PFT:Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL
 

Judge Helen G. Berrigan issued an order today in the bounty cases. Though it contained no ruling, it hinted at a decision she may be thinking about making, specifically as to Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma’s defamation claim against Commissioner Roger Goodell.

Judge Berrigan has ordered the parties to identify by Friday at noon the date on which the NFLPA allegedly asked the NFL to defer disciplining players on March 21, the same day he disciplined the coaches and other non-players in the bounty case.

“The Court is aware that Goodell stated, during the March 21, 2012 interview with the NFL Network and ESPN, that he would have disciplined the players at the same time as the coaches but for the NFLPA’s indication that they ‘wanted some time to investigate [the allegations] and talk to its own players,’” Judge Berrigan writes in the order, a copy of which was obtained by PFT. “The Court is asking for the specific date on which this request occurred. If the date is already in the record, the parties may simply cite to the relevant document in the record; if it is not, then the parties shall submit the relevant evidence.”

Judge Berrigan apparently is trying to confirm — or debunk — the NFL’s claim that the decision to suspend the players already had been made at the time the league imposed discipline on the non-players. If the NFL hadn’t made the decision to suspend the players on or before March 21, then the statements made on March 21 by Goodell regarding Vilma could be viewed as unnecessary to the disciplinary process and thus not within the confines of Goodell’s job duties and, most importantly, completely beyond the scope of the labor agreement’s arbitration procedures.

In English, if Goodell actually hadn’t made the decision as to the players on March 21, Vilma’s defamation lawsuit can proceed in court.

At the August 10 hearing before Judge Berrigan, NFL outside counsel Gregg Levy reiterated the position that the decision was made as of March 21, but that the league waited at the union’s request. “[T]he Commissioner was prepared to issue his suspension decision with regard to the players at the same time that he disciplined the franchise and the coaches. But he held off doing that. He held off doing that because he was asked to do that by the Union, which represented to him that it was conducting its own investigation and no investigation ensued,” Levy said.

Judge Berrigan seems to be calling B.S., in not-so-subtle fashion. And it’ll be interesting to see what the parties submit on Friday in response to her order.

If, in the end, the NFL can’t substantiate the contention that the NFLPA asked for the discipline to be delayed beyond March 21, the impact could extend beyond Vilma’s defamation claim. Judge Berrigan will have caught the league with its fingers in the cookie jar of fabrication, which will influence to some extent the manner in which she views any other factual claims made by the league.

"What the hell are you doing Roger?"

Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL | ProFootballTalk

Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL
Posted by Mike Florio on August 15, 2012, 10:40 PM EDT
Roger Goodell AP

Judge Helen G. Berrigan issued an order today in the bounty cases. Though it contained no ruling, it hinted at a decision she may be thinking about making, specifically as to Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma’s defamation claim against Commissioner Roger Goodell.

Judge Berrigan has ordered the parties to identify by Friday at noon the date on which the NFLPA allegedly asked the NFL to defer disciplining players on March 21, the same day he disciplined the coaches and other non-players in the bounty case.

“The Court is aware that Goodell stated, during the March 21, 2012 interview with the NFL Network and ESPN, that he would have disciplined the players at the same time as the coaches but for the NFLPA’s indication that they ‘wanted some time to investigate [the allegations] and talk to its own players,’” Judge Berrigan writes in the order, a copy of which was obtained by PFT. “The Court is asking for the specific date on which this request occurred. If the date is already in the record, the parties may simply cite to the relevant document in the record; if it is not, then the parties shall submit the relevant evidence.”

Judge Berrigan apparently is trying to confirm — or debunk — the NFL’s claim that the decision to suspend the players already had been made at the time the league imposed discipline on the non-players. If the NFL hadn’t made the decision to suspend the players on or before March 21, then the statements made on March 21 by Goodell regarding Vilma could be viewed as unnecessary to the disciplinary process and thus not within the confines of Goodell’s job duties and, most importantly, completely beyond the scope of the labor agreement’s arbitration procedures.

In English, if Goodell actually hadn’t made the decision as to the players on March 21, Vilma’s defamation lawsuit can proceed in court.

At the August 10 hearing before Judge Berrigan, NFL outside counsel Gregg Levy reiterated the position that the decision was made as of March 21, but that the league waited at the union’s request. “[T]he Commissioner was prepared to issue his suspension decision with regard to the players at the same time that he disciplined the franchise and the coaches. But he held off doing that. He held off doing that because he was asked to do that by the Union, which represented to him that it was conducting its own investigation and no investigation ensued,” Levy said.

Judge Berrigan seems to be calling B.S., in not-so-subtle fashion. And it’ll be interesting to see what the parties submit on Friday in response to her order.

If, in the end, the NFL can’t substantiate the contention that the NFLPA asked for the discipline to be delayed beyond March 21, the impact could extend beyond Vilma’s defamation claim. Judge Berrigan will have caught the league with its fingers in the cookie jar of fabrication, which will influence to some extent the manner in which she views any other factual claims made by the league.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

They need to settle this. It turns out and offer was made to Vilma. 8 games but he turn it down. If this goes on it will turn ugly. Even more so.

Re: PFT:Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL
 

Just the status quo ... being his normal dumbass.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Hell no! Why settle when you did not do what you are being disciplined for? WHEN this goes on it will continue to get more ugly for Goodell.

You act as though you believe that there were truly bounties placed on opposing players as Goodell claimed. Is that what you believe? If not then there is no way in hell Vilma should settle. If you do believe that then ... I don't know what to think.

:brood:

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

So, if JV settles?
I was "kinda" a bounty hunter?

Vilma's actions have made it very clear.

All or nothing.

I applaud him :itsgood:

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

No that's not what I believe. I want the guy on the field. But he won't be if they don't find a middle ground. Yup all or nothing. Problem with that it just might be nothing.

Asylum please don't get all holier than thou. I'm just a Saints fan who wants the best team on the field.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Everyone knows my outspoken position but I'll say it again because I enjoy the "hippie" mentality I guess:

Vilma should absolutely NOT settle. No way. No how. Snowballs should first freeze in hell. Roger got this wrong. "IF" he can show that, reasonably speaking, there was a pay-for-performance (and I think he can) AND he can show factual evidence that Vilma did what he said, which is contribute 10 large to the program (and we know he cannot), then and only then should Vilma take a deal.

That's not an either or, but an "AND". Roger can't prove both, and he hasn't got anything on Vilma either, and I know it, and everyone here knows it, and Roger knows it. He and the NFL aren't even really arguing that (except in the media). Rather they are doing all they can do to hide behind a recognizably flawed CBA and are trying to establish Roger has authority that, amazingly, even with a flawed CBA, he doesn't truly have.

Roger does have great power, but he also has great responsibility to be fair. Why should Vilma be a mere tool in the NFL's last gasp effort to make fools of us all with this "we have always put player safety first" bull?

Answer: He should not.

Don't give in Vilma. Don't take a deal and demand a public retraction...BY ROGER...force him to publicly clear your name sir. You deserve it, and for that matter so does Goodell...

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

All I can say is, what a mess. gOD-hELL has done this to himself.
We're very close to the tide turning here.

This thing is about to get super complicated.
There are scenarios where settling may hurt the NFL more.
Others where staying the course and Vilma winning may or may not do it.

Remember it's about how the Judge handles this. She's reaching for the law now. A settlement precludes the NFL from going to the 8th circuit court of appeals and throwing out Judge Berrigan's decision.

Again, how "over-turnable" the eventual ruling may be depends on what direction in the law the Judge guides the court to rule... and it must rule in favor of Vilma.

Again, super complicated.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

He's in deep. Can the NFL appeal and how long will that take.

And just for the record All i ever said is for Jonthan Vilma to fight to the bitter end.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

And not a peep on ESPN. Figures.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Yeah, that is funny isn't it!
It's 11:30pm and nothing from the "mothership" of sports.
ESPN is about to go 0-2 in this week due to their LIES.
They're gonna get sued! :roflmao:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8239/espno.png

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

I was listening to their radio show the other day (I can't remember the show) and I swear man they sounded like a giant mouthpiece for the NFL.

I watch that station less and less. Matter of fact- I rarely watch that station.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Speaking of ESPN, just found this interesting nugget on twitter:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1397/tweetespn.png

UNC scandal referencing this

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Didn't the NFL deny that an offer was ever made?

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

They sure did.
They also claimed to have some (and I quote) "50,000 pages of documents" of evidence from the Bountygate scandal "investigation."

I want to repeat that again, so no one misunderstands: The NFL claimed in press releases and in explicit interviews to have "FIFTY THOUSAND PAGES OF DOCUMENTS" (50,000 PAGES) as evidence.

To give you the proportion of that LIE, let's put it into perspective.
Large 8.5x11 versions of the Bible at 10pt font are approximately 750 pages long.

To make up 50,000 pages, you would have to stack 66 large 8.5x11in Bibles (with 10pt font) one on top of the next to make a pile stack to qualify 50,000 pages.

Then, at the players hearing, the NFL presents the players about 20 page (?) PowerPoint presentation, of it several pages were completely fabricated from supposed "paper" with Gregg Williams & Vilma's handwriting on it that they did not want to show (probably because it was a forgery), so they FABRICATED IT (typed it up).

So, considering how GIGANTIC of a lie this probably is because landing at the 50,000 page number and putting it out there as FACT requires someone with a large imagination, I seriously can believe the NFL LIED about their settlement offer of reducing Vilma's suspension to 8 games.

Therefore, yes the NFL did deny it, but I cannot believe ANYTHING they say whatsoever.

Heck, they couldn't even confirm whether Tom Benson went to meet with Goodell yesterday...

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

That 50,000 about 2 weeks ago according to NFL Network when they interviewed RG, became 1800 pages.

Where did 1800 pages come from all of a sudden from the 50,000 or 18,000? I dunno, but they cant even seen to get the number of pages right.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

As of 4:36 AM.. still no report on the mother ship of sports.

:popcorn:

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Here is the catch and question. How badly does Vilma want to play?
If he settles, the suspension starts and 8 games later if healthy he can play.
If he fights, and the fight drags out a few months, which it will through appeals etc... he could win but never play this season.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

My point ! Thank you.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

If Vilma wins, he'll gain a huge settlement AND (eventually) get to play.

Best of both worlds!

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Lots more at stake for Vilma than just wanting to play this season. Life after football. It's narrow-minded to think he is just fighting for 8 or 10 game checks here.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Could we start a class action suit against the kommisar for damages? I can't be the only person out here that has a headache from all of this. The least he could do is spring for some aspirin for us.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

The only thing Vilma does not have on his personal side is time.

At 31 with a bad knee, and a career on the decline....

His knee is a HUGE problem. He injured his knee on September 18th 2011 then had his knee scoped around Nov 7th 2011...... Nine months later he is not ready to play.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

hahaha, that's brilliant. So true!

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

When someone of importance steps to a microphone and says, "We have 50,000 pages of evidence, proving that "someone" placed injury bounties on opposing team players"; I don't care who you are, you believe that team did what they are being accused of. Like HALO said, that's a lot of paper!

I want that 50,000 pages to be shown! Prove it to me and to the rest of the world! If they have it; fine. If they don't; whoa be unto Goodell and the SOB's that have tried their best to tarnish our team. And not just because it's our team, but the NFL could have done this to any other team in the leauge. Other fans and teams of the NFL should be demanding this also.

If the NFL gets away with this, they will do it to another team(s) in the future.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

I understand the need for a middle ground but NO!!! Vilma needs to take the commish and the league to task with this. If you did not do something and being accused you fight for that; all or nothing is what Vilma is basically requesting either you produce the evidence you have or let us play cause you have nothing - Vilma is doing the right thing for him in this case

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Scratch that earlier comment about one knee procedure.... Apparently he had had three procedures.

Affidavit reveals that Jonathan Vilma has had three procedures performed on left knee - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Precisely why he needs to go for the GOLD!

:popcorn:

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

I did the math here, and I figured for the 2009 season - present, oh wait i did not count the preseason games, but I figured that we have played 54 regular season and playoff games. If the NFL says they have 50,000 pages of evidence, that comes out to be 925.92 pages per game. There is no way possible, that they could have that much evidence. What a gross exxageration on the part of the NFL to blatantly slander our team, in an effort to turn every fan in the NFL who is not a Saint Fan against us. Im not a lawyer, but I cant understand why the Judge, cant provide a court order to the NFL to produce all 50,000 pages of evidence or leave her with no choice but to rule in favor of Vilma. I have a red button that reads Bullsh*t and when pressed, it proclaims a few sayings, such as BS alert BS alert!!! I think the judge needs one of these on her desk, for when the NFL representatives start talking.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

be careful what you wish for.....

1. If there is just ONE piece in those 50k pages that is believable or factual Vilma is done.

2. The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

"The last thing the judge wants to do is have to read 50,000 pages of evidence LOL."


I have a hard time reading 1 page of anything from the NFL, must less 50,000, so I definitely see your point there.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

I kinda remember something about the NFLPA asking for them to delay the suspensions so the could do their own investigation.......but I also remember the NFL stating publicly that they WOULD NOT delay the suspensions to the players. So yeah....NFL is screwed any way they slice it.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

According to the CBA, wasn't Goodell supposed to turn over all evidence that he used to decide punishment of the players?

Quote from court filing a couple weeks ago...

"Article 46, Section 2(ii) of the CBA -- which mandates that the league turn over any evidence they plan to use to Vilma three days prior to the appeal -- and wrote that since the league said it had 55,000 pages of evidence "it is simply impossible that Goodell only considered the evidence produced prior to the appeal hearing, both because 180 pages do not come close to justifying any punishment and because it is humanly impossible to block out, and not consider, 99 percent of the information gathered."

So if one of those other 50,000 pages does have some type of evidence, then Goodell violated the CBA again.


And this in another part of this whole thing that I can't understand. Many rumors are going around that Goodell is protecting his sources. I don't know where they started but If that's true, then he is again in violation of the CBA. I would think that alone would be enough for the judge to step in and nullify Goodells decision.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

No.. that is a common misconception.... He does not have to turn over ANYTHING he used to make his judgement... At this point, or until a Judge tells him to.

He DID have to turn over ANYTHING he planned to use in that appeal hearing. For appeal hearings the big picture is not important (to the process), he only had to make available what the NFL planned to use in that specific appeals hearing so the NFLPA could prepare argument.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Which is why the hearing was complete BS and bias. Because the "evidence" provided to the NFLPA was complete garbage. How can the NFLPA prepare and argument when its all circumstantial and pretty much just a typed up memo of what the NFL SAYS it has and a sorry excuse for a power point presentation. All of which would be thrown out in an actual courtroom. How can they defend against something that isn't there. This isn't Ghostbusters...

The NFL is trying desperately to hide behind that CBA but it violated the CBA themselves and expects a judge to just accept that. They have put themselves in a deep whole because they thought Vilma and the players would just accept the tarnishing of their reputations without fighting back. The NFL is losing all credibility because its doing what they accuse the Saints organization of doing....being arrogant. They never expected Vilma to take it this far because they have this notion in their head that these players are complete idiots and will take anything because they don't know any better.....now their seeing that a lot of these players are a lot smarter than what they give them credit for.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

That is standard procedure for an appeals hearing... Even when battleing for unemployment from a company that severs someone.

Trust me..... been there. They only have to give what they plan to use to justify their case in that hearing. They can save the rest for the next appeal, firewood, etc...

Why would they have to submit what they do not plan to use? If the roles were reversed the NFLPA would only give up what they planned to use for that particular hearing.... Saving the rest for a future fight.

It is what it is..... And I should remind everyone.. "IT" is what the NFLPA agreed upon. Thanks DeMaurice Smith.

The rest could incriminate other players and they do not have to release that. The rest could absolve Vilma and they do not have to release that... Its up to the NFLPA to discover what they need.

Speaking of discovery..... I still have a major issue with the NFLPA not subpoenaing Greg Williams, Roger Goodell, and all parties involved with the "supposed" infractions or the investigation.... So that they could get their own answers... Not getting their own evidence means they are constantly on the Defense instead of the offense... I have yet to see where the NFLPA has filed a motion to get the NFL to turn all 50k pages over.. They asked, but not legally.

NFL wins the Time of Possession battle.

Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell
 

Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website

If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay.

Looks like this is getting interesting...

League story - Player suspensions dated May 02
Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com