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.... some of you guys be talking about Brooks as the problem?

Some folks are so agenda driven. If anyone is talking about anything other than our horrible defense, then you've got an agenda to push. Hey, but that's nothing new.

Thankfully, any Saints' fan worth his salt knows who the agenda pushers are.

How can anyone of the agenda pushers have any credibility left? In my book, they have ZERO credibility.

If Jake Delhomme has taught us anything (besides being a one year wonder) is that it takes a team to be successful.

And the agenda hounds are finding some success only because they team up to push their anti-Brooks agenda.

That it all............. :o

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Ahhh yes. How COULD someone continue to focus on Brooks if they\'re watching the same games I am? I know exactly how, but saying it tends to hurt feelings...at least when I do it.

This is presently happening to me, but I shall not waiver. ;)

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saintfan --

Just take some comfort in the fact that (their boy) Delhomme sucks. It makes my day a little brighter.

You don\'t hear \'em saying too much about Delhomme now do ya? But it sure was different last year.

Ahhhhh..... ain\'t it sweet?? ;)

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They brush off Jake Delhomme now like an ex-girlfriend.

:doh:

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Sounds about right. But they lose credibility on evaluating QB\'s. If it were up to them we\'d have Jake and we\'d have a QB who\'s leading the ENTIRE NFL in interceptions.

Hell, Jake can\'t win with the Panthers defense and they are ranked 8th in the NFL RIGHT NOW!!

Wonder how Jake would do with our 32 ranked defense?

You just have to laugh at those guys and not take it personally. They know they are pushing agendas and that\'s what they like to do.

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I love Brooks and don\'t wanna get caught in all this \"agenda\" talk, and I definitely do not feel Brooks is the entire problem(although that goal line fumble in Arizona and red zone INT against Minny didn\'t help), so maybe 5% of the problem at the most, but could injuries have anything to do with Jake\'s inefficiency this year? Their o-line is horrible, their top back was hurt and is playing hurt, second string back went down, their #1 receiver went down, notice a trend? Did anyone think Muhammed had anything left when Jake went to Carolina? Did anyone think Smith was more than a return man? Jake made these players very relevant to the rest of the NFL. Did you see him shred New England\'s D in the Superbowl? Yikes.

I would love to have either he or AB but we have AB so he\'s my guy. He definitely is not the problem though, just like Jake is not the problem in Carolina.

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Just to continue, I think a lot of AB\'s problems can be traced to McCarthy and his predictable play-calling. I will use Culpepper as an example. In recent years he has had a problem with fumbles too, but not this year. The O-coordinator in Minny changed the game up for him. If anyone has noticed Culpepper runs less and lines up in shotgun more. The shotgun gives him more time to get rid of the ball and they don\'t do those goalline Culpepper draws any more, they just toss it up to their receivers from the 1, 2, whatever.

McCarthy does not do this for AB, or at least he has nto so far. Why don\'t we see AB in more shotgun? Who in the world doesn\'t know now if Karney is in, we are running? Why don\'t we pass in these situations more? Why when we are only down by a score(take the Minny game at the start of the second half) do we come out and throw 3 straight times instead of using Deuce against one of the worst defenses in the league? McCarthy is putting AB in positions to fail, and AB is suffering because of it.

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Of course injuries matter, and certainly Jake\'s performance suffers, but that\'s the whole point. Last year a select few members here thought Jake was the second coming, while others of us were of the opinion that Jake is propped up rather nicely by receivers that help him out tremendously, an incredible running game and an even better defense. Jake doesn\'t have those things now and these same people are quick to point out all the injuries. The thing is that these are the same people that refused to acknowledge injuries relative to the Saints. Kinda funny ain\'t it?

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I see your point and can not disagree. I guess I am kinda playing both sides here since I like Jake and AB. I am defending Jake to you and defending AB to others so we really aren\'t in disagreement. I have seen the trend of prior conversations to go toward the \"look at what Jake could have done for us\" variety and I can see both sides of that. If we had a top 10 D I am sure AB would look a whole lot better to others just as I am sure if Carolina wasn\'t losing everyone who mattered Jake would be doing well again this year. Bottom line, if AB is any part of the problem, it is 5% or less I feel. He still doesn\'t know what a touch pass is or when to throw it away even in the red zone, but he has played well despite having heaps of pressure on him to perform and with Deuce being out. I blame McCarthy for Brooks not being as efficient as he could be and blame Haslett for coddling him instead of developing him.

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Whodi, I am accused regularly (by ones who get their feelings hurt, by accusations oddly enough) of being a Brooks \"lover\". This is because I have stated over and over and over again that he\'s not the problem. When you score like the Saints typically score how on earth you justify complaining about the QB is amazing! My specific argument has always been that he\'s plenty good enough (and much better than is required in my opinion) to take this team to the Superbowl. I was hollerin\' loud and proud here for YEARS (two at least) about the defense and the dropped passes and the o-line, but to no avail...not where the Brooks Bashers are concerned. They were (and still are) more interested in his contract.

The defense, back then, was never mentioned, while I was screaming about the offense having to score 30+ points a game to win, yet you still have a select few harping on the QB\'s stats.

I had been screaming about the dropped pass issue for a year and a half before the Brooks bashers decided it might be an issue...and they only started to acknowledge it after the media figured it out.

I maintain now as I have for a least a year now that our o-line is inconsistant at best. They have some decent games and some terrible games. Some (at least one in particular) use the word \"excel\" to describe the o-line\'s performance, but typically only when they\'re (he)debating with me.

I\'m not the only one, but I\'m in the minority here based on those that post regularly. When the hypocricacy is at such a high level, a particular word comes to mind that more than adequately describes it, but when used, it offends the two or three people it most accurately describes and the whining starts.

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Like I said Saintfan I don\'t disagree with you, and have read both sides of it. Both make good points but there is one inherent difference in Jake and AB(let me preface this by saying I too believe Brooks can lead us to the Superbowl): Jake is a qb who will not win games for you, but he will not lose them either. He will make the correct throws and limit mistakes more often than not, present season and injuries withstanding. Some people like that kind of qb, some hate them.

AB is the opposite, he WILL win games for you but he WILL lose games for you as well. This is the main crux of many people\'s frustrations with him. Like the Saints in general, you wanna root for AB, but he can rip your heart out sometimes and the next game make you a believer again. This kind of up and down creates turmoil. I am sure that we all wish AB could find a happy medium, cause at that point he will be a much more consistent qb, but it is not gonna happen with the guys we have coaching. Also, the dropped passes and inconsistent o-line definitely hurt AB more than anyone else. So since AB is a player who does have the ability to win games, he needs to be put in positions to do so, and that just isn\'t happening. I will be patiently watching to see if he develops at a more rapid pace under a new regime. But I close again in saying AB is not the problem, this year. Those fumbles from last year still tick me off though.

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Almost time for another round of BC\'s greatest hits I see. LOL!!!

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Gator, I gotta agree with you again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind. That is the point of actually discussing.

I also agree that all this agenda stuff is based on a historical argument that requires the belief that no one could have every misspoke, exaggerated, or have changed their mind. I don\'t get it. Other than 08, who clearly states when he\'s making something up, I think that it should not be assumed that someone has the same position for the same reason. I also argued LONG AGO that attacks on the person, rather than the content of the post were innane. Do you remember the response I got to this? I do. Everyone told me to shut up because it was important to make sure that everyone understood the AGENDA. Hmmm. I\'m glad people are coming around to this.

Billy and Saintfan, as usual, I agree that Brooks is far from the problem. On the other hand, and maybe this is just my faulty perception here, I don\'t remember too many people complaining about Brooks who didn\'t retract those arguments once pushed.

Whodi, thanks for your courage to continue to try and make sense of the claims you hear here. In my opinion, you are the best new poster we\'ve had in some time.

Now, two points:
1. Gator, I don\'t think I get your \"half truths\" point? I think that no one intended to leave anything out (i.e. present only half the information) to mislead people. People present arguments that are on one side or the other, certainly - sometimes both sides (as is the case in your flip-flop analogy). It is up to the others to determine whether or not they are correct - either by additional investigation or presentation of counter arguments, don\'t you think?

2. Billy, where the heck are you? At any rate, here is argument for you that I\'ve been considering. QBs are strongly influenced by their coaches. QBs have a critical development period (something like the first 4 or 5 years). If a QB does not develop during that critical period, they will not reach their full potential. Haz has caused AB to be a bit babied and not pressed as hard as he could have been. This has caused AB to miss his development period. Thus, AB has reached as high as he can at this point, due to Haz. A change of scenery may help AB get that little bit more he can.

I argued that a coaching change may be sufficient to get AB to get that little bit more he can (and right now I still believe that), but the reply was that only a change of scenery could help. Don\'t get me wrong, I think AB is a fine QB (as you know), but as far as his development goes, what say you to these ideas?

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Well I agreed with you up \'til there. I think he\'ll lose games just like any other QB will lose games. Jake makes a LOT of ill-advised throws...a LOT of \'em. Up \'til now he\'s had receivers that could bail him out, and bail him out they did. I\'ll get hit over the head with something for saying it, but his luck has run out. Those things even out in the end.

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I don\'t know Saintfan. People were saying Muhammed was gonna be cut because of his salary and lack of production before Jake got there. I know many people remember it being said Steve Smith could not be a #1 receiver, only a return man. I think that had as much to do with Jake as Jake being successful had to do with them. For example, no bigger stage than the Superbowl. Jake did not lose this game for them. He put the ball in a position for his players to make plays, and they did, and almost win. In the biggest game of his life, first year starting, he was the offensive star of his team. But he wasn\'t spectacular. He put others around him in a position ot do what they do. I can\'t say I saw him personally lose too many games last year, this year is a different story though.

And JKool, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate that.

[Edited on 21/10/2004 by saintswhodi]

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Indeed he did...and as I recall I was on this very board after the game giving Jake his props. BUT, who leads the league in INT\'s?

When a guy underthrows a pass by 10 yards and the receiver has the presence of mind to come back for the ball, I credit the WR. When the QB throws off his back foot, going backwards, and tosses the ball 15 yards down the field where NONE of his receivers are, and one of his teammates manages to get himself to the ball, then the guy I credit isn\'t the QB. This is not to say Jake doesn\'t have great touch, because he does, but he makes equally bad decisions.

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Wait just a second there... not EVERYone. I for one egged you on... of course I nicknamed you granola boy, but I was a big fan of the tree huggin\' granola eatin\' bongo playin\' can\'t we all just get along message you were spreadin\' all over this land. ;) LOL

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Saintsfan, since we seem to both agree Jake was a better player last year, could the injuries to the parts around him and regression of the offensive line in front of him have something to do with his poor play?

Let\'s take Jay Fiedler as an example in Miami. 33-14 or something crazy like that with Miami. Ricky leaves and where does he and his team go? Into the crapper. Bledsoe has not been the same since Price left and their o-line became swiss cheese. Seems to me that maybe the circumstances around Jake changed and not Jake, as can happen for many qbs. As I said, he is not a playmaker so him trying to be one doesn\'t fit, leading to mistakes. That\'s the Jake we see this year. That\'s just my take though. I don\'t think it makes either of us wrong if we see it differently.

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Of course the injuries matter. I agree with you totally. My point where the Brooks bashers (the ones with their feelings on their sleeves recently) would NEVER recognize them...still won\'t.

The thing with Jake is he\'s doing what he\'s always done...tossin the ball down the middle of the field with no idea where it\'s going...only now there\'s no one on the other end to bail him out. He actually threw a TD pass that way earlier this year. The guy was on his way down and threw the ball straight up into the air. The TE ran over and caught the ball. This isn\'t talent or leadership or \"it\" or whatever some wanna call it, it\'s luck, and his has run out.

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I did see the pass in question and that was a ridiculous play. Just boneheaded. The tight end most definitely bailed him out on that play. Not at all like the Delhomme of last year, but I have already stated my reason as to why that is. I guess when everyone gets healthy and they hopefully address their line situation(or maybe not since this is better for the Saints) we will see which Jake is true. Hey, better for the Saints if he is really a bust right?

And I can\'t be counted among the Brooks bashers so I really can\'t speak to that situation. As I said I like Jake and AB but I can see how people could dislike either.

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I like Jake too...always have, but I don\'t blame Haz for his not playing like lots of others. MANY NFL \"experts\" passed on Jake, so I don\'t see Haz missing that boat as an indictment as some others have suggested. That rabbit hole goes pretty deep.

The thing is that \'round here you can\'t support Brooks without being assumed as biased against Jake. It works the other way too. You either buy into the \"Haz conspired against Jake\" theory or your bashed as a \"lover\" of Brooks. Silly? Yes, but true nonetheless.

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I see what you are getting at. Just to let you know though, I don\'t feel like you have to dislike one to like the other. I also could careless if Haslett could evaluate Jake or not cause he has shown more often than not he is wrong about players. (Tebucky, Sully, Hand, Glover, Knight, Dale Carter, Bulger, Turley, Connell, etc. etc.). Jake was put into the right system and the right situation, no telling if this would have been the right system for him. That\'s all hindsight. Like I said before, give AB a top 10 defense and we will see how he does then compared to Jake. Having to score 30 a game is no way for a qb to flourish. We all agree he is not Peyton Manning or Daunte Culpepper.

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http://saintsreport.com/modules.php?...ticle&artid=21
That\'s how Brooks can be the problem. Tremendous physical talent, no mental or interpersonal skills to go with it.

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See What I mean. LOL

Note the name of the poster too. ;)

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[Edited on 22/10/2004 by BrooksMustGo]

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Who,

My bad. \"Everyone\" was a serious overstatement. I should have said some people.

<Smile>

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Coaches who don’t properly game plan and make adjustments during the game and not make them after we are 14+ points down will make any quarterback look bad. Get a coaching staff the knows how to work on players strengths than you will see better players and plays. Brooks IMO is only about 5% of the problems. Horn and Stallworth have been dropping quite a few passes this year. Brooks has been pretty solid a few mistake but solid none the least. The O-line at times is non-existence which forces Brooks in erratic plays, forms and decisions. Brooks will not be traded and that’s that people. Yes he made the comments but out of frustration. Until we get a better coaching staff the Saints will be up/down all year.

Dat #44 is a beast, which makes Deuce look like a monster running, with his ankle injury he is going to break some gainers pretty soon.

Now Henderson may get some playing time - good but lets see if he runs routes that will maximize his speed (coaching people) because Stallworth could be used just a little more affective or have better routes to run than what they are doing and yes I am aware of his drops etc. Also an aggressive game plan is needed from this point in the season on out

I am not mentioning defense!!!!!! Well Venturi is the problem, if we would have kept pressure on Culpepper we may could have won that game because BROOKS was bringing us back. Tebuckly is not a total bust. Our secondary is really confused by the run, linebacker are you in the house!!!!! Both safeties are our leading tacklers that says something. Brown and McKenzie is starting we should see more PSI on Collins this week …..

And the saga continues …….stay tuned

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Do I hear bongo music?

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[Edited on 22/10/2004 by saintfan]

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He was edited for breaking his own rule. That\'s all you need to know.

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What rule? Was I asking a question?

My comment was merely a response to Who\'s being right about my overstatement - which, as near as I could tell had nothing to do with nothing...

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Kool, the question was related to Whodat\'s post, not yours. Don\'t sweat it. It had nothing to do with your post a\'tall. All this stuff needs to end, but quick, and the ball is rollin\'...

[Edited on 22/10/2004 by saintfan]

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I see. Sort of anyway.

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All this needs to end. Let this post be a warning to all my faithful friends and mods that this feud or whatever is going on has to end right now or I will be entering into your world(s) to fix it.

Please stop all of this and if need be, stay away from each other.

Thank you.

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yall cry too much

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our problems r obvious. our d our coaching staff. i wish our biggest problem was brooks\' ability to not always be on the mark. that would be a welcome at this point. we need a change now. this team or this coaching staff is obvioulsy not going to get it done. how can it be players after 5 years. n if it is that still go\'s back to coaching because they have been here for 5 years. im sure there r a few player problems without a doubt. so we need a change.

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It seems to me, Gumbo, that you are the one with an \"agenda\". Your agenda is to defend the clown of a quarterback no matter what he does, or how many times he fails. There has to be a reason, or, an \"agenda\" there for someone to be so foolish to do something like that. Search your soul and see if you can come up with the REAL reason that you keep defending him even though he has had several years to make it here, and simply has not and probably never will. He is a loser, and it is not very hard to see that. What is there about him that makes you so willing to go to battle for him. I look at players and judge them by their performance and production alone. I have years of his failures as proof. All people like you can do is tell us about how good he is going to be someday...what is your \"agenda\"?

Brooks is a loser.

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but saintlb i think what he was saying is that this seasons failure is not brooks fault n how can people blame him for it. n i know u cant possibly be putting the blame of this season on him. r u?

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He is the QB, he takes the lion share of the blame, along with the head coach. Isn\'t it possible that these players around him don\'t like him, and have given up on him. Isn\'t it possible, that if someone else came in that they might rally around someone new. It is no secret that his teammates have talked about his personality issues. He would not have been given this much time to turn the corner at any other franchise. Time is up for Brooks and Haz.