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Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
Drew Brees is easily one of the Top 5 greatest Quarterbacks in NFL history.
But this Version of Brees isn't exactly the 2011 Brees. Now I fully understand that I'll be ridiculed and possibly hung or stoned to death ( Witchitheth !!! ) for even insinuating this , but I think either one of two things is happening. 1. Something's up with Brees 2. We lost key pieces and chemistry by giving Brees the huge contract. In theory 1 I have noticed on countless occasions that it doesn't seem like Drew can hit the home-run ball anymore. Stills Twice in Atlanta , and so on a so forth. I'm sure you all have noticed as well. The good old cockback throw from Drew in the past 9/10 meant a touchdown , it now puts fear into any Saints supporter. Perhaps he's having shoulder issues or something that's being kept under wraps. In theory 2 much more likely .. I think cap space has been the most prominent thing crippling our team. Brees's contract came at the casualty of Bushrod , Nicks and at the time Meachem and Henderson. Now we know from a standpoint of talent we if anything upgraded at the receiver position but what about chemistry ? What about Kromer ? What about pass protection and Run Blocking ? It is very likely that both are contributors to our woes at 2-0 but it does bring the question of whether or not Brees should restructure his contract to allow space to give him quality protection.. What's your take ? |
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Personally I would rule out #1. I don't think something is up with him per se but he is not getting any younger. Everyone will turn to Brady and Manning and say that isn't an excuse but he is unlikely to be improving at this stage in his career.
As for #2, I'm not entirely sure that is the issue. I mean it will have made a massive difference for sure, but ultimately on any team, the Cap balances out. So if you sign players like Nicks to big contracts then you have smaller contracts for your QB and presumably a less capable QB than Brees. You have however inadvertently touched on what I think may be the exact problem ... Aaron Kromer. We have had a superb O-line for a good number of years and we certainly have personnel for that to continue but we have lost Kromer and so we may need time to re-gel what we have. With an inferior O-line, the run game is obviously less effective and I think Drew has half an eye on being whacked every play. For those that think losing Kromer was not such a big thing, the Chicago O-line which has been swiss cheese for years has now succumbed to just one sack in 2 games.... |
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Brees is still the man, no question. Being able to orchestrate that final drive against the Bucs when he was having a bad game just proves it. Agreed, he has been short on the long balls, so far, but is that his arm or lack of protection?
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
Good analysis
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Yeah MG9. I think what we've seen as far as the long passing game goes is a combination of a lot of factors. For one thing I don't think Stills is the deep threat Henderson or even Morgan is/was. Defenses just aren't scared of him. I think we're also seeing how vital Jhari Evans is now that he's struggling with his back issues. It's no secret that the way to get Brees off his game is to pressure him up the middle. Till now though nobody has been able to do it. I think this will work itself out because we have a great interior line.
Let's face it, this is kind of a mini rebuilding year. We have new faces all over the roster. I think we'll get better as the season goes along and we start getting healthier. (And once Payton finally faces the fact that Mark Ingram just isn't who he thought he was.) |
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You ask a man to attempt over 650 passes a season and it takes its toll.
Its no surprise that the zip isnt there at the moment/anymore.Its why a run game is needed,get him down to 550 attempts and 4300/4500 yards with the rest being made up in rushing yards and the team will be in a better position. So far we have 153 rushing yards this year,Oaklands QB has more rushing yards than our entire RB combined as do 6 other players.It cant go on like it is.Brees has gone from the 10th most attempts in 09 to first or second since and the team has not benefitted from it. |
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Brees is only going to take x amount of hits, sacks or shoves before his body hurts, then starts to get antsy which will cause a lot of mistakes. Our O-line better get their act together soon, from what I've seen so far our 100 million dollar man better roll out a lot more. It's very early in the season to have to worry about this, it should not be happening!!
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
The protection does look like it has some issues.
I thing Payton being back is causing issues. In 2011 and 2012 (Brees's best years) Payton was not calling the plays, Carmichael was. As it stands year to date I would much rather see Carmichael calling the plays. |
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You don't throw the ball 6,000 + times in 172 games and not have wear.
It's obvious Drew is losing some of his arm strength. What will save it however is a run game that's worth a spit. |
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the fix is we need a running game.
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Brees under-threw Henderson for years, there's nothing new here, just a little rust.
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I care note about Drew's turnovers than him underthrowing deep balls.. can't just give the other team the ball after the d works to give it to u. This isn't hot potato
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
I am amazed each and every day by the ignorance of Drew Brees's contract impact, and the Salary Cap history it self. Does anyone read anymore?
Cap Hits 2008 - 9M 2009 -10.3M 2010 - 12.3M 2011 - 10M 2012 - 10M Carl Nicks and Robert Meachem Gone 2013 - 17.4M Bushrod Henderson Gone Nicks and Meachem have nothing to do with Drew's Cap hit, they were gone at the end of 2011 and Drew's cap hit was flat through 2012... Henderson - He took a huge pay cut... We could have afforded him all day. He was a casualty of production, not Drew's Salary. We resigned Meachem for nearly the same amount. 2013 cap hit $840k 2012 cap hit $2.35M There is only 1 possible Salary Cap sacrifice and Bushrod is not worth $11.7M this year or 13.8M next year. He was manhandled quite a few times last year, or do we all forget. In 2013 the Saints have 2.7M in cap roll over from 2012 and 2.1M in adjustment from the NFL, Drew's cap hit increased by 7.4M - 4.8M means Drew's HUGINORMOUS contract has effected our salary cap a grand total of 2.8 Million Dolllars. That's all.... No more.... Get over it.... Let it go... Next year we can have this discussion again. What in the hell does Drew's contract or Cap Space have to do with Kromer? |
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Just need to rearrange a few pieces. |
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psst... look at LT
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
Sorry no question that Drew's contract has affect in later plans. No matter how much restructuring or whatever. You pay one player that much money & it's gonna hurt some where.
Next Kromer. He was the man. We are hurting without him. I figured there would be some blowback. But - the line just blows!! |
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Kromer was the man but his leaving had absolutely zero to do with Drew Brees or any player and had nothing to do with the Saints organization. Kromers move was career progression and Chicago had a spot for him just like Sean Payton coming here. Its business... The catch is that Drew hasn't "been paid" that yet and never will. His contract was built to be restructured for cap space with the bulk of the annual cap hit being in salary and not bonus distribution. Drew can drop his salary to $7M a year and his cap hit never goes over 14.4M/year. Right now Drew Brees Salary doesn't even make the Top 14 in the league 2013 NFL Top Base Salaries And his Cap His doesnt break the top 3, in 2014 he goes down on the list and the 2015 number will never happen unless we have our second Super Bowl win and then it just shuts up all the "Drews contract buried out team BS". 2013 NFL Top Cap Hit Salaries This is the first year that Drews contract escalates against the cap and that is all salary escalation. Are we worse off for it? Not by any means, flip back through the annuals of time here at B&G and you will see that Brown is doing as good if not slightly better than Bushrod did. Look at it as a car lease, you drove off the lot with a $90k car but you will never pay that. You are going to pay about $$8k a year for three years then turn it in or renegotiate the buying price. Would you like to know what puzzles the crap out of me? The same people that want to raise holy hell about Drew's contract are not willing to let it play out as it was designed to do... They jump to conclusions, and play the blame game for something that hasn't happened yet. Then they profess to take the "wait and see" approach on our defense that is presently kicking ass. These people live on the drama filled negative side of the battery. I am no ray of proverbial sunshine but I stand firm in the middle. |
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Drew Cap goes up to 18ml next but something will have to be done after that as 2015/16 its $26.4/27.4ml
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2 |
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I am about to do a cap thread, Drew's cap increase is incremental next year by 1M but we have bigger fish to fry.
Drew will restructure next year. |
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Some people just don't appreciate greatness until its gone I guess, finally the Saints land a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback and some want to tear him down every chance they get. Here's a great idea lets cut Drew so we can save money and bring back some scabs with the talent of the Billy Joe's or Aaron Brooks. Back when someone told me "to make money, you got to SPEND money", no difference here. When you have one of the best quarterbacks in the league, expenses come with that. Besides Bushrod will not be missed this season, any lineman that needs a chip block on damn near every play can easily be replaced
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I said it for years. As pass happy as we have been has taken a toll on Brees arm. Nothing we could have done about it but concentrate on the ground game which we did, but not as well as we needed to.
Hes getting old but he is still a top 5 qb. Payton just needs to adjust to the situation. Our line is more of a factor I think. Losing Kromer was huge. |
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I've given up trying to understand it! It's like people have this pre-written doom and gloom narrative about the contract in their heads, and THEN they watch the games looking for it. Every little thing that fits the narrative, gets amped up and blown out of proportion by them.....Every thing that doesn't fit that narrative, gets IGNORED, including 2-0 and Drew's amazing, 32nd career come-from-behind-4th-quarter drive. That's the 15th time he has done this for them in the 4th quarter, as a Saint, and STILL people are not happy with him!
Homer07 just proved it...show him facts and cap evidence to the contrary and it's "nope, sorry" and he repeats the same line about the contract as before. The fact of the matter is that I've concluded this fan base is extremely SPOILED. I could not believe that drive at that end of the game. After it was over I had to leave the room, I was walking up and down, pacing around the house, I couldn't sit still -- I couldn't believe what I had seen. People in my family called me and texted me on the phone, the second the kick went through, to share the moment.... I thought I would log on here in this forum on Monday morning and see people raving, out of their minds about how beautiful a thing that drive was.... I looked around and it seems like almost NOBODY here talked about it, at all -- all they do is b-tch and moan about the contract, and Brees underthrowing, this and that, nitpicking and grumbling. I cannot believe that people are kvetching and *****ing about Brees, and not appreciating what happened in the last 1:06 of that game. To do that with no time outs and no sidelines? If you're not completely pumped up and ready to chug the Drew Brees Nyquil after that drive, if you think that was ho-hum football, then something is not right with your head. That game was basically a lower scoring version of the ugly awful 49ers playoff game, except THIS TIME WE WON. |
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I'm not sure what's wrong with him, but he's going on the bench this week and I'm starting Mike Vick. I would have never made this move in the past.
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Payton indicated the desire to run a zone blocking scheme. 2013 would be inaugural season, if so. Do we need 4 new O linemen then?? If not, how long does it take to run an effective zone RBS?? |
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Honestly Sproles and Thomas are getting it done as we are. If you go through the play by play and focus on Ingram, you will see that he had an awful lot of second and third and shorts that he didnt make the 2-3 yards on for a 1st down. Ingram's YPC is not as damaging as his failures on 2-1, 2-2, 4-1 in the goal line... He didnt get at least 2 first downs and one TD where we needed no more than one to two yards. Watch New Orleans Saints vs. Tampa Bay Buccaneers [09/15/2013] - NFL.com Zone Blocking scheme is actually easier to run and favors fleet footed athletic linemen that usually get over powered by big d-linemen. Ive seen some of that going on lol. |
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So from what you are saying, the Saints offensive line should pick up a ZBS in like 5 minutes or maybe half a practice?
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Most of his carries are loss of yards or no gains... he actually sets the offense back when he gets the ball. I would hate on the guy less if he actually got 2 ypc. Hell, he even had a false start against Tampa... so disappointed in Ingram. |
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Thomas ave 4.8 YPC against Atlanta and 5.8 against Tampon Bay... Do we use a different line for PT to run? Does he have the ability to see running paths that no one else can see? Does our offensive line just dislike Ingram? Seriously.. When one consistently gets it done and the other doesn't, that sort of narrows some things down, doesn't it? |
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I was joking about how the Saints o-line can easily get over powered by bigger defensive lineman but I like your FACTS, you can't argue against facts
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Keeps me on my toes. |
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People were talking noise about how he had "lost it" in 2010 too, then he went and had the best year of his career in 2011. I would not be declaring the demise of Drew Brees just yet.
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
I don't think its people getting spoiled that are causing the questions about brees
The thing thats causing the questions are - 4 redzone trips - O TD's - granted a couple were ingram trying to run to the wrong endzone Throwing into coverage or just making bad decisions vs atlanta he completely missed the free safety break on the ball and he should have made the easy pick - lucky for us he dropped it, however brees threw a pick 3 plays later anyway He completely missed the linebacker dropping into coverage vs bucs when trying to force a pass to lance moore - INT , and then once again missed a wide open PT and made a trent dilfer type interception that nearly cost us the game (brees saved it at the end) I am in no way saying brees should be benched or anything close to that His decision making needs improvement, he is a 13 year veteran and an elite QB that over the years has become worse with his decisions. We need our running game to step it up to take some pressure off it but it still doesn't change the fact that he is consistently making questionable decisions and forcing passes like last year - except this year we have a defense I am convinced if we score 3 - 4 TD's a game our D will do the rest - we've only managed 3 TD's in the last two games combined |
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Stills is going to be better; Devery and Morgan didn't even see the field or figure as prominently in the passing pecking order as Stills has. Make no mistake - Brees' shoulder is weakening, it was reconstructed before he signed with the Saints - a big risk this team took to acquire him. And when the shoulder finally goes, so will the Saints; no passing game and no room to get another quarterback, nor the lcomplementary players' to make for an easier transition... Those two reasons, the declining, aging shoulder and the cap consuming number, were why I didn't like the Brees contract... In fact, maybe naive, but was surprised that Brees, who goes to great lengths to push the Team First Image, wasn't smart enough to engage in a 16mil/annum contract a year earlier - realizing a cap friendlier contract could have kept Nicks to protect him was BOTH his and team self-interests... Instead, the Saints were put in a lurch with a highly paid contract to Grubbs and left with none, no maneuvering room for to make personnel moves... Thank the maker that we finally started picking winners again in the draft or we'd be screwed right now; the Vaccaro forced turnover and the Stills deep ball (which he had to slow to catch an underthrown ball) were the two biggest plays in the Saints win in Week 1... |
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If Brees keeps taking shots like he has been in the last 2 games none of us will have anything to worry about, he'll be done!!
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I think ya'll are crazy. That just me.
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Can we make a thread for random fan speculation about how the franchise is going to suddenly burst into flames?
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Never said cut Brees ... Hope he has a career game every game from here on out , same goes for ingram ... Facts and opinions greatly differ and some facts are misguided ... Loomis is a genius of sorts and we need to do something about this blocking one way or another ... You think you're frustrated with ingrams 2 yard carries ... That same family dollar cheap blocking can easily get Brees massacred and god forbid hurt... The line sucks we shouldn't dismiss that because it's ingram struggling back there ... All of out backs are struggling ! Brees is struggling ... Nothing gets done without a line
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Re: Between a Rock and a Hard Place ...
Keep dwelling on the joy of being 2-0 well wakeup Monday and be 2-1
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