Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

The New Orleans Saints likely will release one or more veteran defensive players before the start of the NFL's free-agent signing period March 12. And they must add at least two or three impact players in free agency and the draft.


New Orleans Saints defensive end Cameron Jordan celebrates a 6-yard sack on the Atlanta Falcons' Matt Ryan at the Georgia Dome on November 29, 2012. (Photo by Michael DeMocker, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune)
But before that makeover begins, here is my assessment of the players on the current roster. Players are listed in order of their talent level heading into the 2013 season:


Breaking down the New Orleans Saints' defensive talent | NOLA.com

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Did he mean to say, "Broken down New Orleans Saints' defensive talent?"

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Pretty solid piece of work. My only disagreement would be, I think he is wrong about Quddus. He seemed to show more promise as an actual safety than Harper ever did. IMO

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Very good assesment of our players!

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Harper went to the pro bowl twice and under Gregg Williams was an upper tier safety.

IAQ is promising, but he hasn't shown squat compared to what Roman Harper has shown.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

dislike his ratings... he still has the old school mentality that many on this forum carry. Some of the Vets we have need to be released not only for the cap but simply because we are RE-BUILDING. Harper and Smith cuts alone save 16 mil for the cap. If we keep starting the old vets like Smith and Harper we will be looking for the replacements next year or the year after, we will constantly be re-building. We need younger, raw and coach-able new talent.

He says "Smith is no-longer an explosive pass rusher"... when was he? 13.5 sacks being the highest sack season on his books is shameful for a DE getting paid what he has been. Saying he would be worth it for 6m a year is BS. Cut him, Hicks is the best fit for the open DE spot.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

I don't think Q can play in the box like Harper either. Dude needs like three necks to measure up to harp.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Harper went due to his blitzing ability... he has never been a cover safety of any kind, you know this. i would be singing Harper's praises if he were 30lbs heavier and playing LB, but in reality he is nothing more than a liability in coverage.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

I would love to keep Harper but the guys a dispointment when he has to cover anyone. When the balls in the air I praying that it under throw because I know he's beat if it not. Now the guys a solid run stopper that would be great if he didn't play saftey. My point is we need to find someone better. Bring in Woodson or Reed it can't get any worst I don't care how old they are there better than what we have.

I wish ... I really hope that Harper and MJ fell by the wayside because of Spags. I really like Harper a lot. Those two last season were a combined cluster f$&@ though. I can't say the same for MJ tho, a lot of folks were big on him his first season but he got torched as a CB.

Now, this all being said, CBs usually need about 3 years in the NFL until they are really ready for the job. If that's the case we got some talent ready to explode on the scene next season.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

" WHAT THE SAINTS SHOULD DO IN FREE AGENCY"
1. Trade Roman Harper to Titans "i know Greg Williams would want him". Maybe we get a 3rd rd pick settle up to any cause your adding by subtracting here to begin with cause what his cap number is."save 5 mil on books and 3 or 4 in cap space.
2.SEE FIRST IF YOU CAN GET THE VALUE FOR MARK INGRAM
and if you can get a 1st rd or a 2 and a 3 for him if so cause of a weak skilled position draft trade him. NEED PICKS MORE WE HAVE A GLUT OF BACKS
3 NOW EXTEND CHRIS IVORY i believe he's more impactfull than Ingram and probably cheaper.,
4.Sign some Good Hard Nose Defenders
"NOT OVERRATED HIGH DOLLAR FA" Abroyo Franklin or David Hawthorne i hope he can shake back.
5 DRAFT SUREFIRE STARTERS
doesn't matter really as long as u address pass rush, nose tackle, safety and corner.
NOW USE THE EXTRA PICKS ON BEST VALUE AVAILABLE TE, or TACKLE and WR

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

i think he pegged stone hands harper to a tee

excellent ss with below average coverage skills

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Out of the main cut-candidate trio, I would most like to see Harper continue with the team, but all probably still have something to offer to the team - not just enough to justify their salaries at the moment.

I think Chamberlain is one player that most are undervaluing - and for a reason since he didn't see any actual playing time last season because of his injury in the preseason - but I think he can be a real asset for the Saints since he has the skill-set to play virtually any of the LB positions other than the rushing OLB. Placing him next to someone like Lofton in the middle would be intriguing since he used to be a safety in college. And I've actually wondered if he could replace Harper as the SS - he has almost 40 lbs on Harper, but he definitely has better coverage skills and their on-the-field speeds are probably about the same at this point in their careers. Will Herring is another guy who might prove to be worth more than most (including myself) fans are giving him credit for. He had those injury problems the first year he was with the Saints, and it's really difficult to evaluate his play based on the limited playing time he saw with Spags.

My point is that since the Saints will undoubtedly be using a hybrid base scheme of both 3-4 and 4-3 - versatile (and fairly affordable) players like Chamberlain and Herring might prove to be real assets going forward.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

This again? Two pro bowls because of sacks. Not because of how well he actually performed at his position. It was a joke that he was ever named a pro bowler. To each his own opinion (even if I completely disagree), but I won't be sad when they cut him. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but man, it's time to shed some weight.

I quite hopeful that with a couple of additions the defence could become a middle of the pack(18/25) next year.


Front 3
Bunkley
Hicks
Jordan
Johnson

I'd like either a veteran or rookie NT brought in to compete with Bunkley.I would be opposed to trading him for player/picks either.Somebody like Knighton/Franklin in FA as backup/rotation,or a rookie.Or both and trade Bunkley,though I think the change to 3-4 suits him.

FA DT
Samie Lee Hill
Alan Branch
Ricky Jean-Francois

Need back up for Hicks/Jordan.Smith might be a decent option if he vastly reduces his numbers $14ml is way to high and unless its a third of that number its too high IMO.

LB
Lofton
Chamberlain
Hawthorne
Wilson
Galette
Herring
Vilma

Not much above average in that group for me(apart from Lofton).No trade value either but all should hopefully be better fits in the new 3-4.Big seasons for Galette and Wilsom. Like Smith Vilma's cap number need reduced significantly for him to stay.Wouldn't want to loose him as a leader but the money can be better spent on a healthy/younger player who is a better fit for a 3-4.

I'd like Casillas re-signed for depth.
OLB needed in the draft or FA if cap can be reduced.Im not sure about Ansah in the draft as a OLB,seems a better fit as a DE to me.I don't think we have the time to develop him either.Galette can play as a pure pass rusher and bringing Ansah in as a situational rusher doesn't make sense with so much se needed.Not sure if Jordan or Mingo will make it to 15. I still like Ogletree in the draft buf the off field issues are worrying. The Giants are reportedly looking for a ILB and trading back would be good if Jordan and Mi go are gone.
Can't say I keen on Anthony Spencer in FA.He never really did much prior to last season and I don't like paying big money on one season production.
Kruger would be great but I don't see how the money could be made available.

FA Options

OLB
Philip Wheeler
Conor Barwin
Daryl Smith
Nick Barnett

ILB
Darnell Elerbe
Larry Grant


Secondary
CB
White
Mack
Greer
Robinson

S
Harper
Malcolm
Bush
IA-Q

Really don't know what to think of these lot.Last year was appalling though partly die to the lack of a pass rush.
Harpers cap numbers must drop like Vilma and Smiths.If he does stay hopefully he can get back to rushing the passer again as he is terrible in coverage.Wouldn't be unhappy trading him for a 4th rounder.
Luckily there is some good depth in the backfield for this years draft.

I'd love us to get a pair of big nasty corners.

FA vets
Grimes
DRC
Jammer

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

+1. The guy sucks at his position. Time to cut bait, and move on.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Broke Down, Broken Down

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

As an in the box SS, he does not suck at his position... in fact, he's above average at it. Now if you make him into a coverage safety and take away his position of strength, well then you have an average player.

It's like making a zone corner play bump and run. Asking a run stuffing NT to rush the passer. A scat back to run inbetween tackles. A pocket quarterback to start running. I'm sure you can get the picture.

While Harper may not fit the scheme anymore, he does not suck. There's a difference.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Yes he does.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

We lack star power on our defense.We need the equivalent of a Rickey Jackson type player. Hopefully we get one in this years draft

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Wait, let me expound on why Harper 'sucks'.

You can't seriously sit here and say he is above average, can you? Mainly plays on blitzes and big hits within 7 yards of the LOS, which kind of makes his range a joke. There are 3-5 plays every week in which he's a total liability to the D and gets exposed. How many 7 million dollar players fit that bill? His best season came next to Sharper for a reason. We are paying him pro-bowl money to be a run stopper and blitzer, which he is better then average at, but not great. We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. He's like the JERRY JONES of the Saints ...Horrible play = "I think I played pretty well today".

Are you ok with that?

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

:popcorn:

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back.

The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

It was two years ago and I think Papz posted it. He was rated 3rd best DB in the NFL at covering TE's. Not 3rd best safety, but 3rd best DB.

He and Jenkins graded out very badly this past year, along with every member of our defense. Lofton, Vilma, Hawthorne, Robinson, and Greer ALL finished near dead last at their respective positions.

The only respectable grades were Bunkley (our best grade), Jordan and Galette. Everyone else was horrible.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Perfectly said.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

IMHO it is very hard to argue that Harper is not horrible in coverage. His play doesn't merit his pay.Yes he does agreat job blitzing and is good in run support.I believe that at his number there are better options at his current price.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Yes, but is he really that bad or is it just a subjective thing caused by everybody saying that based on a few plays like the Seattle playoff game?

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

You clearly missed the boat regarding my comment. It was laid out pretty simple already.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion. Whether or not I'm okay with it is irrelevant.

I think it was within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage or something like that... and the stat came from Profooball Focus. Which then lead us to this.

-He's a pretty good blitzer.
-He plays the run well.
-He's was solid in coverage in the box.

Well what do you know... in a scheme where he's being put in position to be what he is, he doesn't suck. Now if he's being put in position to cover downfield, he's average to below average.

Now this just sounds like a broken record.

Now let me get this clear, if we move on from Harper, I'd have no issues about it. Harper didn't fit Spag's scheme... he might not fit Ryan's either. But to say he flat out sucks, that just shows clear bias.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Easy there fellow, no bias here. I just need to start watching him play through your glasses from here on out.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

No glasses needed... just apply some common sense.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

poor guy just can not catch the ball. last thing you want to see is Harper in deep coverage. other than that he is one of the best SS in the NFL.

To bad he was not playing 20 years ago he might be a hall fame type of SS. Today SS are nothing more than FS that can tackle.

I just think he is stuck in the wrong era

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

NM...

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Good point. He probably would have feasted back in the day. With all spread offenses and how the league has changed into a passing league, he would need to be in a specific type of defense.

The old Cowboys SS, Roy Williams, compares to Harper a little bit. Both were pretty good in the box, but neither is someone you'd like to see covering downfield. Definitely not a pretty sight.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Troy Polamalu is probably the best example of that dying breed. When asked to play deep centerfield or 2-high, he frigging sucks!

But in the box (within 10 -15 yards of the LOS) he may be the best SS to ever play the game and a 1st ballot HOF'er.

Thats why I get disappointed with the Harper hate.

I don't think our posters understand the difference between a traditional Strong Safety and a damn CB.

Harper is a good SS, but a lousy CB and deep safety.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

I agree completely. The traditional SS is a dying breed. With the way the game has evolved, guys like Harper are getting weeded out. It's probably better these days to have two FS's back there in the secondary... as SS will pretty much be by name only.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

The good news is that as far as I've understood Ryan's preferences within his scheme; he tends to place the SS in a more traditional role and closer to the LOS than, for example, Spags did.

Maybe Harper will be an impact player with Ryan as the DC like he was back when GW was the DC - GW's bromance for him was probably the biggest reason why he was given such a big contract after the lockout ended.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

I've heard the opposite a few times too. Either way, I think the 7 million for a team that doesn't feature an in the box safety is way too much.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Well, very few players really are worth $7M a year even if they get paid that and more.

Harper at around $3-3.5M would probably work for the Saints if there's a place for him in Ryan's defense, but I don't know if he would be willing take such a pay cut.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Pay attention to the second paragraph and keep in mind this was in GW schemed defense which apparently some of the posters claim he was the 3rd best cover safety. We all saw the results this year and can agree he sucked in 2012, but read bellow to examine just how 'good' he was in GWs defense.

"Roman Harper will be highly ranked as an IDP going into the 2012 season, and upon first glance that may seem legitimate considering he led his team in both tackles and sacks in 2011. However, you may want to think twice before drafting him early. Remember, Spagnuolo isn’t going to use him like Williams did. Before 2009 when Gregg Williams joined New Orleans and started using Harper like a linebacker, his stats were less impressive. In the two years Harper started pre-Greg Williams, he averaged 89.5 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1.5 interceptions per season. In his three years starting under Williams, he averaged 98.3 tackles, 3.67 sacks (7.5 last year) and 0.33 interceptions per season. Moreover, Harper went without a single interception in three of his five years as a starting safety (last year included) and has recorded only one interception over the past four seasons.

Pass coverage is by no means Harper’s strong point, as rushing the QB clearly is. In fact, Harper achieved the lowest pass coverage rating among all Saint’s defensive backs (-8.4) , according to PFF’s defensive ratings, and was just 0.3 points away from being worse than all their linebackers too. Additionally, he received the 3rd worst pass coverage rating among all starting safeties in the league, complementing his overall rating that was also good for 3rd worst among all starters (-14.9). For comparison’s sake, Harper had an inferior pass coverage rating to three of the four patriots starting defensive backs, beating James Ihedigbo by just 0.2. Considering how terrible the Patriot’s pass defense was all season, that’s an accomplishment."


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-isnt-sharper/

Pretty tough evaluation of his cover abilities. Not only was he the worst coverage DB for the saints, he was worse than all but one of our LBs... lol

Ranked by PFF to be the 75th best safety... not worth a dime in my book.

Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent
 

Sure, those are convincing stats presented in a way that makes him seem as valuable as dirt, but the evaluation is for fantasy football and therefore it places too much of an emphasis on certain parts of a strong safety's job.

If used in the traditional way, the SS plays close to the LOS with a heavy emphasis on run support and covers the TE in man coverage schemes. The SS is not supposed to be a cover corner running step for step with receivers towards the end zone, but almost a pseudo LB who covers shallow routes and potentially funnels passing plays towards the FS's effective field of play.

In that traditional role Harper is a good fit, since he is well above average in run support - as a SS - is good at providing pressure on the QB, and can cover TEs on the shallow routes more than adequately as stated by those stats Papz referenced. I think more important than the number of INTs a SS has in determining his covering skills is for example the "passes defended" stats. In that regard Harper does pretty well when compared to for example William Moore from the Failclowns, who I have heard has been talked about as a SS with well above average coverage skills. During the last three seasons Harper has had 26 passes defended (8-7-11) while Moore has had 25 (8-9-8), so in that light Harper's stats aren't so bad.

What I'm trying to say is that Harper isn't as bad in coverage - when asked to cover like a traditional strong safety's job description states - but he is no cover CB nor a FS in the likes of Sharper, and never will be. There are many strong safeties with better coverage skills in the league, not to mention DBs in general, but that doesn't take away anything from the parts Harper does better than many other strong safeties in the league.

No player is perfect, but placing them in the ideal position to succeed will go a long way into masking the weaknesses that player may have, and that is what Ryan needs to do with Harper if he remains a Saint.