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Problems with Defensive Tackles

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by Danno Jordan and Hicks look like they may turn out to be better than average though. I'd be willing to add Corey White in that short list as well... Late in the season he started looking rather ...

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Old 01-03-2013, 03:08 PM   #31
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
Jordan and Hicks look like they may turn out to be better than average though.
I'd be willing to add Corey White in that short list as well... Late in the season he started looking rather decent and then he was injured...
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:14 PM   #32
 
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

So the question then becomes why is it that the front office seems to be able to find hungry above average talent on the offensive side of the ball, but not so much on the defensive side? What kind of goggles are they wearing?
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:40 PM   #33
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by SmashMouth View Post
So the question then becomes why is it that the front office seems to be able to find hungry above average talent on the offensive side of the ball, but not so much on the defensive side? What kind of goggles are they wearing?

It might be that we've already seen a change for the better in this regard, but it'll definitely take at least this coming draft to see if the change is permanent or at least not just a fluke.

I don't really know how big of an input GW had in who the Saints picked and what the scouts were told to look out for in targeted players, but I remember reading that Spags brought some scouts with him over to the Saints, so maybe we'll see better defensive picks with him evaluating the potential players along with the slightly altered scouting department?!


In any case, I really think they need to look at Bill Johnson as somebody to replace with another guy. I actually voiced my opinion about this last offseason when Minnesota let go Karl Dunbar - who then went to the Jets - and thought that he should've been hired by the Saints to replace Johnson. I think that he could've been a good fit because players (Jared Allen, Pat and Kevin Williams) that have played under him have stated that Dunbar's strength as a D-line coach was in teaching effective pass rushing techniques, and that is definitely something that the Saints' front 4 could've used this past season.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:02 PM   #34
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
Great post. Agree with virtually all of it.

There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE).

Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though.

Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position.

Lofton (104th MLB),
Vilma (100th OLB),
Ellis (118th DT),
Hawthorne (102nd OLB),
Greer (118th CB),
Robinson (193rd CB),
Harper (167th S),
Jenkins (168th S)

I put that directly on Spags.
I agree with this. I would have never thought Lofton would be ranked 104th. I do know that Harper and Jenkins graded out as the two absolute worst safeties in the league. In no way am I saying this is all their fault and they are the problem, but numbers are hard to argue with, and that is disheartening.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #35
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by TreyThomas View Post
I agree with this. I would have never thought Lofton would be ranked 104th. I do know that Harper and Jenkins graded out as the two absolute worst safeties in the league. In no way am I saying this is all their fault and they are the problem, but numbers are hard to argue with, and that is disheartening.
The fact that basically this same group of players averaged middle of the pack in 3 years under Gregg Williams tells me it's not the players. No one can tell me there are 103 MLB's in this league better than Curtis Lofton. And there aren't 100 OLB's better than Vilma. There are NOT 117 CB's better than Jabari Greer.

Obviously we cold use a few impact players along the front seven, but this roster isn't that damn bad.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:23 PM   #36
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
The fact that basically this same group of players averaged middle of the pack in 3 years under Gregg Williams tells me it's not the players. No one can tell me there are 103 MLB's in this league better than Curtis Lofton. And there aren't 100 OLB's better than Vilma. There are NOT 117 CB's better than Jabari Greer.

Obviously we cold use a few impact players along the front seven, but this roster isn't that damn bad.
Pretty much says it all. Ellis' position, on the other hand, is believable.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:33 AM   #37
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
We certainly hit on more offense than defense in the draft. Our defensive players aren't that bad, but none are elite, or even great.

We have a roster full of average and a few below average, but no difference makers. Jordan and Hicks look like they may turn out to be better than average though.

Well eventually every team sees someone decent on the D-line, for us it was Will Smith, but with Will Smith possibly declining, if anyone takes over for him, its Cam Jordan. Basically back at square one on that.

But some of the most noted players we have had on defense was FA picks, back to 06 I think of:

Greer
Fujita (now with Browns)
Lofton
Vilma
Sharper (retired)
Randall Gay (where is he now? He never started after 09 I think)

The only ones worth wild we drafted since Sean Payton era started:

Tracy Porter (now with Broncos)

Is there really anyone else worth mentioning since 2006? I know some will say Roman Harper or Malcolm Jenkins, but they are proving to be more bust than success in the long run.

Perhaps if Cam Jordan turns that corner into the same production as Will Smith, then he can be added to the list.


As you see Spags system come into play, you then understand Gregg Williams system a little more, as you understand Gregg Williams system and what he did, you then realize our defensive players is just not worth wild to begin with, least not 80% of them, since they cant pick up a new scheme that drastically improves the defense.

Its not on Spags, its on our players, Spags set out the plan, they never executed it.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:42 AM   #38
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Actually only two 3-4 defenses were in the top 5. Pittsburg and 49ers.
Denver, Seattle and Bears run 4-3.
Denver has superstars on their defense. And very few teams ever run the 3-4. Why is it that those who do, are so highly ranked? I've well said that you can be successful with great players under any system, but I'm more impressed with coordinators who can make any group of players at least decent. With four linebackers, you can cover more people over the middle, and you can move them up when necessary. There isn't much size difference between an outside linebacker and a defensive end.

You seem to believe that defensive rankings from one season mean that my point means nothing, when the fact is that almost no one runs anything but a 4-3 anymore. And it is my opinion that this should change, unless we come up with some great players real soon.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #39
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Denver has superstars on their defense. And very few teams ever run the 3-4. Why is it that those who do, are so highly ranked? I've well said that you can be successful with great players under any system, but I'm more impressed with coordinators who can make any group of players at least decent. With four linebackers, you can cover more people over the middle, and you can move them up when necessary. There isn't much size difference between an outside linebacker and a defensive end.

You seem to believe that defensive rankings from one season mean that my point means nothing, when the fact is that almost no one runs anything but a 4-3 anymore. And it is my opinion that this should change, unless we come up with some great players real soon.
Green Bay isn't highly ranked, the cowgirls aren't highly ranked and they run 3-4 scheme. Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but if our current defensive players can't learn Spag's zone scheme, they damn sure can't learn 3-4 schemes which employ some of the same zone schemes. First off, who are the 4 LB's?
Vilma couldn't play the 3-4 for the Jets that's how we got him. Lofton is a MLB also. Your LB's have to be able to rush the passer and also play coverage. The idea of the 3-4 is that you can change up the LB that blitzs so they have to be fast and strong. I don't think we have any LB's that fit that description. We also don't have a NT to take a double team. What would be our line up? I just don't think we have the personnel to switch to a 3-4.

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Old 01-04-2013, 03:06 PM   #40
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Green Bay isn't highly ranked, the cowgirls aren't highly ranked and they run 3-4 scheme. Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but if our current defensive players can't learn Spag's zone scheme, they damn sure can't learn 3-4 schemes which employ some of the same zone schemes. First off, who are the 4 LB's?
Vilma couldn't play the 3-4 for the Jets that's how we got him. Lofton is a MLB also. Your LB's have to be able to rush the passer and also play coverage. The idea of the 3-4 is that you can change up the LB that blitzs so they have to be fast and strong. I don't think we have any LB's that fit that description. We also don't have a NT to take a double team. What would be our line up? I just don't think we have the personnel to switch to a 3-4.

I'm not a supporter of the 3-4, but Bunkley was highly successful as a NT in a 3-4 in Denver and I think that Wilson, Chamberlain and Casillas could all play the 3-4 OLB position along with - potentially - Hawthorne and Herring. I'm not saying they'd be Marcus Wares, but they could manage to play the position.

Just being a devil's advocate.
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