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SaintFanInATLHELL 10-28-2004 08:36 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
This one question should be the entire focal point of the Saints defense. Down the stretch we're going to play 7 games against teams whose offensive strength is running the ball (KC, Denver, SD, Carolina twice, and I'm throwing in the Falcons who are currently in the top 3).

So there are two questions that need to be addressed:

Why can't the Saints stop the run?

What can be changed to improve the run defense?

I have some vague ideas about the first question. Run defense seems to have three major elements: talent, scheme, and attitude. The Saints seem to fail on the latter two. I simply am not saavy enough to know if we have the talent to do the job.

Let's presume that the talent pool is fixed. We're not going to get anymore players on defense. Also let's presume that attitude will come with some success.

So on to the second question: what can be changed about the scheme to improve the run defense? Conventional wisdom says to bring a safety into the box, creating an 8 man front. Do the Saints do this? Does it help? What about run blitzing?

I'm just looking for some answers. I believe that in the next 5 games, that the defense's attitude is going to have to be stop the run at any and all costs. Even if it means giving up 300+ yards in the passing game. Which BTW I think that with McKenzie and Brown won't necessarily happen.

Can the Saints find a way to do it? If so then how?

I found a post in Google Groups that talks about the Chiefs and Broncos former defensive coordinator: Greg Robinson. It spoke to the type of defensive run scheming that works with a complementary offense that has big scoring ability. Check it out here:

http://tinyurl.com/7x4n8

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL 10-28-2004 02:12 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
I\'m bumping this post so that I can get some commentary.

I know the problem is perplexing, but someone has to have an idea. Right? :)

SFIAH

BrooksMustGo 10-28-2004 02:37 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
We could line up 2 bulldozers side by side at DT. Run a trip wire in front of the linebackers. Dig a trench at the line of scrimmage.

Really I have no idea how to fix it. We\'ve spent more time trying to fix this than anything else under Haslett and it\'s still just bad.

Generally, I\'d rather not blitz. Blitzing requires more than the defense can do. I\'d rather try to avoid over pursuit, try to keep the gap assignments and try to take away the short/intermediate passing game. Easy to type, but seems impossible for this defense to do.


fact-o-bake 10-28-2004 02:38 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
My humble opinion is that the way our defenders play the game is the root of the problem. I don\'t have the luxury of watching game tape with the coaches, but I can watch recorded games in slow motion. The saints defensive lineman don\'t take on blockers well enough, leaving them access to our linebackers, who in turn rarely shed the blocks. The times that the blockers are held at the line, our linebackers are often slow at hitting the holes. Our tackling has improved this year over the past two years, but the agressivenss of our linebackers is lacking. They rarely punish the tight ends, or fullbacks who are lead blocking, and try to run around them often taking themselves out of the play, and leaving the blocker to take on a defensive back. With that said I think it\'s up to the coaching staff to recognize these problems and correct them.

JKool 10-28-2004 03:09 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
I have two suggestions:

1. Commit only one DE to the pass rush - ever (well at least on 1st and 2nd and short yardage 3rds). Charles Grant ought to focus on getting to the QB on every play. Sure, he can make tackles against the run, but why bother. What is happening now is that the DL is being opportunistic rather than effective as a group. That is, there are too many guys trying to get deep in the backfield. Our problem is that we have good pass rushers - Young, Howard, Smith, and Grant. However, we don\'t have any run stuffers. I suppose Green is ok, but whopee. The idea here is to have the other linemen focus on gaps (or run slides or shifts) - either way, those other guys ought to free up our tacklers (ha ha) the LBs.

2. Blitz the SLB or SS more frequently - run blitz them though. This guy\'s job is to come in shallow on the line. This will enable him to diagnose the run on his way and blow up the blockers or slide down them to the point of attack. If it isn\'t a run, then he gets a shot to the backfield.

This should shore up the run. Who knows what it\'ll do to the pass. Of course, this is the problem for scheming that was mentioned earlier. It would be helpful to diagnose the run better - this way my suggestions could be implemented when they\'d help (rather than just haphazardly).

I\'m also of the opinion that if Rogers is any good at SLB they ought to move him there (Hodge and Allen are liabilities most of the time). This way, we can have Ruff play the middle, Watson the WLB, and Rogers and have them all on the field at the same time.

SaintFanInATLHELL 10-28-2004 05:56 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

We could line up 2 bulldozers side by side at DT. Run a trip wire in front of the linebackers. Dig a trench at the line of scrimmage.
Funny!

Quote:

Really I have no idea how to fix it. We\'ve spent more time trying to fix this than anything else under Haslett and it\'s still just bad.
And true. Jacksonville fixed it. Didn\'t Billy post a defense 101 link this summer to that article?

Quote:

Generally, I\'d rather not blitz. Blitzing requires more than the defense can do.
My figuring is that blitzing can\'t do any more damage than what has already been done. We\'re giving up huge chunks of yards and points by the bucket full now. Why not try to be disruptive?

Quote:

I\'d rather try to avoid over pursuit, try to keep the gap assignments and try to take away the short/intermediate passing game. Easy to type, but seems impossible for this defense to do.
Yup. Maybe that requires too much thought.

I think that\'s part of the issue. Venturi and Haslett (and not Pease) keep trying to train the players to fit within their system. It\'s not working, and you\'re stuck with the players. Why not try to find a system that fits the talents of the players?

SFIAH

themightyduck 10-28-2004 07:21 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Does anyone believe that it might also be personnel? Our ends overpursuing in the pass rush? DT\'s not taking on double teams well and opening up gaps? LB\'s who can\'t sustain a block and then make a good tackle?

Coaching could easily be the main problem, but do the players deserve some of the brunt for bad execution?

JKool 10-28-2004 08:18 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
SFIAH,

I\'ve been agreeing with you a lot lately, but I have to disagree with you on the blitzing point.

When you blitz, you are commiting guys to areas of the field before the play even starts (with the exception of delayed blitzes) - this is why zone coverages are better against the run than man (which you are usually forced into when you blitz). In a zone coverage your defensive players are facing the attack almost the entire time; in man, you turn your back at some point. A blitz is very much like that in that you have a planned gap and you go there - not going there will cause the blitz to fail; however, if the play goes the other way, your blitzers may well get too deep to make a play.

Furthermore, regular blitzes require the player to head for the QB, so if it is a run, the player will be off target at the outset of the play. This is why I\'ve been advocating run blitzes, where players close to the line rather than the backfield. It is my belief that our front line can be disruptive on its own and sending one LB to the line isn\'t going to hurt us too much, since they\'ve not been too strong in pass coverage so far.

Thus, in principle blitzing more is a somewhat good idea, but I think whether it is or isn\'t depends A LOT on game planning (i.e. anticipating run or pass) and on whether or not the blitz is of the right kind (this is a lot more complex than most fans think).

BlackandBlue 10-28-2004 08:48 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Nice knowledge, JKool. And if we were to commit the linebacker, why not make Will Smith that guy. ;)

SaintFanInATLHELL 10-29-2004 12:06 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

SFIAH,

I\'ve been agreeing with you a lot lately, but I have to disagree with you on the blitzing point.
Actually it isn\'t a agree/disagree type point. I started this thread to ask questions that I really don\'t know the answer to. Just throwing out suggestions...
Quote:

When you blitz, you are commiting guys to areas of the field before the play even starts (with the exception of delayed blitzes) - this is why zone coverages are better against the run than man (which you are usually forced into when you blitz). In a zone coverage your defensive players are facing the attack almost the entire time; in man, you turn your back at some point. A blitz is very much like that in that you have a planned gap and you go there - not going there will cause the blitz to fail; however, if the play goes the other way, your blitzers may well get too deep to make a play.
So a blitz forces you to commit. And if the play doesn\'t coincide with the committment then you have additional problems. OK. I can see that.
Quote:

Furthermore, regular blitzes require the player to head for the QB, so if it is a run, the player will be off target at the outset of the play. This is why I\'ve been advocating run blitzes, where players close to the line rather than the backfield. It is my belief that our front line can be disruptive on its own and sending one LB to the line isn\'t going to hurt us too much, since they\'ve not been too strong in pass coverage so far.
So that\'s the difference between a run blitz and a pass blitz. New question: does a run blitz still cause the same committment problems? i.e. a player is out of position if the run bounces to the outside?
Quote:

Thus, in principle blitzing more is a somewhat good idea, but I think whether it is or isn\'t depends A LOT on game planning (i.e. anticipating run or pass) and on whether or not the blitz is of the right kind (this is a lot more complex than most fans think).
I see. I guess I\'m just frustrated watching the defense struggle. It just seems like on the vast majority of plays, both run and pass, that the linebackers are moving away from the line of scrimmage at the snap. This just doesn\'t seem conducive to good run defense.

SFIAH

JKool 10-29-2004 02:22 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

So that\'s the difference between a run blitz and a pass blitz. New question: does a run blitz still cause the same committment problems? i.e. a player is out of position if the run bounces to the outside?
The simple answer is yes.

The more complex answer is this: on a running play, you want guys headed to the point of attack - where the play will hit the LOS, rather than into the backfield.

If a running play cuts back or is \"bounced outside\", then it is up to the pursuit to make the play - the idea of a run blitz is the same as a regular blitz: stop the play before it starts.

Our problem, in general, is too many guys in the backfield (or trying to get there - they\'re actually being over aggressive) and not enough guys at the LOS. Thus, this comes down to, as many have pointed out, game planning (which is on the coaches).

However, it is my view that we turn our D-line loose too often. Controlled blitzes is generally the answer to this problem - which I thought was the question. Furthermore, it is easier to adjust a run blitz to a pass blitz than the converse - since you commit at the beginning of the play. With our improved coverage (i.e. Mike Mc and F. Brown), the extra few seconds shouldn\'t hurt too much - especially when compared to giving up the run.

Also, it is more difficult to cut back or bounce outside if the defender is closing to the line rather than closing to the backfield.

[Edited on 29/10/2004 by JKool]

JKool 10-29-2004 02:24 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
BnB,

A fine point. I hadn\'t considered that. Indeed, why not Smith, Rodgers, and Watson on the field. I think Watson might be improved at MLB by substantial protection at the line by a run blitz or the extra strength that Smith would add.

Of course, we\'d have to get Howard back next year if we were to go with this.

Saint.tastic 10-29-2004 07:57 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Maybe if they have the D-line hold there position and the line and try to contain the RB and stead of an all out rush from our line that might cut down on some of the yards. It\'s easier to stand your ground then rush the QB then it is to rush the QB and try to chase the RB from behind.

Just my opinon

rich006 10-29-2004 08:15 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Two points:

1. We have the same problem on the D-line that we have on the O-line: not enough nasty, aggressive, smash-mouth attitude. That comes from on-field leadership IMHO--Rickey Jackson anyone?

2. How about scoring some points in the first quarter? If we are always behind, the other team is always going to be running the ball. I\'m not saying it\'s the offense\'s fault we can\'t stop the run, but playing with a lead occasionally would definitely help.

St.Shrume 10-29-2004 09:01 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
I am not a football guru, and most of what I learned about football is from watching the Saints and playing Madden for about 10 years.

BUT what I see is a defense that either doesn\'t or can\'t follow the playcalling duties.

If the playcalling is complicated, they are not intelligent enough to grasp it.

Or maybe they just don\'t trust in the play call (or the playcaller) to do what they are told.

Sure, it probably is a bit of both, but this has to be addressed. You can draw up the perfect run stopping D, but if the guys aren\'t going to play it out as drawn it will probably not work.

If the guys are not intelligent enough to get it, simplify it down enough for them. If they are not going to do as told, sit their asses on the bench.

In battle, as much as you may not like what your superior says, you HAVE to follow thru...at least during the battle (or play). After the play, on the sideline is when you show your dissent. If they hate or mistrust Venturi\'s calls, this is not the way to show it.

BiggPoppaFro3 10-29-2004 09:19 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
First we keep our assignments. Don\'t take our eyes of the man we Must cover.

Then, we make sure to fill gaps and clog holes when they come up. An inch of daylight is too much IMO.

Next, we execute our offensive game plan like texas does criminals: early and often,


Finally, we find LT. Lock him in his house and not let him come out until Mon. morning.


Seriously, I think we can take them if we just keep it simple on D and potent on O. They are good, but they aren\'t the Patriots.

Kristomac 10-29-2004 10:21 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
I believe a large part of our defensive problems are primarily with the ends.
Darren Howard hasn\'t played well, either because of anjury, and/or he didn\'t appreciate being being the designated franchise player. I think our defense would be farther along if Will Smith had been playing all this time.
Charles Grant is a sack machine, but the number of long runs that have gone past him while he\'s flailing to get the the QB, gives me the dry heaves. He seems more interested in his personal stats than working with the team to stop the run. We got rid of L\'Roi Glover for the exact same reasons.

SaintFanInATLHELL 10-29-2004 11:06 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
I\'m going to do some snippage...


Quote:

However, it is my view that we turn our D-line loose too often. Controlled blitzes is generally the answer to this problem - which I thought was the question. Furthermore, it is easier to adjust a run blitz to a pass blitz than the converse - since you commit at the beginning of the play. With our improved coverage (i.e. Mike Mc and F. Brown), the extra few seconds shouldn\'t hurt too much - especially when compared to giving up the run.
It\'s been my observation that the D-line has generally been giving the opposing QB all day long anyway. Collins had 350 yards passing and no sacks. The two times he was pressured at all resulted in an Oakland penalty and one of the INTs.

Quote:

Also, it is more difficult to cut back or bounce outside if the defender is closing to the line rather than closing to the backfield.
OK. So how do we handle the obvious misdirection of running the ball on obvious passing downs? Do we then continue not to blitz the QB and play run blitz instead?

SFIAH


SaintFanInATLHELL 10-29-2004 11:29 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

Two points:

1. We have the same problem on the D-line that we have on the O-line: not enough nasty, aggressive, smash-mouth attitude. That comes from on-field leadership IMHO--Rickey Jackson anyone?
But isn\'t this counter to what JKool has been referring to? That the D-Line gets in trouble because they are overly agressive in trying to get to the QB, and therefore either run themselves out of the play, or allow for a cutback.

In the run game overpursuit and overagression can be just as flawed as being passive.
Quote:

2. How about scoring some points in the first quarter? If we are always behind, the other team is always going to be running the ball. I\'m not saying it\'s the offense\'s fault we can\'t stop the run, but playing with a lead occasionally would definitely help.
It would. However we are playing teams in KC, Denver, SD, and Atlanta too, that are
going to run the ball regardless. They are all top 10 in the NFL in rushing.

What I want to see from the offense is a more potent rushing attack. It\'s still my belief that McCarthy is going to have to mix it up better and go counter to his predictable tendencies. More play action. More draws. Mixing Karney in both the pass and the rush. More screens. More controlled rollouts for Brooks. Frankly I\'d only like to see Deuce run the ball from the power or offset I about 40 percent of the time, and only 20 percent of the time on 1st down.

Now I still want the run game to batter the defense. But use a bit more finesse instead of the simplistic line it up and run at them style the offense has exhibited of late.

But the defense has to take on the mission of stopping the run for the next 4-5 games. I believe that our secondary can make the required plays. They\'ll give up yards, but sometime in a drive they\'ll make the required stop. Note that Oakland\'s only two passing TDs happened when the DB fell down. Otherwise they did a fair job of it.

SFIAH

turbo_dog 10-29-2004 04:48 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
1. Better linebackers

2. New defensive coordinator

I\'ve felt that our tackles have been good or at least good enough the past few years, despite what others say. They seemed to be the scapegoat every time the defense suspect. The linebacking corps has been bad since Haslett took over the team. I don\'t know if its because he doesn\'t want to admit that he picked linebackers who couldn\'t play or if he really believes that Sedrick Hodge is a probowler, but that has always been played down by Haslett. Athletic, strong, intelligent linebackers are, in my opinion, the key to a good run defense.

BIGEASY504 10-29-2004 05:22 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Our LB are always out of postion so that\'s the scheme plus football smarts on behalf of the LB the middle LB the most.

JKool 10-29-2004 06:38 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

It\'s been my observation that the D-line has generally been giving the opposing QB all day long anyway. Collins had 350 yards passing and no sacks. The two times he was pressured at all resulted in an Oakland penalty and one of the INTs.
This will be helped by even delayed blitzes. Recall that in principle I\'m not against blitzing more often. What I\'m opposed to is simply blitzing for the sake of blitzing. Our DL needs to focus more on gap control - and this is a good idea if what you point out is true - since they are not getting into the backfield anyway, it won\'t be any loss to hold them back.

Quote:

OK. So how do we handle the obvious misdirection of running the ball on obvious passing downs? Do we then continue not to blitz the QB and play run blitz instead?
There are two parts to the solution to this as well. First, we have to anticipate (game plan) the play better - otherwise NO defensive scheme will help. Second, the basic defense I suggested would allow for more protection against this - with two linebackers freed to read and react.

Of course, it should be noted that EVERY defense has a weekness. The scheme I suggested has two obvious ones: (1) one less backer in coverage (though, given their coverage skills, I\'m not sure that hurts too much), and (2) runs that jump outside on the side away from the run blitz will be quite effective.

In response to the other claim made, that our guys aren\'t being aggressive enough, I think that can be read two ways. What I meant was they get too deep in the backfield, that has nothing to do with whether or not they play with heart, fire, and strength (which I think what Rich006 was referring to). I think one could agree that it is bad to do the former (which I see them doing frequently) and good to do the later (which I don\'t think I\'m in much of a position to say).

spkb25 10-29-2004 10:43 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
getting rid of venturi would be a good start

JKool 10-30-2004 01:00 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
Quote:

I think the key is to make teams go deep. If they get it, they get it, but up in the box, there gonna have FIGHT for every yard. Give them the short passes and make\'em pay.
How do you propose we do this? It sounds ok in principle (though, personally, I\'m never in favor of giving up big plays - that is demoralizing to both the offense and the defense). However I can\'t think of a scheme off the top of my head which involves allowing the deep pass and the short pass. The cover two is prone to give up the deep play (unless your Safeties have mad wheels), but it is very good against middle runs and short passes. Cover three takes away the deep plays but gives up the short plays. I suppose we could play some sort of double curtain, with one guy deep and thee in the intermediate (12-20 yards) zones, but I don\'t know why you\'d do that?

If what you mean is crowd the line (which would leave the flats exposed) and play two deep, I could see that. Why is this better than a cover two with my run blitzes? Maybe you\'re just agreeing with me and I missed it?

I disagreed with Billy at the time, and I will continue to do so. A good pass rush is not as important as he thought. This is going to sound stupid, but a BALANCED defensive attack is what is important. Sure a good pass rush is important to protecting a poor defensive backfield, and a good defensive backfield will improve a pass rush. However, that is only one small part of what a defense does.

There is also intermediate coverages, tackling, and flow to the ball - this all happens close to the line but not at the line. This is the aspect of our defense where we are the weekest. This is our linebackers (primarily) responsibility. It was my thought that we should in our basic defense commit an extra guy to the LOS. We\'d play two deep and four short (or some variation). This would give up one flat or one hook zone AND allow an extra attacker (who could switch, relatively easily to a pass blitz).

spkb25 10-30-2004 05:21 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
OUR D HAS BEEN BAD SINCE THE YEAR AFTER WE MADE THE PLAYOFFS. IF WE DONT HAVE TALENT THEN THE COACHING STAFF SHOULD AHEV WENT OUT AND FOUND SOME BY NOW. AND IF ITS NOT A TALENT ISSUE THEN ITS A COACHING ISSUE. AND THATS MY GUESS. I THINK VENTURI FRIGAN STINKS. SIMPLE AS THAT

TheJudge 10-30-2004 06:25 PM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
shoot their star back and hope the backup spent the prior night boozed up with hookers

spkb25 10-31-2004 10:48 AM

Question of the bye week: How to stop the run?
 
i love that judge


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