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How to beat the Saints offense

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Jeff Duncan nails it with this snippet. The book on the Saints is clear and easy to follow. Defenses stack the line of scrimmage to stop McAllister and play deep in the secondary to prevent big plays. In the process, ...

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Old 11-04-2004, 08:39 AM   #1
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How to beat the Saints offense

Jeff Duncan nails it with this snippet.

The book on the Saints is clear and easy to follow.

Defenses stack the line of scrimmage to stop McAllister and play deep in the secondary to prevent big plays. In the process, they force the Saints' inconsistent passing game to execute long drives. More often than not, they fail. A dropped pass. A blown route assignment. An off-target throw. A protection breakdown. Invariably, something goes wrong.

Williams, Stallworth and Joe Horn are the leading violators.

Horn annually ranks among the team leaders in mental errors. Team officials are willing to put up with such mistakes from a player as competitive and productive as Horn, but Williams and Stallworth have not attained that status. As a result, they've seen their opportunities squeezed in recent weeks.
That explains why we don't throw deep at all. Opponents are playing over the top preventing this. They are letting the Saints beat themselves. A perfect plan against a dumb undisciplined team.

There are several ways to attack this scheme. Tell me why we don't.

1. The TE over the middle just behind the LB's. Boo? Where the heck are you? Conwell? This is your specialty. Its hard to see on TV but I'd imagine we either aren't attacking the middle with the TE's (McCarthy) or they aren't getting open (Boo and Conwell) or the QB isn't seeing them (Brooks). Until we can attack the middle the "Deuce Defense" will continue to work.

2. The RB or FB releasing in pass patterns. Again, is it McCarthy? Deuce is an excellent receiver out of the backfield. How many passes are thrown his way? Karney is a solid receiver for a FB. He should see 4 or 5 per game. Think Fred Beasley when the 49 offense was working.

3. WR underneath routes. The problem here I think is personnel. The closest thing we have to a possession guy is Horn and he drops twice as many as most possession type WR's. Remember Willie Jackson a few years back? Slow as a democrat but caught just about everything within his grasp. We could use a guy who can go over the middle. Pathons is OK but he's a bit small to do it regulary.
We have too many WR's with questionable hands.

The Devery pick is starting to bother me now. How many of you wish we had stayed put and drafted Donterrious Thomas instead of nabbing Devery?

BOTTOM LINE: I think the biggest problem so far with the OFFENSE has been the TE play. They are the main reason Deuce can't get loose.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:58 AM   #2
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How to beat the Saints offense

Anyone can stop the offense. Stack the line against Deuce, and then blitz Brooks in obvious passing downs. McCarthy gets read more than a Holiday Inn Bible.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:36 AM   #3
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How to beat the Saints offense

Stacking the line is a great way to stop the Saints. Without the running game we cannot use the play action pass effectively. Without the play action the safeties are free to roam which is why we are not getting the ball downfield
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:36 PM   #4
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How to beat the Saints offense

If Talman Gardner learned (or was taught by a good coach) how to drop less passes, he would be a pretty good possession guy with his size.

This kinda got me thinking...

With all of our receivers dropping balls, including tight ends for the last three years, do you think Brooks throws a \"catchable ball\"? I mean, it seems as though I once read an article about different QBs in the league and how some have strong arms or weak arms, but receivers rated different QBs on \"catchability\" of their throws.

Anybody know about this?
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Old 11-04-2004, 05:34 PM   #5
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How to beat the Saints offense

First, welcome back Danno.

Second, now, normally, I don\'t get all up on one position or another, but it is the WR\'s job to catch the ball. When I used to play, the WR coaches were constantly screaming the two following things: 1. if you can get one hand on the ball, you can get two hands on the ball, and 2. if you can get two hands on the ball, you can freakin\' catch the ball.

While, I do think that the QB is responsible for delivery, I think that the WRs are responsible for the catch. Now, I grant that different QBs throw with different styles, force, positioning, etc. HOWEVER, if it hits your hands, catch the ball! I said it before, and I\'ll say it again - Elway and Favre\'s WRs learned to catch the ball, so can ours.

Third, I do think that sending the backs on more pass patterns is a great idea. This is one of the reasons that Karney is such a great fit for the offense we SHOULD have. Get it out to him, get it to Duece - get it to them on their way out of the box, go over the middle on play action, I don\'t freakin\' care. Don\'t just sit the backs in there to run, run, and run again.

The main, and I think most will agree, problem isn\'t blocking, it isn\'t our running scheme, it isn\'t our personnel; the main problem is our shiznity play calling! We\'re so one dimensional that teams don\'t even worry about these options that Danno has suggested.

Sorry for the rant. I just got a little worked up today. Bah.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:48 PM   #6
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How to beat the Saints offense

The way to stop the Saints offense in a game is to let them on the field. They\'ll find a way to blow it. This is a TEAM Thing, not one individual player, because there is no leadership from the Front Office to Coaching, to Players. They are like a herd of sheep, wandering from thing to thing, no cohesion, no plan, no teamwork.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:40 PM   #7
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How to beat the Saints offense

One would think that it couldn\'t be hard to overcome these simple adjustments that D-Coordinators make in order to shut down our O. What\'s more frustrating is the fact that teams have been doing this for almost a year now, and the offense has STILL stuck with the same gameplan. No changes at all.

When your star running back complains about your experimental 2 TE set and begs for a FB in front of him, you\'re supposed to listen. McCarthy was stupid for thinking Boo Williams was any good. He had a fluke year or two and all of a sudden McCarthy wants to put him all of the time.

Seems to me that the coaches don\'t respect the players\' opinions or complaints, which would explain why they\'re constantly moved out of position or why the gameplan hasn\'t changed in years.

When it comes to discussing Saints losses, Jack Daniels can be a great listener.
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:42 AM   #8
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How to beat the Saints offense

Good to see you around, Danno. Nice post.

If you\'re reading a bible at a Holiday Inn, you gotta ask yourself the question, \"What turn brought me to this point in my life?\"

While, I do think that the QB is responsible for delivery, I think that the WRs are responsible for the catch.
Agreed. but you don\'t have to hum the ball on every pass. Help your receivers help you.
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Old 11-05-2004, 07:58 AM   #9
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How to beat the Saints offense

Great to see a good discussion going on. Good points, Danno.

I agree on all points (except the slow Democrats, please don\'t get me started ) But I do believe the O-Line is also a major reason our Offense has suffered.

In fact I would say #1 WR drops #2 O-Line and then #3 TE\'s

Our O-line is getting pushed so far back that Deuce barely has a chance to get going before he has to break a tackle. AB has very few seconds to scan the field.

Sure the TE\'s play into this as they are blockers on a lot of plays, and should be the \'sure\', \'gimme\' outlet over the middle. But still the O-line I think is a bigger problem.

One repeating trend I am beginning to see in the Haslett era (and I think they have proved to me that it is wrong) is going after fast talented players, no matter what other baggage they have.

I mean think about it, the only player I would say is an \'effort\' guy is Brain Young. He is not physically big but plays hard. Almost everybody else on the team is gifted with speed and raw talent, but most don\'t have the work drive, the hunger, the football smarts to be great players.

We are lucky to have Deuce, Grant, Horn, Karney, Bentley and (don\'t throw things at me ) AB. They have talent BUT have shown that they can improve and want to win.

I feel as an organization, the Saints do not truly understand the concept of team chemistry, player\'s work ethics nor football smarts . Maybe they\'re over-rated. But when they are completely missing, it hurts a team.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:15 AM   #10
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How to beat the Saints offense

I feel as an organization, the Saints do not truly understand the concept of team chemistry, player\'s work ethics nor football smarts . Maybe they\'re over-rated. But when they are completely missing, it hurts a team.
Great post Shrume.

I think this says it all.

While I think Sammy Knight was too slow (when teamed with Bellamy at FS) he did have what a lot of our current staff doesn\'t.
savvy, heart, desire, drive, emotion, etc...
If every player had Sammy\'s drive, our defense would be awesome.

I wonder how Sammy Knight and Tebucky Jones would have done teamed together. I think Mel Mitchel will be a solid player eventually, but I imagine another year of development behind Sammy Knight sure may have helped.
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