New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com

New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com (https://blackandgold.com/community/)
-   Saints (https://blackandgold.com/saints/)
-   -   Mark Ingram's Woes (https://blackandgold.com/saints/51017-mark-ingrams-woes.html)

TheOak 09-27-2012 08:14 AM

Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Ingram is getting beat up because his productivity is down... A few reasons why it is down this year.


Ingram's issues of his own making - Has yet to prove that he can pass block or pick up on the blitz. This is his problem he needs to fix to get on the field more.


Ingrams issues of the Coaches making - Ingram has been in the game for 43 snaps this season and has run the ball 27 of those. That means 62% of the time if Ingram is on the field he is getting the ball and running it. That is the highest in the league... Defenses know, if Ingram is in he will probably get the ball... This is telegraphing and telling the defenses to key on him.

I alluded to the Saints letting opposing defenses know what we are doing in another thread. We have done nothing creative this year.. Defenses are not sitting back anymore against the Manning's, Brees's, and Brady's, they are coming after them.

Danno 09-27-2012 08:21 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Ingram is probably one of our better pass protectors.

Where did you get that from?

Let me guess... he missed one block this weekend and now he can't pass protect.

TheOak 09-27-2012 08:22 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 443742)
Ingram is probably one of our better pass protectors.

Where did you get that from?

Let me guess... he missed one block this weekend and now he can't pass protect.


Dont get sassy.

WhoDat!656 09-27-2012 08:57 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I alluded to the Saints letting opposing defenses know what we are doing in another thread. We have done nothing creative this year.. Defenses are not sitting back anymore against the Manning's, Brees's, and Brady's, they are coming after them.

That is because Payton isn't calling plays this year.

Beastmode 09-27-2012 09:26 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Without a doubt, way too predictable when he's in the game. Have to change that or we will see him getting stuffed for 3 yard losses as the season wears on. I'd like to see some FB help or a flee flicker to break the cycle up.

Shoe. 09-27-2012 09:32 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I don't think I've seen us run a screen to Ingram.

I know PT is THE man regarding screen pass success in the entire league, not just on the Saints, but we really need some 'misdirection' to our play calling

TheOak 09-27-2012 09:34 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoDat!656 (Post 443754)
I alluded to the Saints letting opposing defenses know what we are doing in another thread. We have done nothing creative this year.. Defenses are not sitting back anymore against the Manning's, Brees's, and Brady's, they are coming after them.

That is because Payton isn't calling plays this year.

Which tells me the coaches are cruising and afraid to do what they know how to do. They are choosing the safe route.. "what they have done before", only the roadrunner doesn't fall for those tricks more than once.

We do not have to worry about losing our coaches to other teams... Other teams know they are too scared to use the creativity that they have.

At this point we should be going outside of the box... Fake punt on first down, Wide Receivers as corner backs.. no one is catching the ball on either side anyway, Shanle as full back, 3-4 or 2-5 defense... Mix it up.. Our problem is predictability.

Danno 09-27-2012 09:35 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Its certainly predictable. Way too many times the 1st defender to hit Ingram is almost always a yard or two in our own backfield.

TheOak 09-27-2012 09:36 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoe. (Post 443763)
I don't think I've seen us run a screen to Ingram.

I know PT is THE man regarding screen pass success in the entire league, not just on the Saints, but we really need some 'misdirection' to our play calling

Exactly. Ant opposing Defenses know all of this.

I could be Completely wrong because I am going off memory... I think I remember GW's defenses hoping around the field as much as possible before the snap. Presently i think we line up and stay that way.. QB's no longer have to guess much.

SaintsBro 09-27-2012 09:41 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
When he comes into the game, it always is that same one play, up the middle, smacking into Bushrod or DeLa Puente. And for some reason when he is in there in the backfield, it looks like a completely different team out there than the Saints we're used to. He's not integrated into the existing offense at all -- it's this weird thing where everybody on the team stops what they're doing, and says to defense, OKAY, NOW WE'RE LINING UP TO DO THE INGRAM PLAY. And then they go back to looking like the Saints again, as soon as he jogs off.

It's actually a momentum killer! I think it's part of the mystery of the 3-and-outs and why they're happening. It's the entirely predictable playcalling. At first I thought they might be trying to lull defenses to sleep with Ingram, and saving some of the screens and splashy Ingram plays for later in the year, division games and so forth... but with our record, that time has already come and gone -- if they have something up their sleeve with him, they need to do it NOW.

Mardigras9 09-27-2012 09:42 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
PT gets hit just as early, he just breaks tackles more consistantly.

Shoe. 09-27-2012 09:43 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Maybe its time for a dose of Ivory.

That dude just PUNISHES people when he hits them, in a way I've never seen Ingram manage to do.

Now, Ivory also hurts himself more, so take that how you will.

Halo 09-27-2012 10:24 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I honestly root for the kid every-time he's on the field because we spent a 1st round pick on him and he's good.

That said, I think the Saints have no business drafting running backs in the 1st round. In fact, going forward, they need to ONLY draft d-line and and DB's. Only think on offense the Saints need to draft for the next 4 years are o-linemen.

Loomis is so good at finding hidden talent, half our runningbacks are trades, undrafted/underrated players or late round picks.

Beastmode 09-27-2012 10:34 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoDat!656 (Post 443754)
I alluded to the Saints letting opposing defenses know what we are doing in another thread. We have done nothing creative this year.. Defenses are not sitting back anymore against the Manning's, Brees's, and Brady's, they are coming after them.

That is because Payton isn't calling plays this year.

With Payton you could exspect the unexspected every game. That element of surprise is gone. Have to get out of this comfort zone. Onsides kick to start this week, I would have no problem with that at all. A fake field goal, something other than just going through the motions. I would not even run Ingram up the middle.

AlaskaSaints 09-27-2012 10:55 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I like you Shoe. Any friend of Ivory is a friend of mine.

;-]]

I want so badly for Ingram to have a breakout year, but I just don't think he's got it in him.

In the future, get the guy who DIDN'T get the Heisman. He's always a better player.

Alaska

SaintsBro 09-27-2012 10:59 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I don't have time to do it, it's probably not really worth actually figuring it out, but I would LOVE to revisit the playcalling of Ingram's first six games, when Payton was calling the plays for him. Were they all inside runs up the middle, or was Sean Payton doing different things with him, in the games leading up to Payton's injury in Tampa Bay? I really can't remember, but it would be interesting to look back and see. Is this what Payton really had in mind?

I do remember seeing this familiar up-the-middle thing happening, late in the year last year. But it was Pierre Thomas who really busted out and took over the Lions game in the playoffs, as I recall.

But Ingram's numbers for this THIS year compared to last year are just pathetic. Something's wrong and it's not Grubbs, because Grubbs is grading so high.

I am watching this Youtube video right now of "Mark Ingram Highlights" from Alabama, and he is running all over the place -- inside, outside, screens, sideline around the ends, passes over the middle, catching the ball and reversing direction to the total opposite side of the field... It looks nothing like what we are getting from him here.

TheOak 09-27-2012 11:32 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Good point SaintsBro... A light bulb just went off..

You can never have too many runningbacks... Correct.

You CAN have too many niche running backs... Apparently using a different back as a tool for a specific play tells the defense who is coming at them with what.

Boutte 09-27-2012 04:20 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I'm one of those people who usually says something to the effect of "The coaches know a lot more than us so quit acting like you're qualified to criticize." In this case though I think we're right. Give the guy the same chance the other backs get. At this point he might as well have a target on jersey instead of a number.

(And I'm by no means one of his fans.)

AlaskaSaints 09-27-2012 05:22 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
If only coaches read fanboards...

Every week, someone on this board hits it DEAD ON. Not the same person every time, but someone is always right on.

Alaska

burningmetal 09-27-2012 05:47 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
There was never a good reason to draft Ingram. They tried to tell us he was versatile, but I never saw that in college and I surely don't see it now. There is a reason that Mark always carries the ball when he's in there. It's all he really seems to know how to do, and he sucks at that too, I'm sorry to say.

Did not Maurice Jones-Drew lead the league in rushing last year despite playing in a horrible offense with the worst quarterback in the league, at the time? You think teams weren't keying in on him? quit making excuses for Ingram... He's a bust, period. Frankly, even if he were good it would still have been a bad pick based on needs.

Danno 09-27-2012 05:54 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 443939)
He's a bust, period. Frankly, even if he were good it would still have been a bad pick based on needs.

Wrong, based on needs he should have been our 1st pick over Jordan.

burningmetal 09-27-2012 05:58 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 443942)
Wrong, based on needs he should have been our 1st pick over Jordan.

That's a blind statement. Do you remember how bad our defense was and still is? I didn't like the Jordan pick at all, but I definitely wanted defense. Getting an OT wouldn't have hurt my feelings either, but there really weren't any worth taking at that point, as I remember.

burningmetal 09-27-2012 06:09 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
We ran out of backs at the end of the '10 season because of an unprecedented amount of injuries. Those guys were coming back. But even if they hadn't, remember this: we scored 36 points with no running game against Seattle and still LOST. And we all remember how bad the Seahawks were against everyone else that year.

We needed defense.

ChrisXVI 09-27-2012 06:13 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Damn right we needed defense. It was the right pick too... Cameron Jordan is our best D-Lineman now. I know, I know... that's not saying much lol.

Danno 09-27-2012 06:14 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 443947)
That's a blind statement. Do you remember how bad our defense was and still is? I didn't like the Jordan pick at all, but I definitely wanted defense. Getting an OT wouldn't have hurt my feelings either, but there really weren't any worth taking at that point, as I remember.

Do you remember the only RB who's NFL future wasn't in doubt was Reggie Bush? And it would have cost us 12 million to keep him? There were serious doubt as to whether PT and Ivory would ever play another down in the NFL.

Do you remember Julius Jones and DeShawn Wynn were our only RB's?

We drafted 6 players that year, all but Ingram were on the defensive side of the ball.

Over the last 4 seasons we've drafted 20 players, 12 were defense and 8 were offense.

burningmetal 09-27-2012 06:21 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 443954)
Do you remember the only RB who's NFL future wasn't in doubt was Reggie Bush? And it would have cost us 12 million to keep him? There were serious doubt as to whether PT and Ivory would ever play another down in the NFL.

Do you remember Julius Jones and DeShawn Wynn were our only RB's?

We drafted 6 players that year, all but Ingram were on the defensive side of the ball.

Over the last 4 seasons we've drafted 20 players, 12 were defense and 8 were offense.

See my above post, first.

I'll add in response that there was never a question as whether any of those players careers were in doubt. It was how effective would they be when they recovered, and how long would it take them to recover. Yet, again, we still scored 36 points against Seattle.

The Saints have drafted a lot of low round defenders. I'm talking about first round. How many impact defenders have we drafted recently? I'll echo something that someone else in here said, and that is that we have gotten the majority of our offensive talent in late rounds or as rookie free agents. There was no reason to panic and draft Ingram.

Danno 09-27-2012 06:30 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 443958)
See my above post, first.

I'll add in response that there was never a question as whether any of those players careers were in doubt. It was how effective would they be when they recovered, and how long would it take them to recover. Yet, again, we still scored 36 points against Seattle.

The Saints have drafted a lot of low round defenders. I'm talking about first round. How many impact defenders have we drafted recently? I'll echo something that someone else in here said, and that is that we have gotten the majority of our offensive talent in late rounds or as rookie free agents. There was no reason to panic and draft Ingram.

I don't think we've drafted any impact players on either side of the ball in the 1st round. What makes you think we would have drafted one with the Ingram pick? In fact, the closest we've come to an impact player in the 1st round was Reggie Bush, a running back.

Jankman8 09-27-2012 06:37 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Gotta agree with Danno. At that time the Ingram pick made perfect sense! Right now I have to agree with the other board members that the playcalling is the main problem. You know a run up the middle is coming if he is on the field, so that needs to chance asap.

ChrisXVI 09-27-2012 07:47 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
There was never any doubt that PT or Ivory would play another down in the NFL! I don't know where you get that at all. As far as never drafting an impact player in the first round, like I said: Cameron Jordan is doing a fantastic job as a run-stopping DE.

|Mitch| 09-27-2012 08:03 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 443979)
There was never any doubt that PT or Ivory would play another down in the NFL!

Actually Pierre Thomas did have a significant knee injury and it was very unsure if he'd ever be 100% again, and Ivory gets himself injured quite easily with his running style...

ChrisXVI 09-27-2012 08:09 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
With Ivory I can see your point, but there was never any thought that he'd never play again. As for Pierre, he pretty much had a high ankle sprain. You guys actually thought he was done for good?!

burningmetal 09-27-2012 08:31 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 443987)
With Ivory I can see your point, but there was never any thought that he'd never play again. As for Pierre, he pretty much had a high ankle sprain. You guys actually thought he was done for good?!

That's exactly right. It was a high ankle sprain. Some people don't remember too well, and think it was a knee injury. And Ivory had a foot injury.

I keep hearing people say that some people have trouble coming back from a lisfranc (I believe it's called) injury, but I have never been shown anything to suggest it's career ending. All the reports were that the surgery went well and he'd be back. It took a little time, but there wasn't any serious doubt about whether we'd have enough healthy backs. So the Saints draft a running back anyway. Then of course they signed Sproles, but that was a smart move because he was a proven guy and he was a free agent.

|Mitch| 09-27-2012 08:36 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 443987)
With Ivory I can see your point, but there was never any thought that he'd never play again. As for Pierre, he pretty much had a high ankle sprain. You guys actually thought he was done for good?!

Really? Then why did he have knee surgery in the offseason for? He's had 2 maybe 3 knee surgeries in the last 3-4 years

burningmetal 09-27-2012 08:40 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 443959)
I don't think we've drafted any impact players on either side of the ball in the 1st round. What makes you think we would have drafted one with the Ingram pick? In fact, the closest we've come to an impact player in the 1st round was Reggie Bush, a running back.

Reggie Bush was drafted when we had no offense or defense. Robert Meachem was drafted in the first round and had a couple productive seasons. But drafting defenders in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds has not worked out too well. The Saints have been great at mining offensive talent in low rounds, but defensively they need to draft higher. Now I'll give them a pass from this past draft because we didn't have a high pick.

But they should have gone after a pass rusher instead of Jordan, who is a run stuffer, and with the Ingram pick maybe they could have gotten someone more in the mold of Jordan... Maybe even him, if he would have still been available. But a running back? They could have gotten that later on.

burningmetal 09-27-2012 08:47 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by |Mitch| (Post 443992)
Really? Then why did he have knee surgery in the offseason for? He's had 2 maybe 3 knee surgeries in the last 3-4 years

He had ankle surgery. Google it or something if you don't believe me. and we're talking the offseason of '10. Any surgery he might have had before then does not pertain to this subject. He was not coming off a major knee injury. It was an ankle problem.

|Mitch| 09-27-2012 08:54 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 443997)
He had ankle surgery. Google it or something if you don't believe me. and we're talking the offseason of '10. Any surgery he might have had before then does not pertain to this subject. He was not coming off a major knee injury. It was an ankle problem.

His ankle problem was in the '10 season, he had knee surgery at the end of the '09 season

burningmetal 09-27-2012 09:13 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by |Mitch| (Post 443998)
His ankle problem was in the '10 season, he had knee surgery at the end of the '09 season

Which brings me back to my point. He was not coming off knee surgery going into the '11 season. So why again did anyone think his career might be over? You might not think it, but I'm trying to be patient. I've been arguing this point with various people since the Saints drafted Ingram, and no one has any facts to back up their claims.

|Mitch| 09-27-2012 10:24 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 443999)
Which brings me back to my point. He was not coming off knee surgery going into the '11 season. So why again did anyone think his career might be over? You might not think it, but I'm trying to be patient. I've been arguing this point with various people since the Saints drafted Ingram, and no one has any facts to back up their claims.

Ingram was drafted because by the end of the Seattle playoff game, we had what one active RB available?

That whole season our RB's battled injuries...

mutineer10 09-27-2012 11:02 PM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
I only wish Mark Ingram was our biggest problem!

Marlboro Man 09-28-2012 02:15 AM

Re: Mark Ingram's Woes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastmode (Post 443760)
Without a doubt, way too predictable when he's in the game. Have to change that or we will see him getting stuffed for 3 yard losses as the season wears on. I'd like to see some FB help or a flee flicker to break the cycle up.

You'll see him getting stuffed for 3 yard losses no matter what you do with him. Wasted pick and he ain't gonna do nothing.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 AM.


Copyright 1997 - 2020 - BlackandGold.com