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Conspiracy Theory

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Well 626 you have lost me on believing in your theory, my friend, because there is no indication AT ALL in the record that the Saints were being investigated prior to the spring of 2010 after the NFC Championship. It ...

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Old 10-11-2012, 10:08 AM   #21
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Well 626 you have lost me on believing in your theory, my friend, because there is no indication AT ALL in the record that the Saints were being investigated prior to the spring of 2010 after the NFC Championship. It ALL started with the playoffs and with the Vikings whining about the Championship game, not before. Every single source agrees on this: the players, the media, the lawyers, the NFL itself.

Re-read the NY Times article you just linked to and quoted from:

The investigation, led by the N.F.L.’s vice president for security, Jeffrey Miller, the former commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police, began in 2010, when an unnamed player accused the Saints of targeting opponents, including Favre and Kurt Warner, who as quarterback of the Arizona Cardinals briefly left a playoff game against the Saints after taking a hard hit. That player retracted the allegation, which could not be corroborated at the time, but the investigation was revived in the latter part of the 2011 season when the N.F.L. received what it called significant and credible new information."

The "before the playoffs" you mention refers to the 2011 season, when they came to Benson circa the Lions game, not the playoffs of the 2009-10 season. That's why it was "new information" as opposed to just "information" -- this was round II of the investigation, after they had "told the Saints to stop" in early 2010 but supposedly they/Loomis (really Gregg Williams) didn't.

There was no "announcement" of the original investigation in 2010, no one knew in the public about it, at all, until much much later. In 2010 there was just some grumbling from Childress in an interview and Kluwe whining about it on the radio and the pictures of Favre's hip or thigh or whatever it was, posted on the internet.

I like that you are thinking critically about it and trying to piece it together, but your timeline is just off -- none of this was going on in regards to the Saints before the Vikings game, earlier in the 2009 season, none of it regarding the Saints. The 2009 congressional hearing on concussions that spooked Goodell so bad, were in LATE October of 2009.

I actually agree with you, that Benson is kind of holding his tongue, and sitting on the fence a little bit, in regards to the concussion thing. But I don't think it's nearly as sinister as you guys think it is. I think it is other reasons -- namely, he is hosting a Super Bowl in a couple months and can't say anything too bad or fight back too hard until that's over.

Also, one last thing -- there is no mystery or conspiracy why the Freeh Report has not been released -- it has not been finished yet. It could take a while. The Penn State one he did, took like six months and included formal interviews with hundreds of people. It's only been 4-5 months, so give the man some time.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:47 AM   #22
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Originally Posted by x626xBlack View Post
This was well underway and going on before the Vikings game.
"The league said that the Saints’ owner, Tom Benson, cooperated with the investigation and that when he was made aware of the new information in January before the playoffs, he told Loomis to stop the bounties immediately. Loomis did not take any action, the league said. When the initial allegation was made in 2010, Loomis denied any knowledge of the bounties and pledged that he would make sure no program was in place. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/sp...opponents.html

So no.. The investigation did not come out of the NFC Championship game against the Vikings... it was in full swing before.
The League says a lot of things, but we know they aren't necessarily true.
As of today, I have not heard any allegations, any accusations, any information that points to any alleged bounty on anyone prior to the Vikings game. How did the league know this was happening? Who accused the Saints of putting bounties on players, and on which players, prior to the Vikings game? How did the league warned Benson? How did Benson warned Loomis? If it came from the league, given how lawyer-happy they are, wouldn't the warnings be in writing? Where are the written warnings?

As far as I know, for the information that has been made public, this all started with the Childress allegations of the Saints putting a bounty on Farve. It was later that people threw in the name Kurt Warner in there, and only because the shot he took.

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Old 10-12-2012, 06:52 AM   #23
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Tobias/SaintsBro - Bounties are systemic. They have been part of the NFL for decades. To say all of this started in the NFC 2010 Championship game is to ignore that coaches/players/owners/Goodell/Rozell/Tagliabue all have known about them for many many years.

Redskins coach George Allen had a bounty on Cowboys QB Roger Staubach, former player says | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

Its also been known that Williams had bounty programs in Buffalo, and Washington. The league says they were cleared and found no evidence...
Washington Redskins, Buffalo Bills cleared in NFL bounty investigation, report says - ESPN

They mean no evidence except for confessions.
"A former Redskins coach and five players said Friday that the team’s defense under Williams had a system to reward players with cash for hits that knocked opponents from games. Former defensive end Phillip Daniels, now the Redsksins’ director of player development, defended Williams, saying the approach promoted “good, hard football.”
Report: Gregg Williams may have used bounty incentive while coaching NFL's Buffalo Bills, Washington Redskins - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN

"“Let’s be clear: the reason that the Hogs did that Hogs Night Out poster...was, in the meeting after the game, Joe Gibbs would come in, he’d have a fistful of $100 bills,” Starke said. “And if Dexter knocked the quarterback down three times, he would get three hundred-dollar bills. And Joe would pass the money out in the meeting, and we would have to duck. "
George Starke: Joe Gibbs would hand out 100 dollar bills for hits on QBs - DC Sports Bog - The Washington Post

To say that because "its not on the internet" and no "internet indication" of investigations prior to the public announcement means you believe that the League has been completely honest and forth coming.

The bounty systems have been the publicly unspoken tabu at least since Roger Staubach played. The league needs something to defend them selves with in court so they can cover up covering up the known effects of concussions.

We were a scape goat, the sacrificial lamb.

Unless you can convince me of a reason why "all of a sudden" after over 40 years the NFL felt it was time to stop this I am not going to think other than my OP.

Unless you can convince me of what the Saints did that no one else has done to warrant them being singled out and have a season systematically destroyed.. I will not believe other wise.

With all due respect, saying its not on the internet or the NFL didn't say something is not reason to believe that it didn't happen or wasn't there.

Tobias- You sort of contradict your self here.
"The League says a lot of things, but we know they aren't necessarily true.
As of today, I have not heard any allegations, any accusations, any information that points to any alleged bounty on anyone prior to the Vikings game."

The source that you state is not a trustworthy source is being completely forthcoming? Lets be honest... ALL of the information that is our there was provided in whole or part by the league. They control the flow of information and or disinformation. I would put money on the fact that the league has skeletons in its closet we will NEVER know about. All corporations do.

The League has hand picked one team out of 32 to lay ALL of this on, roasting one team in 2012 for something that has gone on for over 40 years.

Why?

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Old 10-12-2012, 07:00 AM   #24
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Originally Posted by SaintsBro View Post

The "before the playoffs" you mention refers to the 2011 season, when they came to Benson circa the Lions game, not the playoffs of the 2009-10 season. That's why it was "new information" as opposed to just "information" -- this was round II of the investigation, after they had "told the Saints to stop" in early 2010 but supposedly they/Loomis (really Gregg Williams) didn't.
That wasn't how I read it... you may be correct. I am not one to believe that just because its not public knowledge it didn't happen. Long before official investigations happen there are preliminary investigations. Prelims are rarely public knowledge.

I just found something: The investigation WAS going on in Jan 2010, during the 2009 Season.

Page 6 of 7

"14. Prior to the Super Bowl game at the end of the 2009 NFL season (which was played on February 7, 2010) Micky Loomis told me that a Minnesota Vikings player had told the NFL that the Vikings player had heard about a "bounty" that had been placed on Brett Favre by the Saints. I later learned that the NFL was conducting an investigation".
http://media.nola.com/saints_impact/...209%202012.pdf

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Last edited by TheOak; 10-12-2012 at 07:20 AM..
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:15 AM   #25
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Tobias/SaintsBro - Bounties are systemic. They have been part of the NFL for decades. To say all of this started in the NFC 2010 Championship game is to ignore that coaches/players/owners/Goodell/Rozell/Tagliabue all have known about them for many many years.

Redskins coach George Allen had a bounty on Cowboys QB Roger Staubach, former player says | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

Its also been known that Williams had bounty programs in Buffalo, and Washington. The league says they were cleared and found no evidence...
Washington Redskins, Buffalo Bills cleared in NFL bounty investigation, report says - ESPN

They mean no evidence except for confessions.
"A former Redskins coach and five players said Friday that the team’s defense under Williams had a system to reward players with cash for hits that knocked opponents from games. Former defensive end Phillip Daniels, now the Redsksins’ director of player development, defended Williams, saying the approach promoted “good, hard football.”
Report: Gregg Williams may have used bounty incentive while coaching NFL's Buffalo Bills, Washington Redskins - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN

"“Let’s be clear: the reason that the Hogs did that Hogs Night Out poster...was, in the meeting after the game, Joe Gibbs would come in, he’d have a fistful of $100 bills,” Starke said. “And if Dexter knocked the quarterback down three times, he would get three hundred-dollar bills. And Joe would pass the money out in the meeting, and we would have to duck. "
George Starke: Joe Gibbs would hand out 100 dollar bills for hits on QBs - DC Sports Bog - The Washington Post

To say that because "its not on the internet" and no "internet indication" of investigations prior to the public announcement means you believe that the League has been completely honest and forth coming. Items disappear from the internet all the time. Presently both links I had posted a while back to the official statements from both Williams and Curillo are dead.. gone... no statements to be found... Hell recently the whistleblower title went from Mike Cerullo to Jimmy Kennedy... WTF? There is (was) a legal statement from Cerullo!

NFL says its Mike Cerullo and he should be commended
NFL says Mike Cerullo should be “commended” for coming forward | ProFootballTalk

NFL Says its Jimmy Kennedy
Of whistleblowers and witnesses | ProFootballTalk

Williams Statement is here... Cerullos vanished for some reason
Former New Orleans Saints assistant Mike Cerullo taking center stage in bounty controversy - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com

The bounty systems have been the publicly unspoken tabu at least since Roger Staubach played. The league needs something to defend them selves with in court so they can cover up covering up the known effects of concussions.

We were a scape goat, the sacrificial lamb.

Unless you can convince me of a reason why "all of a sudden" after over 40 years the NFL felt it was time to stop this I am not going to think other than my OP.

Unless you can convince me of what the Saints did that no one else has done to warrant them being singled out and have a season systematically destroyed.. I will not believe other wise.

With all due respect, saying its not on the internet or the NFL didn't say something is not reason to believe that it didn't happen or wasn't there.

Tobias- You sort of contradict your self here.
"The League says a lot of things, but we know they aren't necessarily true.
As of today, I have not heard any allegations, any accusations, any information that points to any alleged bounty on anyone prior to the Vikings game."

The source that you state is not a trustworthy source is being completely forthcoming? Lets be honest... ALL of the information that is our there was provided in whole or part by the league. They control the flow of information and or disinformation. I would put money on the fact that the league has skeletons in its closet we will NEVER know about. All corporations do.

The League has hand picked one team out of 32 to lay ALL of this on, roasting one team in 2012 for something that has gone on for over 40 years.

Why?

If you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:08 PM   #26
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

In a weird way this makes Benson's NY visit to goodell make more sense.

He never went to goodell to fuss or raise a ruckus. He went to tell him to keep doing what he's doing and ignore everything he's hearing. Benson was perfectly happy to have roger do these things (suspensions, re-suspensions) because it doesn't hurt the Saints bottom line, in fact it probably helps it by more people buying Saints merch to "support the team through these tough times" and by more people paying attention while this is all over the news (no press is bad press). It also helps Benson because it helps the NFL build some kind of BS case showing how they were taking action for player safety. Benson doesn't care if these guys get suspended, because at the end of the day he's not making one cent less, and he's still got the meat shield that is goodell to take the flack and arm the NFL's lawyers for the upcoming court battle.

Can't believe I didn't see it this way until now...
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #27
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Here is a Q for ya Shoe....

Why has there only been 1 trip? I would have made a dozen by now. I would have been in Goodell's office when MY players spoke and gave testimony. I would have been there when MY players and coaches appealed.

I may have not said peep... But MY arse would have been there, to at least support.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #28
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Originally Posted by jnormand View Post
I'm completely lost....this reminds me of the Sicillian on Princess of the Bride.

Clearly I couldn't choose the cup in front of you. But you knowing I was intelligent and wouldn't choose the cup in front of you means that I clearly couldn't choose the cup in front of me.

LMAO!
Wot he said
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:18 PM   #29
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

Well the part of the theory that loses me is saying that (a) the bounty investigation of the SAINTS started in 2009, sometime BEFORE the Vikings game, because it just plain didn't; and (b) the idea that Benson is some how into it, or behind it. I jump off the train before you guys go into that particular tunnel.

Yeah, I think Benson might be "sittin' on the fence" a little bit, as far as the concussion lawsuits go, but it's not like he was in some smoke-filled room with Goodell, cooking this whole thing up. I don't care how rich you are, you do not cough up a half million dollar fine and feel good about it. You do not unilaterally volunteer to "take one for the team" with that kind of money and ESPECIALLY if the results in court from these lawsuits are not guaranteed.

Benson was blindsided by all this, and he was royally pissed.

The people who want Benson to fight this thing MORE than he has, or who think his "silence" means he's complicit in it or is in favor of it.... why is there always this mad scramble to throw people under the bus on this Bounty thing, to make them a part of it. People were saying Shockey was the snitch, people were saying it all must be true because Payton didn't fight it and wasn't saying anything, that Fujita was the snitch because he left us for the Browns, stuff like that. Not you in particular, just in general.

I say Benson IS fighting it. I know everybody wants Benson to kick and scream, cuss, raise a stink, put on a show, but it's not like that. That's not how these things work. If you have a meeting, and Goodell basically puts out his palm and says "talk to the hand, I'm not listening" then there is no point in having other future meetings with him to plead your case. You have to work AROUND. You have to work behind. Over. Under.

626, Benson DID sit there in the room during meetings when his coaches appealed, in support, and stand by them. Back in March. In New York. Definitely with Payton and I think also with Loomis. He has had MORE THAN ONE meeting with Goodell on this topic.

Benson WAS there, with Payton at the appeal.
Tom Benson, Sean Payton spent the weekend in New York | ProFootballTalk

And he "promoted" Loomis temporarily to the Hornets, and the PR statement from that hire was like a giant FU to Goodell, talking about Loomis' skill and integrity and knowledge and stuff like that. Goodell takes Loomis' job away, Benson turns right around and gives him another one. A giant Eff You Roger.

Plus Benson is very hamstrung, in that he is hosting a Super Bowl in a couple of months. He CANNOT rock the boat right now, or start a big brouhaha, in the league, with that coming up. He just can't.

As far as Benson vs. Goodell goes....With these kinds of things, you need leverage. It's like a Night of The Long Knives type deal -- you want to be stealthy, you want to be ninja, and you DON'T pull the blade out until you have all your ducks in a row and you KNOW you've got the clean shot -- if I'm Tom Benson right now, I don't even give off a WHIFF of attacking Goodell, or being down on him, against him, unless you KNOW you have the votes from the other owners and you KNOW you have it in the bag if you get them all in a room and call a vote to sack him. It takes time. But that's how it works.

I know people also like to say, "Goodell works for the owners, and that's Benson, so why doesn't he fire Goodell" and all that, but it's really not that simple. Goodell is in fact there to sort of police or regulate the owners, they consent to it. If you get arrested by a cop, you can't just say to the cop, "Well, I am a taxpayer, I pay your salary, so you have to let me go!" It just doesn't work like that. It's more complicated.

Concussions, absolutely yes. Benson, deeply involved, probably not. That's how I see it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:36 PM   #30
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Re: Conspiracy Theory

This sounds a lot like my conspiracy theory! Was it me? If not, you have two people who are wont to agree. Don't forget the part about the season being more profitable if the Saints actually miss the Super Bowl
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