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Mock Draft Simulator

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by TheOak Ignoring the fact that until something is signed you have nothing to trade. Since he has to sign something in order for you to have something to trade, the tag and it's dead money are neither ...

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Old 03-26-2014, 04:01 PM   #191
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
Ignoring the fact that until something is signed you have nothing to trade. Since he has to sign something in order for you to have something to trade, the tag and it's dead money are neither moot or ended.

I'm not sure you understand that dead money can not be traded or moved. It's not yo to Loomis, it's governed by the CBA. His hands are tied.

At the end of every deal or contract is the League. Each and every contract or trade has to be approved by the League office before it is final.

look right now we control his football future that is all. that is all the tag does at this point. he can sign it or we can pull it till the due date

his options in the open market are few and far in between. till he accepts the contract or appeals it we are all just sitting tight. if he appeals we are again sitting tight till the saints decide what they will do.

any ways if a team offers him the same money we are we keep him.

They offer more and picks off he goes if that is what the saints decide to do.

so we keep him or a team pays him more than we are willing to do and forks over the additional picks

If he appeals and wins odds are their will be even fewer teams out there that will go for the 10 mill and picks. so he ends up a saint and we cut players to get under the cap.

Or god for bids the saints decide to pull the tag and let him walk. we will have time to make our minds up if the tag is changed. just like jimmy has time to decide if he going to sign it

i do not see dead money as an issue with jimmy.

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Old 03-26-2014, 04:12 PM   #192
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by hagan714 View Post
look right now we control his football future that is all. that is all the tag does at this point. he can sign it or we can pull it till the due date

his options in the open market are few and far in between. till he accepts the contract or appeals it we are all just sitting tight. if he appeals we are again sitting tight till the saints decide what they will do.

any ways if a team offers him the same money we are we keep him.

They offer more and picks off he goes if that is what the saints decide to do.

so we keep him or a team pays him more than we are willing to do and forks over the additional picks

If he appeals and wins odds are their will be even fewer teams out there that will go for the 10 mill and picks. so he ends up a saint and we cut players to get under the cap.

Or god for bids the saints decide to pull the tag and let him walk. we will have time to make our minds up if the tag is changed. just like jimmy has time to decide if he going to sign it

i do not see dead money as an issue with jimmy.

You drinking? The dead money reply from me was in response to your original "trade scenario"... Now it seems you've left that out of your synopsis of options.

Until Jimmy signs something with us we have zero to trade. Once he signs something with us there will be dead money if he does somewhere else.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:24 PM   #193
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

On the Clock Premium: Fanspeak's NFL Mock Draft Simulator

Updated with compensatory picks (which are not tradeable):

No Trades, Straigt Shot...

Round 1 (27) Jordan Matthews, WR, Vanderbilt; Height: 6’ 3”; Weight 212 lbs.

Round 2 (58) Pierre Desir, CB, Lindenwood; Height: 6’ 1”; Weight: 195 lbs.

Round 3 (91) Max Bullough, ILB, Michigan St; Height: 6’ 3”; Weight 249 lbs.

Round 4 (122) Josh Mauro, DE, Stanford; Height: 6’ 6”; Weight: 280 lbs.

Round 5 (155) Jerrick McKinnon, RB, Georgia Southern; Height: 5’ 09”; Weight: 209 lbs.

Round 5 (157) Russell Bodine, OL, UNC; Height: 6’ 3”; Weight: 310 lbs.

Round 6 (186) Justin Britt, OT, Missouri; Height: 6’ 3”; Weight: 240 lbs.

Desir's value really is climbing and he's the big physical cornerback Ryan will need to jam receivers at the line so that front can get after the passer

McKinnon is a bit of a risk, but that speed and size is hard to shy away from during the draft

Britt will be a perfect candidate to develop behind Strief on the RT spot

Bodine can play both Center and Guard and had a strong showing in several of the combine events

If Matthews falls to us in the first, that's SPs guy

Bullough will have an immediate impact at MLB for us

Mauro's performance at Stanford Pro Day may have pushed him higher, but I'd like to see him taken with no higher than a 4th...

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Old 03-26-2014, 09:12 PM   #194
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
You drinking? The dead money reply from me was in response to your original "trade scenario"... Now it seems you've left that out of your synopsis of options.

Until Jimmy signs something with us we have zero to trade. Once he signs something with us there will be dead money if he does somewhere else.

in my silly trade with Houston

Houston calls and says they want Jimmy for the two first.
Saints say ok
whats the next step?
Houston calls and gets a long term contract worked out with Jimmy's agent
Houston, Saints and Jimmy's agent sit down and finalize the trade.
No tag offer sheet needs to signed.

The only thing the tag does now is limit Jimmy's movement it does not prevent him from being traded or search for a team that is willing to met his demands and the high price the saints have placed on him. if he gets the deal he wants and the saints get what they want and the trading partner is happy Jimmy is on the next plane out of town.

Besides why would Jimmy be allowed to collect money from two clubs? In your set up Jimmy cost the saints and the Texans cap hits and he gets to double dip? he get 8 million from us and the first year of his contract from Texans?
or the saints are paying the texans to take him?
or is this creative accounting were the team trading the player is penalized for tagging that player then trading them?

If we cut Jimmy after he signed i see the logic

This is not a trade were we are trying to get a better pick by agreeing to keep the guaranteed money on our cap. in other words sending a player and cash to get better picks ie the Browns. This is a trade were they take the whole hit.

In real life if he signs the TE tag why would we trade him? IMO he is worth more in the next couple years to us in order to get to the super bowl. he is the best thing for Drew right now to get that done.

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Last edited by hagan714; 03-26-2014 at 09:16 PM..
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:09 AM   #195
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by hagan714 View Post
in my silly trade with Houston

Houston calls and says they want Jimmy for the two first.
Saints say ok
whats the next step?
Houston calls and gets a long term contract worked out with Jimmy's agent
Houston, Saints and Jimmy's agent sit down and finalize the trade.
No tag offer sheet needs to signed.

The only thing the tag does now is limit Jimmy's movement it does not prevent him from being traded or search for a team that is willing to met his demands and the high price the saints have placed on him. if he gets the deal he wants and the saints get what they want and the trading partner is happy Jimmy is on the next plane out of town.

Besides why would Jimmy be allowed to collect money from two clubs? In your set up Jimmy cost the saints and the Texans cap hits and he gets to double dip? he get 8 million from us and the first year of his contract from Texans?
or the saints are paying the texans to take him?
or is this creative accounting were the team trading the player is penalized for tagging that player then trading them?

If we cut Jimmy after he signed i see the logic

This is not a trade were we are trying to get a better pick by agreeing to keep the guaranteed money on our cap. in other words sending a player and cash to get better picks ie the Browns. This is a trade were they take the whole hit.

In real life if he signs the TE tag why would we trade him? IMO he is worth more in the next couple years to us in order to get to the super bowl. he is the best thing for Drew right now to get that done.
In your scenario with Houston..... Jimmy is not being traded brother, Mickey Loomis and the Saints do not have Jimmy Graham to trade.

(Probably best if you read the rest in a James Earl Jones voice)
Take my hand young Jedi, walk with me as we take this journey together step by step. So I may show you the dark side.

Right now, at this very moment Jimmy Graham is not a Saint. He is a Free Agent.

Yes he is Franchise Tagged, but the pesky 3 letters that are a game changer are "Non"... In Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag.

The reason it is a game changer is because unlike an Exclusive Franchise Tag which you are correct in saying is normally used to buy time to work out a long term contract because it prevents 31 other teams from getting into the mix, the Nonexclusive Tag allows Jimmy Graham to negotiate a contract with other teams. Note: I said Jimmy graham/his agent to negotiate... Not Mickey Loomis. Loomis has zero say in Grahams negotiations with other teams.

Step 1. Houston would not be contacting Mickey Loomis in regards to Jimmy Graham, they would contact Jimmy Grahams agent and Graham, his agent and Houston would sit down and negotiate Grahams contract (Mickey Loomis/New Orleans Saints are no where in that negotiation).

Step 2. Graham/His Agent and Houston come to an agreement.

Step 3. Grahams Agent sends that deal to the League office, or, the agent contacts Loomis him self.. Not sure about that part.

Step 4. Loomis is presented with the agreement/contract that Houston and Graham have settled with.

Step 6. Loomis now has the option to match that contract or let Jimmy go to Houston.

Step 7. If Loomis decided not to match.. The League takes two original first round draft spots from Houston and awards them to the New Orleans Saints. IF the deal is done before this years draft it is a first round draft pick in 2014 and a first round draft pick in 2015, if after this years draft they will come from 2015 and 2016.

See brother, there is no trade.. The Saints have nothing to trade until Jimmy Graham either signs his Franchise Tag contract or signs a long term contract. Once he signs one of those then the Saints have something to trade but that trade will cause Dead Cap Space.

The alternative is Jimmy doesn't sign his Franchise Tag, and doesn't get or accept an offer from any other team... and subsequently doesn't play football in the NFL in 2014 until one of those things happens.

As far as for players collecting money from two clubs (Double Dipping), it can happen. The League failed to close that loop hole in the 2011 CBA.
NFL missed chance to make offset language moot two years ago | ProFootballTalk

If you sign a 1 year contract with the Saints for $1m guaranteed, and they cut you they must pay you that money. If you then sign with the Falcons for a 1 year contract for 1m dollars they pay you that. You earn $2m this year from two teams. A players contract is with that team and it is legally binding with that team. If a player signs two contracts with 2 teams in one season and the first contract has guaranteed money he is paid by both teams for their individual contracts.

So it is not creative accounting, it is a player getting paid by two teams for those individual contracts and each team has to take a cap hit for the respective contracts in the same season.

If you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

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Old 03-27-2014, 09:11 AM   #196
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by lee909 View Post
Your Picks:
Round 2 Pick 11 (NYG): Ryan Shazier, OLB, Ohio State
Round 2 Pick 26: Troy Niklas, TE, Notre Dame
Round 3 Pick 3 (OAK): Jarvis Landry, WR, LSU
Round 3 Pick 11 (STL): Stanley Jean-Baptiste, CB, Nebraska
Round 3 Pick 27: Cyril Richardson, OG, Baylor
Round 4 Pick 10 (STL): Travis Swanson, C, Arkansas
Round 4 Pick 26: Ryan Grant, WR, Tulane
Round 5 Pick 27: James Hurst, OT, North Carolina
Round 6 Pick 26: Aaron Colvin, CB, Oklahoma
Round 6 Pick 28 (CAR): Kevin Norwood, WR, Alabama
Round 7 Pick 4 (OAK): Howard Jones, OLB, Shepherd
Lee, Shazier is barely a 230lb linebacker, you really believe he's a first rounder?!?

Maybe it's my bias, cynicism against Ohio St players and their overall history of flubbing in the NFL, but I see BUST...
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:52 AM   #197
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Round 2 pick 11 not a first rounder.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:44 PM   #198
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by lee909 View Post
Round 2 pick 11 not a first rounder.

Right.

Allow me to rephrase question, in context...

Because of his size, I feel he's limited to OLB in a 43 package...

Many mocks have him as a first rounder, do you really think he's a first rounder?!?
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:20 PM   #199
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

I wouldnt take him in the first as there are bigger and better players there but in the middle of round two he would be a good pick imo.

You would hope to add another 10-15lbs onto him if you could over the next year.He would not have to start each week with Butler there and hopefully Rufus Johnson can step up this year.There is also the chance he could potentially shift inside

Ohio State's Ryan Shazier leads top undersized LB prospects - NFL.com
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:45 PM   #200
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Re: Mock Draft Simulator

Originally Posted by lee909 View Post
I wouldnt take him in the first as there are bigger and better players there but in the middle of round two he would be a good pick imo.

You would hope to add another 10-15lbs onto him if you could over the next year.He would not have to start each week with Butler there and hopefully Rufus Johnson can step up this year.There is also the chance he could potentially shift inside

Ohio State's Ryan Shazier leads top undersized LB prospects - NFL.com
Well, I definitely wouldn't put him inside at his size; maybe he could play the third safety in Ryan's 3-4-4 packages...

Also be concerned if he'd be that fast with the extra lbs - he measures 6' 1" at 236 lbs...

If Mayock's opinion means anything to you, Mayock argues he'd be a outstanding prospect in a 43 front, which is how I see him...
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