower performance ceiling, and there\'s nothing you can do about it.
Thomas is our best CB, we\'ve beat it into the ground how he has a big heart and can lay some wood from time to time, but that will always be overshadowed by the fact that he\'s 5\'9\", and slower than some of our linebackers.

[Edited on 2/7/2004 by BlackandBlue]

GumboBC 07-02-2004 04:56 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Quote:

Posted By BlackandBlue:
Thomas is our best CB, we\'ve beat it into the ground how he has a big heart and can lay some wood from time to time, but that will always be overshadowed by the fact that he\'s 5\'9\", and slower than some of our linebackers.
Had to throw that linebacker comparison in there, eh? ;)

Make no mistake, I know our CB\'s are a liability in many ways. But, when you want to talk about evidence -- There is no eveidence to suggest we are going to be terrible in pass coverage. There\'s eveidence to suggest we will be average.

Now, I\'m out of this \"cornerback\" disscussion. :P


BlackandBlue 07-02-2004 05:08 PM

Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?
 
Quote:

Had to throw that linebacker comparison in there, eh?
We\'ve got some pretty fast linebackers. They might get run over from time to time, but they\'ve got some wheels. Maybe the Saints are competing in the wrong sport...


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