Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012

01-09-2013, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Saint_LB

More money for the QB means less money for the OL. Less money for the OL means less protection for the QB. Less protection for the QB means more INT's for the other team.

It's all very simple...really.

No, your POV is simplistic.

The offensive line will not be effected by Drew's high salary this year or next just as it wasn't affected by his low salary for the last 5 years.

By your line of logic we should have had the #1 O-Line in the NFL the last few seasons. ALSO the most sacked QB this season.

Payton Manning Seems pretty damn well protected. $96 million contract sacked 21 times.

Aaron Rodgers $65 million contract - most sacked QB in the NFL in 2012, sacked 51 times.

Andy Dalton $5.4 million dollar contract, third most sacked QB in the NFL with 46

Drew Brees $100 million 26 sacks.

It just doesnt work that way...

xan · 01-09-2013, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Erm... No

Disagreeing with the facts? or the conclusion. IF the conclusion is wrong, what facts mitigate the suckitude directly attributable to poor individual performance?

Or are you saying that there is no relation to value to performance, which extends to the conclusion that every Saint be paid $100 million?

2012 was a guaranteed $40 million year for Brees, which, incidentally, was the highest payout in history.

Mr. Brees' Performance, by game (passing defense rating):

Week 1 - 24th (Skins - 30th)
Week 2 - 22nd (Panties - 13th)
Week 3 - 27th (Freaking Chiefs - 12th)
Week 4 - 8th (GB - 11th)
Week 5 - 4th (Bolts - his only comeback win - 18th)
Week 6 - Bye
Week 7 - 2nd (Bucs - 32nd)
Week 8 - 23rd (Broncos - 4th)
Week 9 - 5th (Beagles - 9th)
Week 10- 10th (Clowns - 23rd)
Week 11- 2nd (Raiders - 20th)
Week 12- 21st (Whiners - 3rd)
Week 13- 27th (Clowns - 23rd)
Week 14- 15th (Gmen - 28th)
Week 15- 7th (Bucs - 32nd)
Week 16- 6th (Cowgirls - 19th)
Week 17- 9th (Panties - 13th)

Look, I get we sported the worst defense in the HISTORY OF THE NFL in terms of yardage allowed. But it wasn't the worst in scoring allowed by a long shot. The offense just wasn't very good, and the mistakes made were baffling. We had more 3-outs in the first 7 games of 2012 than we did all 2011 season. We had healthy running backs and a healthy OL, and veterans with at least 3 years starting experience at every position, all but one starter having played with the Saints those 3 seasons.

This wasn't a talent breakdown, this was a leadership/decision-making breakdown. It's not all on Brees, but bad decisions by quarterbacks have a more insidious effect on a team than do mistakes by other position players.

Saint_LB · 01-09-2013, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by xan

This wasn't a talent breakdown, this was a leadership/decision-making breakdown. It's not all on Brees, but bad decisions by quarterbacks have a more insidious effect on a team than do mistakes by other position players.

It baffles me that people think that something all the sudden happened and Drew became different and made worse decisions...just because it happened and there was no reason. When you see a pick in the game stats, you don't see the D-Lineman grabbing hold to his jersey...or in his face making him not being able to step completely into his throw.

I contend that the protection breakdown...or the poor O-line play in general...lead to not only the decrease in Drew's protection but the RB's production as well.

I know that we lost at least one all-pro lineman...FOR WHATEVER REASON..and it seemed obvious to me that Drew was no different than he ever was but the way the offense went about it's business definitely was.

TheOak · 01-09-2013, 08:03 AM

My "erm no" was a catch all for your "no matter what".... your "full authority to change and call all plays at the line".

If you want to look at his performance in a vacuum then by all means go ahead. However this season there are intangibles that can not be accounted for.

The line that I am seeing that Drew Had his worst season BECAUSE of salary is absolute BS.

Drew did a lot of things this season that didn't turn out like he would have wanted them to, were they out of the ordinary for Drew. Hell yes.

You accounted for 19 interceptions 15 all on him and 4 pick 6s. What games did you watch? At least 5 of those INT's hit receivers in the hands.

As far as for what coverage he throws into... No one fkn minded in 2009.

The 2012 New Orleans Saints season is 100% uncharted waters. Have teams dealt with league drama before? Yes Video Gate. Have teams lost a coach for a season? yes the Colts this year. Have teams changed defenses before? Yes.. many times. Has any team attempted all three in a season before? Hell no.

I also leave you with this. Even if Drew had full autonomy of the play calling, that does not excuse Vitt or Carmicheal from not stopping what was going on each game when things were going bad. We all have some level of ownership in our jobs, and we all have managers that make sure we don't destroy the company in the process. The horrible play calling is all on Vitt and Carmicheal.

UNLESS, you are willing to concede that Drew has always had full autonomy of the offense and Sean Payton is not the Architect during the game? That would mean that with out the undue pressure of this season Drew Can get us to the Super Bowl next year with out Sean Payton. Its a slippery slope.

Jamessr · 01-09-2013, 08:59 AM

I think the entire organization shoulders the blame, not 1 person, not 1 coach, and not 1 side of the ball.
The entire organization.

Oak is right it was uncharted waters, I don't mind debates but I don't want to be at each other throat because I don't think this is what was going on in the locker room.

Drew had some bad games and the defense done well and we lost...
The defense had even more horrible games where Drew was outstanding and we still lost.

Its a team effort and tbh 10-14 games worth we just weren't in sync as a team.
I hate to say it but I can't wait till next year, we have alot to look forward too.

TheOak · 01-09-2013, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Jamessr

I think the entire organization shoulders the blame, not 1 person, not 1 coach, and not 1 side of the ball.
The entire organization.

Oak is right it was uncharted waters, I don't mind debates but I don't want to be at each other throat because I don't think this is what was going on in the locker room.

Drew had some bad games and the defense done well and we lost...
The defense had even more horrible games where Drew was outstanding and we still lost.

Its a team effort and tbh 10-14 games worth we just weren't in sync as a team.
I hate to say it but I can't wait till next year, we have alot to look forward too.

My point is that Drew is not bearing blame, he is bearing hate because of his pay. If it were not for his salary people wouldn't be blaming him so much.

RaginCajun83 · 01-09-2013, 10:18 AM

Biggie was right "mo money, mo problems"

skymike · 01-09-2013, 10:58 AM

Oak, you keep throwing around the word hate.

When I criticize Brees, I am hating no one.
I criticize my family members, when criticism is due.
I've criticized my mother.

I love Drew, still think he's a good guy, and he's my quarterback, and I'm
rooting for him. Spending a pretty penny to attend his games in person.
Nothing I want more, than for him to be successful and happy.

But he's human. Humans make mistakes, and I think it was a mistake to
hold out for an astronomical salary, at the expense of team practice in the summer; at the expense of the salary cap, which, yes, does affect the quality of the team; and also at the expense of his own legacy and reputation. I know he's a good guy. You know he's a good guy. He'll give most of it away to charity. But the rest of the world who doesnt root for the Saints thinks he's a greedy bastard.

Personal love aside, from a sports/business standpoint, when you pull a huge piece of money which should draw other talent, when you raise the cost of operations, which trickles down to me, Joe Fan, (If it doesnt, then tell me why everything has a corporate sponsor name. )

When you pull this kind of financial burden, you better score every time you touch the ball.

Its not hate. Its business. Ask the players, if playing is just for fun.

Shoe. · 01-09-2013, 11:33 AM

Drew held out for a silly amount of money, and now he will reap the consequences. Oak makes a good point, but the counter to that is that Drew asked for the money, and thereby deserves some criticism for not playing up to those standards.

At the end of the day, the highest paid player EVER cannot lead the league in interceptions, end of story

TheOak · 01-09-2013, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by skymike

Oak, you keep throwing around the word hate.

When I criticize Brees, I am hating no one.
I criticize my family members, when criticism is due.
I've criticized my mother.

I love Drew, still think he's a good guy, and he's my quarterback, and I'm
rooting for him. Spending a pretty penny to attend his games in person.
Nothing I want more, than for him to be successful and happy.

But he's human. Humans make mistakes, and I think it was a mistake to
hold out for an astronomical salary, at the expense of team practice in the summer; at the expense of the salary cap, which, yes, does affect the quality of the team; and also at the expense of his own legacy and reputation. I know he's a good guy. You know he's a good guy. He'll give most of it away to charity. But the rest of the world who doesnt root for the Saints thinks he's a greedy bastard.

Personal love aside, from a sports/business standpoint, when you pull a huge piece of money which should draw other talent, when you raise the cost of operations, which trickles down to me, Joe Fan, (If it doesnt, then tell me why everything has a corporate sponsor name. )

When you pull this kind of financial burden, you better score every time you touch the ball.

Its not hate. Its business. Ask the players, if playing is just for fun.

I completely understand business Mike. I also understand market value and no item draws more money than the market will bare. True value is moot when you hit the market.

As far as sitting out, there was zero off season workouts for the 2011 season. How did the team do?

As far as for the other teams fans that think he was greedy... They also have a different opinion of Bounty gate.

Ill start a new thread to discuss his contract. Its OT for this.

01-09-2013, 07:13 AM	#21
Threaded by TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by Saint_LB More money for the QB means less money for the OL. Less money for the OL means less protection for the QB. Less protection for the QB means more INT's for the other team. It's all very simple...really. No, your POV is simplistic. The offensive line will not be effected by Drew's high salary this year or next just as it wasn't affected by his low salary for the last 5 years. By your line of logic we should have had the #1 O-Line in the NFL the last few seasons. ALSO the most sacked QB this season. Payton Manning Seems pretty damn well protected. $96 million contract sacked 21 times. Aaron Rodgers $65 million contract - most sacked QB in the NFL in 2012, sacked 51 times. Andy Dalton $5.4 million dollar contract, third most sacked QB in the NFL with 46 Drew Brees $100 million 26 sacks. It just doesnt work that way... pherein and SaintsBro like this.
Views: 6833

01-09-2013, 07:37 AM	#22
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,355 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Originally Posted by TheOak Erm... No Disagreeing with the facts? or the conclusion. IF the conclusion is wrong, what facts mitigate the suckitude directly attributable to poor individual performance? Or are you saying that there is no relation to value to performance, which extends to the conclusion that every Saint be paid $100 million? 2012 was a guaranteed $40 million year for Brees, which, incidentally, was the highest payout in history. Mr. Brees' Performance, by game (passing defense rating): Week 1 - 24th (Skins - 30th) Week 2 - 22nd (Panties - 13th) Week 3 - 27th (Freaking Chiefs - 12th) Week 4 - 8th (GB - 11th) Week 5 - 4th (Bolts - his only comeback win - 18th) Week 6 - Bye Week 7 - 2nd (Bucs - 32nd) Week 8 - 23rd (Broncos - 4th) Week 9 - 5th (Beagles - 9th) Week 10- 10th (Clowns - 23rd) Week 11- 2nd (Raiders - 20th) Week 12- 21st (Whiners - 3rd) Week 13- 27th (Clowns - 23rd) Week 14- 15th (Gmen - 28th) Week 15- 7th (Bucs - 32nd) Week 16- 6th (Cowgirls - 19th) Week 17- 9th (Panties - 13th) Look, I get we sported the worst defense in the HISTORY OF THE NFL in terms of yardage allowed. But it wasn't the worst in scoring allowed by a long shot. The offense just wasn't very good, and the mistakes made were baffling. We had more 3-outs in the first 7 games of 2012 than we did all 2011 season. We had healthy running backs and a healthy OL, and veterans with at least 3 years starting experience at every position, all but one starter having played with the Saints those 3 seasons. This wasn't a talent breakdown, this was a leadership/decision-making breakdown. It's not all on Brees, but bad decisions by quarterbacks have a more insidious effect on a team than do mistakes by other position players.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

01-09-2013, 07:50 AM	#23
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Originally Posted by xan This wasn't a talent breakdown, this was a leadership/decision-making breakdown. It's not all on Brees, but bad decisions by quarterbacks have a more insidious effect on a team than do mistakes by other position players. It baffles me that people think that something all the sudden happened and Drew became different and made worse decisions...just because it happened and there was no reason. When you see a pick in the game stats, you don't see the D-Lineman grabbing hold to his jersey...or in his face making him not being able to step completely into his throw. I contend that the protection breakdown...or the poor O-line play in general...lead to not only the decrease in Drew's protection but the RB's production as well. I know that we lost at least one all-pro lineman...FOR WHATEVER REASON..and it seemed obvious to me that Drew was no different than he ever was but the way the offense went about it's business definitely was.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right! Last edited by Saint_LB; 01-09-2013 at 07:57 AM..

01-09-2013, 08:03 AM	#24
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 My "erm no" was a catch all for your "no matter what".... your "full authority to change and call all plays at the line". If you want to look at his performance in a vacuum then by all means go ahead. However this season there are intangibles that can not be accounted for. The line that I am seeing that Drew Had his worst season BECAUSE of salary is absolute BS. Drew did a lot of things this season that didn't turn out like he would have wanted them to, were they out of the ordinary for Drew. Hell yes. You accounted for 19 interceptions 15 all on him and 4 pick 6s. What games did you watch? At least 5 of those INT's hit receivers in the hands. As far as for what coverage he throws into... No one fkn minded in 2009. The 2012 New Orleans Saints season is 100% uncharted waters. Have teams dealt with league drama before? Yes Video Gate. Have teams lost a coach for a season? yes the Colts this year. Have teams changed defenses before? Yes.. many times. Has any team attempted all three in a season before? Hell no. I also leave you with this. Even if Drew had full autonomy of the play calling, that does not excuse Vitt or Carmicheal from not stopping what was going on each game when things were going bad. We all have some level of ownership in our jobs, and we all have managers that make sure we don't destroy the company in the process. The horrible play calling is all on Vitt and Carmicheal. UNLESS, you are willing to concede that Drew has always had full autonomy of the offense and Sean Payton is not the Architect during the game? That would mean that with out the undue pressure of this season Drew Can get us to the Super Bowl next year with out Sean Payton. Its a slippery slope.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-09-2013, 08:59 AM	#25
Jamessr 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 1,583	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 I think the entire organization shoulders the blame, not 1 person, not 1 coach, and not 1 side of the ball. The entire organization. Oak is right it was uncharted waters, I don't mind debates but I don't want to be at each other throat because I don't think this is what was going on in the locker room. Drew had some bad games and the defense done well and we lost... The defense had even more horrible games where Drew was outstanding and we still lost. Its a team effort and tbh 10-14 games worth we just weren't in sync as a team. I hate to say it but I can't wait till next year, we have alot to look forward too.
	Originally Posted by nutria: "What can we get on defense in a trade for Drew Brees?"

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01-09-2013, 09:03 AM	#26
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Originally Posted by Jamessr I think the entire organization shoulders the blame, not 1 person, not 1 coach, and not 1 side of the ball. The entire organization. Oak is right it was uncharted waters, I don't mind debates but I don't want to be at each other throat because I don't think this is what was going on in the locker room. Drew had some bad games and the defense done well and we lost... The defense had even more horrible games where Drew was outstanding and we still lost. Its a team effort and tbh 10-14 games worth we just weren't in sync as a team. I hate to say it but I can't wait till next year, we have alot to look forward too. My point is that Drew is not bearing blame, he is bearing hate because of his pay. If it were not for his salary people wouldn't be blaming him so much. SaintsBro likes this.

01-09-2013, 10:18 AM	#27
RaginCajun83 Hou Saints Fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 5,050	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Biggie was right "mo money, mo problems" skymike likes this.

01-09-2013, 10:58 AM	#28
skymike E. Side Cholo Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Barrio, H-town Posts: 6,089	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Oak, you keep throwing around the word hate. When I criticize Brees, I am hating no one. I criticize my family members, when criticism is due. I've criticized my mother. I love Drew, still think he's a good guy, and he's my quarterback, and I'm rooting for him. Spending a pretty penny to attend his games in person. Nothing I want more, than for him to be successful and happy. But he's human. Humans make mistakes, and I think it was a mistake to hold out for an astronomical salary, at the expense of team practice in the summer; at the expense of the salary cap, which, yes, does affect the quality of the team; and also at the expense of his own legacy and reputation. I know he's a good guy. You know he's a good guy. He'll give most of it away to charity. But the rest of the world who doesnt root for the Saints thinks he's a greedy bastard. Personal love aside, from a sports/business standpoint, when you pull a huge piece of money which should draw other talent, when you raise the cost of operations, which trickles down to me, Joe Fan, (If it doesnt, then tell me why everything has a corporate sponsor name. ) When you pull this kind of financial burden, you better score every time you touch the ball. Its not hate. Its business. Ask the players, if playing is just for fun.

01-09-2013, 11:33 AM	#29
Shoe. 500th Post Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hub City Posts: 576	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Drew held out for a silly amount of money, and now he will reap the consequences. Oak makes a good point, but the counter to that is that Drew asked for the money, and thereby deserves some criticism for not playing up to those standards. At the end of the day, the highest paid player EVER cannot lead the league in interceptions, end of story Jamessr and Utah_Saint like this.

01-09-2013, 11:54 AM	#30
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Brees holds himself accountable for up-and-down 2012 Originally Posted by skymike Oak, you keep throwing around the word hate. When I criticize Brees, I am hating no one. I criticize my family members, when criticism is due. I've criticized my mother. I love Drew, still think he's a good guy, and he's my quarterback, and I'm rooting for him. Spending a pretty penny to attend his games in person. Nothing I want more, than for him to be successful and happy. But he's human. Humans make mistakes, and I think it was a mistake to hold out for an astronomical salary, at the expense of team practice in the summer; at the expense of the salary cap, which, yes, does affect the quality of the team; and also at the expense of his own legacy and reputation. I know he's a good guy. You know he's a good guy. He'll give most of it away to charity. But the rest of the world who doesnt root for the Saints thinks he's a greedy bastard. Personal love aside, from a sports/business standpoint, when you pull a huge piece of money which should draw other talent, when you raise the cost of operations, which trickles down to me, Joe Fan, (If it doesnt, then tell me why everything has a corporate sponsor name. ) When you pull this kind of financial burden, you better score every time you touch the ball. Its not hate. Its business. Ask the players, if playing is just for fun. I completely understand business Mike. I also understand market value and no item draws more money than the market will bare. True value is moot when you hit the market. As far as sitting out, there was zero off season workouts for the 2011 season. How did the team do? As far as for the other teams fans that think he was greedy... They also have a different opinion of Bounty gate. Ill start a new thread to discuss his contract. Its OT for this.

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