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TheOak 11-01-2012 08:05 AM

The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
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The New Orleans Saints aren't just awful on defense. They're historically awful, on track to set league records for futility, incompetence and downright deplorable play, and that's a problem. It would be nice if you could point to a player, scheme or game that's responsible ... but you can't.

And that's a bigger problem.

According to coaches, scouts and personnel directors who studied the Saints' defense, there are no quick fixes out there. Defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo acknowledged as much, saying he can't wave a "magic wand" to make the Saints better. Read between the lines, people: What he's telling you is that this might take more than a season to correct.


And the reason is simple.

"They just don't have the players to run the scheme right now," said former coach Brian Billick, now an analyst with the NFL Network and Fox.

Billick's comments were echoed by four others I polled on the subject, and their responses were unanimous: The root of the Saints' defensive headaches extend far, far beyond a new scheme implemented by a new coordinator -- and you can start with the players that New Orleans fields on defense. They're not fast. They don't produce takeaways. And there's not an elite pass rusher among them.

Add a new coordinator with a plan that requires a lot of movement and players in the right positions, and you not only have a dilemma; you have the league's worst-ranked defense.

"It's 180 degrees from what Gregg Williams was doing," said one GM. "They've gone from being a pressure defense that plays a lot of man-to-man to a pressure defense with a lot of blitz zone.

"I understand this was going to take time for players to get because there was going to be a lot of thinking -- instead of reacting -- that was involved, especially early, where players weren't sure they were in the right positions and where they were thinking more about where they should be. And that's happening. I guess what I'm saying is that you're not really going to know about these guys until Year Two."

Uh-oh.

That means this defense isn't fixable -- at least not this season -- and more than one respondent all but guaranteed it. Their point: Under Williams, the Saints thrived on takeaways, with coach Sean Payton content to have a unit that surrendered yards and points as long as it produced turnovers. And Williams' defenses did.

In fact, when the Saints won Super Bowl XLIV in 2009, they had 39 takeaways -- second only to Green Bay (40) -- with safety Darren Sharper tied for the league lead in interceptions (9). They ranked 25th in overall defense, but it didn't matter. Their takeaways produced short fields -- and points -- for their offense, and Drew Brees took advantage.

You can look it up. Nobody scored more points or more touchdowns that season than New Orleans.

Well, that's not happening anymore. Look at this week's NFL statistics, and you'll find New Orleans with nine takeaways. Only seven clubs have fewer. Worse, look at their safeties. They have one, and, as one scout told me, "that's hard to do." Not here it's not, which is where Brees and the Saints' offense come in.

New Orleans' defensive problems aren't just the product of players who don't fit ... or get ... Spagnuolo's scheme. The Saints' offense has something to do with it, too, and let me explain. When the 2009 Saints won the Super Bowl, there was no more efficient or effective unit out there than Brees and Co. It ranked first in yards, first in scoring, fourth in passing and sixth in rushing. Furthermore, Brees was the league's leading passer -- a guy who produced a raft of touchdowns (34) and few mistakes (11 interceptions).

Now, fast forward to this season, and you find Brees and the Saints' offense out of sync. Where they averaged 31.9 points per game in 2009, they average 27.1 today. Where Brees completed 70.6 percent of his passes in 2009 he completes 59.7 percent today. Where his passer rating was 109.6 then, it's 93.0 now. Where the Saints could run then, they can't now.

I think you get the picture. The loss of Payton has had more than just an impact on Brees and the Saints' blitzkrieg offense; it's had an impact on the entire operation.

"When you're lousy on defense," one coach said. "your offense has to help you."

Well, that's not happening, either. The Saints used to score in bunches, often getting on top of opponents early and forcing them to take chances. Result: The Saints had 64 takeaways in 2009-10. Now, they're often forced to play catch-up, trailing at halftime in five of their first seven games. The impact has been felt by an overwhelmed defense that can't afford to take chances.

"It's easy to blame the new scheme," said one personnel director, "and that's part of it. But a lot of it has to do with their players. There's no speed, there's no pass rush and there are no playmakers. They're just not very athletic on defense. All of their good players are on offense."

The results speak for themselves. The Saints rank 30th against the pass and 31st against the run; opposing quarterbacks have an NFL-best 110.6 passer rating; opposing backs average 5.0 yards per carry; the Saints yield an average ... an average ... of 474.7 yards per game, with all but one opponent scoring 27 or more points on them; and they lost to Kansas City ... Kansas City, for crying out loud ... after blowing a 24-6 second-half lead.

In short, they stink, and there's no immediate fix. Where Spagnuolo had elite pass rushers for his front four with the New York Giants, he doesn't have them in New Orleans. Where he had a running game in New York and St. Louis to complement a passing attack and wear down opponents, he doesn't have one in New Orleans. Where there was hope with his last two defensive units, there is none now.

The New Orleans Saints are broken on defense, and it's going to take time to correct. Moreover, it's going to take players who fit Spagnuolo's design -- not the design of past Saints defenses -- and that's another dilemma: Will the Saints have the patience to ride this one out, or will Payton want to make a change when he returns in 2013?

"Essentially, it's do you want to go for the short-term solution?" said one coach. "Or do you make a commitment to 'Spags' and his philosophy for the long term? Because if you do, you're going to have to get different players."


The problems with Saints defense run deep - CBSSports.com

dizzle88 11-01-2012 08:24 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Darren sharper had 9 interceptions and 3 TD's all on his own

We don't get that kind of production from our whole team in total now

We only get like 8 picks a season from the whole team now

TheOak 11-01-2012 08:27 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 453592)
Darren sharper had 9 interceptions and 3 TD's all on his own

We don't get that kind of production from our whole team in total now

We only get like 8 picks a season from the whole team now

Which brings to light... Was Darren Sharper the reason we made it to the Super Bowl and won in 2009?

Not solely, but with out the production of Darren Sharper on defense I dont think our season would have ended the same.

dizzle88 11-01-2012 08:35 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x626xBlack (Post 453593)
Which brings to light... Was Darren Sharper the reason we made it to the Super Bowl and won in 2009?

Not solely, but with out the production of Darren Sharper on defense I dont think our season would have ended the same.

I definitley think he was a huge part of the success

Just think, DB's were able to jump routes knowing that sharper would be in position if they got beat, because sharper was ALWAYS in great position, he knew how to study offenses and set himself up

If darren didnt make the pick, he put the receiver on the turf, he had so many big hits with us

now compare that to malcolm - who is constantly out of position, cannot tackle to save his life.

DB's cannot jump routes, so more 5 yard slants turning into 9 yard gains, and when its a WR one on one with our DB, they get no safety help and to be fair our DB's are flat out awful

No pressure on the QB, very undersized DB's, pat robinson is like 5"10 as is greer
LB's arent shedding blocks to get to the ball carrier and if they bump outside its automatically a 15 yard gain because our guys dive head first into complete nothingness

TheOak 11-01-2012 08:58 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Its like a good RB... you cant teach that kind of vision... its natural.

FinSaint 11-01-2012 09:26 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
I would think that they need to get different players no matter what the decision for the future will be... they definitely need an upgrade in the defensive skill-player department.

Jamessr 11-01-2012 09:32 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
wow interesting read. The Saints just haven't been anywheres close to a average defensive team. It's ashame too because the offense is so great we could of easly had a few Super Bowls within this Sean payton era.

I hope they truly work on the defense next draft... I think we're good on running backs :)

pinch 11-01-2012 10:02 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
You've got to blow it up and get new players. These players only thrived in a defense lead by the most attacking defensive coordinator in the league, and even then we had better, play-making players.

That defensive coordinator and those players aren't coming back. I'm not sure if Spags is the answer, but either way the majority of our defenders have to go.

TheOak 11-01-2012 10:27 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
To do it right and not have a year like this you almost have to start gathering a few players BEFORE the year the NEW DC shows up.

Kryptonite 11-01-2012 10:50 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
I am not here trying to change your minds on how the defense does not suck, because it does "suck" beyond description.

One thing I do agree with in the above is that the offense isn't what it used to be. I've stated it before and will continue to state it, the defense is giving up "unanswered" points. No, we cannot expect the offense to score 35pts a game, but at some point the offense has to keep the opposing defense on the field long enough to give that terrible defense a breather. Too often the defense makes a couple of great stops and they are back on the field before they get to take their helmets off.

Again, not trying to minimize the level of the D's suckiness, but at the same time since the O knows how bad they are they need to make a conscious effort towards lending them a hand with better play-calling and execution. It disheartening to hear weekly how bad you are when the other side of the ball aint that great either, but you rarely hear about them.

I'm saying though!

Rugby Saint II 11-01-2012 11:39 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x626xBlack (Post 453619)
To do it right and not have a year like this you almost have to start gathering a few players BEFORE the year the NEW DC shows up.

Well, then we better get busy finding new players.:cool:
It's hard to do when your GM is suspended until after the trade dead line. Screw you Roger!:greendevil:

TheOak 11-01-2012 11:44 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II (Post 453625)
Well, then we better get busy finding new players.:cool:
It's hard to do when your GM is suspended until after the trade dead line. Screw you Roger!:greendevil:

My thoughts were more along the lines of bringing in Spags players 2-3, before GW left.

Rugby Saint II 11-01-2012 11:46 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x626xBlack (Post 453626)
My thoughts were more along the lines of bringing in Spags players 2-3, before GW left.

Just yankin' your chain...............:p

FinSaint 11-01-2012 11:48 AM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x626xBlack (Post 453626)
My thoughts were more along the lines of bringing in Spags players 2-3, before GW left.


True, but they didn't even know Spags would be available a year ago.

SaintsBro 11-01-2012 01:36 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptonite (Post 453624)
No, we cannot expect the offense to score 35pts a game, but at some point the offense has to keep the opposing defense on the field long enough to give that terrible defense a breather. Too often the defense makes a couple of great stops and they are back on the field before they get to take their helmets off.

Again, not trying to minimize the level of the D's suckiness, but at the same time since the O knows how bad they are they need to make a conscious effort towards lending them a hand with better play-calling and execution.

Yup. The 3 and out's are killing us. Just brutal.

Coach Kromer said something, a while ago, that made me realize...basically the nature of this Saints offense is that, historically the last few years, it's either:

3 and out, or THEY GET POINTS.

There's practically no middle ground, or in between.

And if you go back and look at box scores and drive charts and play-by-play type stuff, (throw out the sucky game at Denver, because it reeeeally sucked) it actually IS kind of true about this offense. As sort of a general thumbnail rule type thing -- a lot of the time, especially compared to other NFL teams -- this offense tends to either sputter immediately in three or four downs and punt, or else they GO ALL THE WAY like some unstoppable juggernaut of points, the greatest offense of all time. Feast or famine.

And incidentally, that's part of why Morstead is so awesome statistically -- he is frequently punting after a 3 and out, in his own end of the field, so he boooooms it -- he hardly ever has to angle or "coffin corner" it, or aim at a specific point (he is very good at all that stuff, too, by the way).

It's getting that FIRST first down, or sometimes the second first down -- the first four plays, that's the problem. Once they get that, it's typically off to the races, and NOBODY can stop them except themselves.

And I feel like it's been getting worse and worse since 2010. For some reason I remember the SF game in 2010, as being the first time I was freaking out over the 3 and out's.

Papa Voodoo 11-01-2012 01:55 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Jenkins is starting to look a lot like Tebucky Jones out there. I like Harper. Lofton is a monster. Our corners cover, but no picks. I'm sure they would all look like superstars if we could get pressure with the D line OR stuff the run with the D line.

TheOak 11-01-2012 02:08 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FinSaint (Post 453629)
True, but they didn't even know Spags would be available a year ago.

Sounds like pisspoor planning to me LOL.

ARMY bastard/creedo - Practice your 6 P's (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance)

dizzle88 11-01-2012 02:35 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa Voodoo (Post 453643)
Jenkins is starting to look a lot like Tebucky Jones out there. I like Harper. Lofton is a monster. Our corners cover, but no picks. I'm sure they would all look like superstars if we could get pressure with the D line OR stuff the run with the D line.

I like Harper Aswell, people may get on him alot of the time but I know two things

He defends TE's well and improves every season
People forget how many plays he made for us in GW's D, in terms of forced fumbles, 4th down tackles and sacks etc

People can't really say Harper can't cover when none of our D can and Harper breaks a couple of passes up every week

On another note, our corners are pathetic
Corey white can't play man or zone
I was high on j.patrick when he came in but he got schooled aswel
Greer had a couple bad games

Make akiem hicks the starter

nutria 11-01-2012 02:50 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
One thing I do agree with in the above is that the offense isn't what it used to be. I've stated it before and will continue to state it, the defense is giving up "unanswered" points. No, we cannot expect the offense to score 35pts a game, but at some point the offense has to keep the opposing defense on the field long enough to give that terrible defense a breather. Too often the defense makes a couple of great stops and they are back on the field before they get to take their helmets off.

Again, not trying to minimize the level of the D's suckiness, but at the same time since the O knows how bad they are they need to make a conscious effort towards lending them a hand with better play-calling and execution. It disheartening to hear weekly how bad you are when the other side of the ball aint that great either, but you rarely hear about them.

I'm saying though![/QUOTE]

The truth hurts, the offense sucks, but not as bad as the defense which is beyond horrible.

FinSaint 11-01-2012 04:51 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x626xBlack (Post 453645)
Sounds like pisspoor planning to me LOL.

ARMY bastard/creedo - Practice your 6 P's (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance)


Yeah, but I'm not sure if GW's future with the team was settled before that embarrassing playoff loss to the 49ers, so that could've just been the final straw that broke the camels (i.e. SP's) back.

Therefore, the front office might not have been able to anticipate a change of guards at the DC position, which is why they didn't make drastic personnel changes during last season.

darstep 11-01-2012 06:22 PM

Re: The problems with Saints defense run deep
 
Just down right awful, with a capital F!
Now we see why Greg Williams sent seven all the time.
He actually schemed his talent or lack thereof.
Spags is determined to squeeze these square pegs in the rounds.
The offense has now gotten infected because the defense didn't use protection.
Next year will be just as ugly ( and I really hope I'm wrong ).
That 100 million is just poison. Yea I said it! It's poison!
When we patch it up right, it will start leaking left.
When we cover the left side, the bottom will start rusting out.
We don't have pass rusher(s), we will need more than one...
We have no speed or quickness on the defensive side of the ball.
The alternative to having CASH, is giving up a contributor, and that will change the whole dynamic.
Brees now thinks he has to press the issue - definitely not a cure for our ills.
With Sean Payton out, there is no REAL authority figure in the house.
And Brees is telling his bosses what they are going to do, and how things are going to be.
No commitment to the running game is going to keep Brees too far out on that limb,
And our defense on the field way too long, and then back on the field way too soon.
I'm prepared for a long rough road ahead and I'll be right here.
My Saints scar tissue has fewer nerve ending anyway.


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