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Problems with Defensive Tackles

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We ...

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Old 01-03-2013, 04:17 AM   #11
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system.

If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:00 AM   #12
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system.

If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.
A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence.

My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done.

About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.

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Old 01-03-2013, 08:55 AM   #13
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
About or DT, I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.
So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:59 AM   #14
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by |Mitch| View Post
So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...
DE and OLB are major needs, plenty of them in first round
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:04 AM   #15
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence.

My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done.

About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.
Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless.

In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure.

DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful.

If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:06 AM   #16
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by |Mitch| View Post
So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...
I would rather se us picking an OT, DE or S early. I just thing its easier to find an underrated DT that can play early than an RT or a DE that will make an impact in his first year.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:16 AM   #17
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless.

In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure.

DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful.

If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.
As a former LT Personally I love playing against a 3-4 because its so easy to run against... ...but that migh be just my personal experience.

But football and schemes are really simple, the guy who holds the pen last wins. Atleast when you talk and compare a scheme against another, every offense or defence has got flaws and holes you can attack.

When you don't have great players you have to be fundamentally sound to begin with. If you can run, throw, catch, tackle & block really well you will cover a whol lot of physical flaws. Then you have to be creative in the scheme your players are suited for.

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Old 01-03-2013, 09:30 AM   #18
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
As a former LT Personally I love playing against a 3-4 because its so easy to run against... ...but that migh be just my personal experience.

But football and schemes are really simple, the guy who holds the pen last wins. Atleast when you talk and compare a scheme against another, every offense or defence has got flaws and holes you can attack.

When you don't have great players you have to be fundamentally sound to begin with. If you can run, throw, catch, tackle & block really well you will cover a whol lot of physical flaws. Then you have to be creative in the scheme your players are suited for.
I understand the basics of football. You're not telling me anything I don't know, but I appreciate it all the same.

What I'm saying is that having that extra linebacker is very hard to handle, because they have more speed. If we had Joe Johnson, La'Roi Glover, Norman Hand and Darren Howard again, that would be great. But we don't, so I'd like to see a change in philosophy and see how we could do in a 3-4. I'm not sure who you went up against as a LT, but based on what I've seen in the NFL, it doesn't look so easy. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying I'm sick of 15 years of football that have produced maybe two good defenses, all with the same basic scheme. There have been variations, of course, but not much.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:55 AM   #19
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Well it's all based on your talent. If you look at the top 10 defenses stat wise this year you have 5 teams that run 3-4 and 5 teams that run 4-3.
We don't have 3 good LB's how will we come up with 4?
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:01 AM   #20
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Well it's all based on your talent. If you look at the top 10 defenses stat wise this year you have 5 teams that run 3-4 and 5 teams that run 4-3.
We don't have 3 good LB's how will we come up with 4?
Again, it's not about how good the players are. Everyone wants good players, everyone needs good players. But how do you get the most out of whatever you have? We've tried 4-3 for a million years in a row.

And of the top 10 defenses, how many 3-4's were in the top 5? Top 10 isn't dominant. When I say the best, I mean the best.

We have a couple pretty decent linebackers in Lofton and Hawthorne, and I think Martez Wilson would do well as one of those hybrid DE/OLB's that you see in a 3-4. How many good defensive linemen do we have?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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