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SaintsBro 09-18-2013 10:09 AM

Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
"Broken down" literally as well as, discussed.

I had some down time, so I compiled a list of Saints red zone drives from the box scores of the two games. I included some drives from inside the 30 because they were close, or they seemed like important drives.

I was going to ask what people in the forum thought the problems were, but it became so glaringly obvious as I read them, that I just went ahead and highlighted them all in red. But this REALLY shows you what is going on, when you see them all together like this.

TAMPA BAY GAME

1st and 10 at TB 19 D.Brees pass incomplete short left to M.Colston (D.Goldson).
2nd and 10 at TB 19 (Shotgun) D.Brees sacked at TB 26 for -7 yards (G.McCoy).
3rd and 17 at TB 26 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete short left to D.Sproles.
4th and 17 at TB 26 (Field Goal formation) G.Hartley 44 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-J.Drescher, Holder-L.McCown.

---------------------------------------------------------

1st and 10 at TB 27 PENALTY on NO-M.Ingram, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at TB 27 - No Play.
1st and 15 at TB 32 M.Ingram left end pushed ob at TB 31 for 1 yard (M.Foster).

2nd and 14 at TB 31 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to D.Sproles to TB 25 for 6 yards (D.Revis).
3rd and 8 at TB 25 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete deep left to L.Moore.
4th and 8 at TB 25 (Field Goal formation) G.Hartley 43 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st and 10 at TB 34 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to D.Sproles to TB 30 for 4 yards (D.Goldson).
2nd and 6 at TB 30 D.Brees pass deep middle to J.Graham for 30 yards, TOUCHDOWN. The Replay Assistant challenged the runner broke the plane ruling, and the play was REVERSED. D.Brees pass deep middle to J.Graham to TB 1 for 29 yards (D.Goldson).

1st and 1 at TB 1 D.Brees pass incomplete short middle. Who was Drew throwing to here? What happened? I forget.]

2nd and 1 at TB 1 M.Ingram left end to TB 2 for -1 yards (D.Goldson, M.Foster).

3rd and 2 at TB 2 P.Thomas left tackle to TB 2 for no gain (D.Revis, A.Black).

4th and 2 at TB 2 (Field Goal formation) G.Hartley 20 yard field goal is GOOD, NULLIFIED by Penalty, Center-J.Drescher, Holder-L.McCown. PENALTY on TB-L.Johnson, Defensive Offside, 1 yard, enforced at TB 2 - No Play.
4th and 1 at TB 1 M.Ingram left end to TB 1 for no gain (L.David, M.Foster). The Replay Assistant challenged the runner broke the plane ruling, and the play was Upheld.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1st and 10 at TB 29 D.Brees pass incomplete short right to J.Graham [L.David].
2nd and 10 at TB 29 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass incomplete short left to P.Thomas.
3rd and 10 at TB 29 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to L.Moore to TB 14 for 15 yards (A.Black).
1st and 10 at TB 14 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to P.Thomas to TB 8 for 6 yards (J.Banks).
2nd and 4 at TB 8 D.Brees pass incomplete short middle. PENALTY on NO-J.Evans, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at TB 8 - No Play.
2nd and 14 at TB 18 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to P.Thomas to TB 17 for 1 yard (M.Barron, A.Clayborn).
3rd and 13 at TB 17 (Shotgun) D.Brees sacked at TB 23 for -6 yards (L.David).
4th and 19 at TB 23 (Field Goal formation) G.Hartley 41 yard field goal is GOOD

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st and 9 at TB 9 D.Brees spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2nd and 9 at TB 9 (Field Goal formation) G.Hartley 27 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-J.Drescher, Holder-L.McCown.
I just included this one because it affects our stats in the red zone, but obviously this was a HUGE drive, and extremely efficient. Can't fault them on red zone efficiency on this one!

FALCONS GAME

2nd and 6 at NO 24 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass deep left to K.Stills to ATL 9 for 67 yards (R.McClain; R.Alford). Pass 24, YAC 43
1st and 9 at ATL 9 M.Ingram right guard to ATL 7 for 2 yards (C.Peters; A.Dent).
2nd and 7 at ATL 7 P.Thomas right guard to ATL 7 for no gain (J.Babineaux). PENALTY on NO-J.Evans, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at ATL 7 - No Play.
2nd and 17 at ATL 17 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to D.Sproles to ATL 9 for 8 yards (S.Weatherspoon). PENALTY on NO-J.Evans, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at ATL 17 - No Play.

2nd and 27 at ATL 27 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to D.Sproles to ATL 20 for 7 yards (W.Moore). Pass 2, YAC 5
3rd and 20 at ATL 20 D.Brees pass short middle to D.Sproles to ATL 13 for 7 yards (R.McClain). Pass 1, YAC 6
4th and 13 at ATL 13 G.Hartley 31 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-J.Drescher, Holder-L.McCown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1st and 10 at ATL 31 P.Thomas right tackle to ATL 26 for 5 yards (C.Peters; A.Dent).
2nd and 5 at ATL 26 D.Sproles left guard to ATL 25 for 1 yard (C.Peters).
3rd and 4 at ATL 25 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass deep middle to M.Colston for 25 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Pass 25, YAC 0 10 10
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd and 12 at ATL 38 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass deep right to K.Stills to ATL 19 for 19 yards (R.McClain). Pass 19, YAC 0
1st and 10 at ATL 19 D.Sproles right guard to ATL 14 for 5 yards (T.DeCoud; S.Weatherspoon).
2nd and 5 at ATL 14 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to J.Graham pushed ob at ATL 7 for 7 yards (R.McClain). Pass 4, YAC 3
Timeout #1 by NO at 06:29.
1st and 7 at ATL 7 D.Brees pass short right to J.Graham for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st and 10 at ATL 27 D.Sproles right guard to ATL 26 for 1 yard (O.Umenyiora). ATL-C.Peters was injured during the play. His return is Probable.
2nd and 9 at ATL 26 D.Brees sacked at ATL 31 for -5 yards (P.Jerry).
3rd and 14 at ATL 31 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to M.Colston to ATL 12 for 19 yards (W.Moore). Pass 15, YAC 4
1st and 10 at ATL 12 M.Ingram left tackle to ATL 10 for 2 yards (W.Moore).
2nd and 8 at ATL 10 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to P.Thomas to ATL 11 for -1 yards (S.Weatherspoon). Pass -3, YAC 2
3rd and 9 at ATL 11 (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short middle to L.Moore to ATL 4 for 7 yards (R.McClain). Pass 6, YAC 1

4th and 2 at ATL 4 G.Hartley 22 yard field goal is GOOD
---------------------------------------------------------------

rezburna 09-18-2013 10:13 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
We need to throw in the red zone or run Pierre. I prefer throw like we use to. Graham goal line fade. Lance in the flats. Colston running the back of the end zone. Sproles on a out and in. Stuff like that.

TheOak 09-18-2013 10:18 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Jhari's injury and Ingrams left foot. Reasons for the bulk of that.

halloween 65 09-18-2013 10:27 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I would like to see us run it down their throats.

SaintsBro 09-18-2013 11:15 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Ouch. It gets even uglier, the more I look into it.

I looked at our backs, in JUST the red zone, or inside the 30. Obviously these numbers are compressed because of the short field, and ___ happens, but still.

Mark Ingram - 5 carries, for 4 yards (not counting the -5 false start penalty on him)
Pierre Thomas - 3 rushes for 5 yards. 3 catches for 7 yards.
Sproles - 3 rushes for 7 yards, 3 catches for 17.

So Ingram rushing = .8 YPC
Pierre = 1.6
Sproles = 2.3

Sproles passing = 5.6
Pierre passing = 2.3

I didn't fool with dropped passes, or which side they're rushing to, because ain't nobody got time for dat. But when you look at the sequences, or who did what, it looks like

(a) Ingram is not producing (which we already knew)
(b) Pierre is not producing as well as people think he is, when he IS given the ball in the red zone, and
(c) Sproles is being increasingly called on to bail the other two out, especially when you look at the sequencing of the plays, they will tend to go penalty/sack/Ingram, something bad happens, THEN Sproles... it's almost always going to Sproles AFTER a negative play or something bad happens. But sproles has the best yards and receptions of any of them!

No question, though, once we get inside the 15 yard line we have not been doing well at getting it into the end zone.

hagan714 09-18-2013 11:19 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
i love it when we are in the red zone 10 to yards out. thats drew comfort zone when passing. inside the 5 i will take 7 any day but i always expect 3

UK_WhoDat 09-18-2013 11:24 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Issues with plays to the left, rushing especially, but passes also

exile 09-18-2013 11:24 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Great breakdown. I'm looking at it different than most. Instead of pointing ALL blame on our RBs we may need to realize that our O-Line just isn't getting it done.

Also, our play calling has been a bit predictable. If you watch that goal line stop you will see that Tampa has too many free rushers for our number of blockers. From SPs comments I take it that they just guessed a perfect defense.

xan 09-18-2013 11:39 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintsBro (Post 529288)
Ouch. It gets even uglier, the more I look into it.

I looked at our backs, in JUST the red zone, or inside the 30. Obviously these numbers are compressed because of the short field, and ___ happens, but still.


I didn't fool with dropped passes, or which side they're rushing to, because ain't nobody got time for dat. But when you look at the sequences, or who did what, it looks like

Or didn't fool with Formation, Personnel, Play Design, Defensive Formation, successful blocks, missed blocks, and side of hash marks.


If I submitted this analysis for peer review, it would get rejected and my degree would be under suspicion. If we are going to bash, let's not ignore the data that might weaken our arguments.

SaintsBro 09-18-2013 11:45 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xan (Post 529302)
Or didn't fool with Formation, Personnel, Play Design, Defensive Formation, successful blocks, missed blocks, and side of hash marks.


If I submitted this analysis for peer review, it would get rejected and my degree would be under suspicion. If we are going to bash, let's not ignore the data that might weaken our arguments.


You do it. Be my guest.
http://momandwife.com/wp-content/upl...25-480-330.jpg

TheOak 09-18-2013 11:50 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xan (Post 529302)
Or didn't fool with Formation, Personnel, Play Design, Defensive Formation, successful blocks, missed blocks, and side of hash marks.


If I submitted this analysis for peer review, it would get rejected and my degree would be under suspicion. If we are going to bash, let's not ignore the data that might weaken our arguments.

In his defense and because I do a lot of the same analysis.

Most of the data you listed in your reply is not available unless you sit ant watch game tape and write it all down, the rest has to be paid for if it can be found.

Instead of digging down I will take it to a higher level.

Red Zone Efficiency Scoring TDs only
2012 Red Zone % New Orleans Saints #2 68.52%
2013 thus far New Orleans Saints #32 14.29%
33.33% against Atlanta
0% against Bucs

The mean this season (Only two games to go on) is 62.65%

TheOak 09-18-2013 11:51 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I can break down the R/L.. give me 15 mins.. It will not be Red Zone though,, that info is not available unless I pay.

This will take longer than 15mins i have to collect the data by player.

TheOak 09-18-2013 12:16 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Mark Ingram
Right Sideline 1att 3 YPC
Right Side 7att 1.9 YPC
Left Side 4att 4 YPC
Left Sideline 5att -0.2YPC

Pierre Thomas
Right Sideline 2att 4.0 YPC
Right Side 4att 5.3 YPC
Middle 1att 6.0 YPC
Left Side 5att 5.4 YPC
Left Sideline 2att 5.0YPC

Darren Sproles
Right Sideline 1att 5 YPC
Right Side 5att 3.6 YPC
Middle 1att 3 YPC
Left Side 6att 2.3 YPC
Left Sideline 2att 4 YPC

Right Sideline Average
4 Att 4 YPC
Right Side Average
16 Att 3.6 YPC
Middle Average
2 Att 4.5 YPC
Left Side Average
15 Att 3.9 YPC
Left Sideline Average
9 Att 2.9 YPC


Pierre is solid any where we run him but has a tendency to gain a little better on the Left Side

Sproles has had better success running to the Right, Clearly stronger kicking it out to either sideline than going up the gut.

Ingram seems to be better Left of Center.

The Brown/Grubs lane seems to be better for rushing.*I am sure this will surprise a lot of people.

xan 09-18-2013 12:32 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I want to be clear that I'm not challenging anyone's feeling for what they percieve as effective or not. We see a play on TV, with limited viewing angle. We don't know what was called or what the reads were, or even who was responsible for what in the play.

The play lasts for 3-5 seconds during which the field of view diminishes to that of the ballcarrier and his immediate surroundings. Unless it was a key play, one will only get maybe one more look at it, but from a different angle which is likely to be just as narrow and not inclusive of all the activity leading up to the execution.

There is a vast amount of critical information that is missing to determine a cause based solely on tv replay.

And while I suspect everyone may begrudgingly accede to the following point, I must note that if your opponent knows what's coming and keys on it, and has the personnel to execute, it is not likely the offense will succeed. It is even less likelier in the red zone where the field is compressed; proximity to the plays direction and intent make each defender more impassable. This is why play design and misdirection are far more successful than brute leverage over an informed defense.

TheOak 09-18-2013 12:42 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
When you are looking at 1 play that all matters, when you are looking at a body of work getting lost in the woods can keep you from seeing the forest from the trees. Indeed Ingram is boxed into a narrow box of execution; perhaps if he blocked better or had better hands he would be presented with a more versatile portfolio?

The painting I see is a Power back with no Power; and as pointed out in the article by BR, seems to have misplaced nearly all of his fundamentals.

That being said if Mark Valentino Ingram Jr. scores 3 TDs and gains 150 yards in every game from this pint on i will be tickled pink.

|Mitch| 09-18-2013 01:41 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 529318)
That being said if Mark Valentino Ingram Jr. scores 3 TDs and gains 150 yards in every game from this pint on i will be tickled pink.

Good Luck with that; considering the Cardinals have the 3rd best rushing defense allowing 58.0 yards a game...

Mardigras9 09-18-2013 02:45 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I'd like to see Ingram even break the 100 yard/game mark first.

rezburna 09-18-2013 02:55 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Mark Ingram is power back with no power. Exactly what Oak said. They need to either diversify how they use him, or don't use him at all. And we need to run right up the middle with him and Pierre Thomas.

halloween 65 09-18-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Good analysis. Here's mine. Hartley for 3. Our O aint' hitting on crap. We have seen them demolish good D's before, why not now. It should be Hartley for a P.A.T.!!

TheOak 09-18-2013 05:21 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 529403)
Good analysis. Here's mine. Hartley for 3. Our O aint' hitting on crap. We have seen them demolish good D's before, why not now. It should be Hartley for a P.A.T.!!

Great. Take Fartley out there and get-er-done.

I'm assuming you and Fartley have figured out how to:

1. Get field position after kick off.
2. Score a TD so he can kick a PAT?

Last I checked Fartley owes 3 PATs to the offense so he and Drew are tied at 18 a piece. Care to guess how long that lasts?

Rugby Saint II 09-18-2013 08:44 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
We look ineffective inside the 20.

halloween 65 09-18-2013 10:18 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOak (Post 529442)
Great. Take Fartley out there and get-er-done.

I'm assuming you and Fartley have figured out how to:

1. Get field position after kick off.
2. Score a TD so he can kick a PAT?

Last I checked Fartley owes 3 PATs to the offense so he and Drew are tied at 18 a piece. Care to guess how long that lasts?

My guess is until 1 scores.

WillMacKenzie 09-18-2013 10:42 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I miss the days of wondering what Payton would do next. I remember the Dallas game that basically sent Parcells into retirement. Fullbacks scoring like 4 TDs in a night, Bush sweeping across while Deuce plowed ahead for another 1st down. Creativity is a bit stagnant lately.

We'd be unstoppable if we could get our offensive line at least to the skill level of the inflatable pass-rush dummies defensive linemen train with.

halloween 65 09-18-2013 11:21 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie (Post 529572)
I miss the days of wondering what Payton would do next. I remember the Dallas game that basically sent Parcells into retirement. Fullbacks scoring like 4 TDs in a night, Bush sweeping across while Deuce plowed ahead for another 1st down. Creativity is a bit stagnant lately.

We'd be unstoppable if we could get our offensive line at least to the skill level of the inflatable pass-rush dummies defensive linemen train with.

That was funny, my ribs hurt!!

AlaskaSaints 09-19-2013 02:31 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
I find myself looking forward to the defensive positions for scoring position... Is that bad?...

;-]]

TheOak 09-19-2013 06:49 AM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie (Post 529572)
I miss the days of wondering what Payton would do next. I remember the Dallas game that basically sent Parcells into retirement. Fullbacks scoring like 4 TDs in a night, Bush sweeping across while Deuce plowed ahead for another 1st down. Creativity is a bit stagnant lately.

We'd be unstoppable if we could get our offensive line at least to the skill level of the inflatable pass-rush dummies defensive linemen train with.

Yes sir! Remember that pass? How many times have we seen that play? Ive yet to see someone say "that was new" around here in a while.

Remember the flea-flicker in the 2nd Qtr Sunday? When i saw that I got pumped, I expected more creativity after that.

homerj07 09-20-2013 04:50 PM

Re: Saints Red Zone Trips, Broken Down
 
Ouch.


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