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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Whodi and FOB, I agree that the \"a win is a win\" line is not sufficiently nuanced. Certainly, there are good and bad wins. However, wins are good and loses are bad - I\'m not one for this losing will ...

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Old 11-15-2004, 04:40 PM   #11
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

Whodi and FOB,

I agree that the \"a win is a win\" line is not sufficiently nuanced. Certainly, there are good and bad wins. However, wins are good and loses are bad - I\'m not one for this losing will make us better stuff. Having a losing attitude will cause players to want to jump ship, make it harder to sign free agents, and all in all get a team a bad rep. These are things that I don\'t want for our boys. I don\'t understand why people are willing to suffer these consequences and loss after loss just to get a higher draft pick. I think we\'re getting a new coach either way, so I don\'t put a lot of stock in that argument.

As for the crazy girlfriend analogy, are you saying that pesimists are suited for dating crazy girls? I think the pesimist who continues to date the crazy girl secretly thinks that she won\'t be crazy the next time (otherwise, why would he stick with her).

I like the thin ice analogy, but I don\'t think it captures the difference between optimists and pessimists. Half empty or half full - the difference between the two positions is NOT factual, it is merely in how one veiws the situation. Thus, I argue that there is no interesting distinction between the two positions, except in how they describe THE SAME FACTS.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 11-15-2004, 04:50 PM   #12
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

seems like someone was reading pro weekly of 2003
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Old 11-15-2004, 04:53 PM   #13
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

OK I\'ve had enough.
1. Yea, we beat KC when no one thought we could.
2. Yea, we still look bad.

Now, can we talk about what/who looked good Sunday instead of harping on every negative everyone already knows about?

Nobody is claiming we\'re superbowl bound so we don\'t need \"reality checks\" from anyone.

1. The O-line played better
2. WR\'s caught the ball
3. When they stacked the line we passed
4. When the played base, we ran
5. Deuce looks almost 100%
6. When the D needed a stop, they got one.
7. Karney looks awesome
8. McKenzie plays with a passion I haven\'t seen here in years.
9. The whole team didn\'t quit like I predicted they would.
10. Haz was getting in some faces, and they responded.
11. Haz/Venturi will still be fired regardless.

See? Eleven positives! No sunshine blowing!
And no brilliant \"yea you guys are clueless, we still suck\" replies.

ITS OK TO ENJOY A WIN!!!

'Tolerance And Apathy Are The Last Virtues Of A Dying Society'
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:27 PM   #14
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????


As for positives, I gotta admit I was pleasantly surprised at the crowd Sunday. Not that the game was a sellout (it clearly wasn\'t), and not that I didn\'t see some paper sacks (I did). But after the initial system-shock of Dante Hall\'s opening kick return, and when Deuce started moving the ball, the fans started to warm back up. By the end of the game, all bags had disappeared and I\'m pretty sure the crowd noise was getting to Green.

It\'s a win ... I\'m happy ...
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:53 PM   #15
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

. The O-line played better
Not from what I heard Danno. As I understand it Brooks was under pressure EVERY pass.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:59 PM   #16
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

JKool,

I think you are looking too deep into the analogy. It is very surface. Both are dating a crazy chic and both are looking at it differently. Not that a pessimist is better suited to date a crazy chic. The reason he won\'t leave her is the same reason noone here will ever stop being a Saints fan, cause we love them. All of us. A pessimist can love the crazy chic but understand she is crazy. He stays cause he loves her, not cause he is expecting anything different. Hello Saints. We still root for them cause we love them, and we all KNOW we aren\'t getting anything different than what we have gotten the last 3 years.

And the whole point of optimist/pessimist was things are being seen two different ways. It fits exactly. There is the optimistic a win is a win what about the playoffs bunch and there is the Hello haven\'t we seen this movie already crowd. The optimists are just expecting a different outcome of the same movie they have watched 3 years straight. Trust me, Neo still takes the red pill and gets out of the Matrix. It\'s not gonna change until the people making the movie change or it is remade, which I am hoping the Saints get remade.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:53 PM   #17
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

Whodi,

I like your points, but it always sounds like this to me: optimists are stupid and pessimists aren\'t. Recall the glass example - the glass is half full/empty. Neither person is smarter than the other here (they just talk about it differently), and that is a paradigm case of the distinction.

Here is another way to take the girl friend example. The pessimist is expecting it, but still loves her - so he is less shocked, but he is just expecting the crazy and unhappy that goes with sticking with her. The optimist is also expecting it, but still loves her - however, he continues to think there is something cute or sweet or impossibly endearing about the crazy - now he is better equiped to deal with it.

Again, I just don\'t see that this pessimism/optimism thing is all that important to one\'s enjoyment of football (or even as important to one\'s discussion of football). It is helpful to remember people communicate differently about the facts, certainly, but one just isn\'t better than the other. I think one could have either stance and enjoy our team just as much - just in different ways, as it should be.

The optimists are NOT expecting a (radically) different outcome, they just take the day by day differently.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:04 PM   #18
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Okay Kool. I won\'t disagree with you. Possibly it shouldn\'t be looked at as optimist/pessimist, but that is the example that was used. I am not sayign anyone is stupid for how they look at anything, and never would, unless it was true. I applaud you guys who can keep getting kicked in the gut, and smile when you are occasionally handed a treat. My gut, pudgy as it is, can\'t take any more. As I said, I would love it if we won out and stormed into the playoffs, but we all know that\'s not gonna happen. All of us. What is gonna be the stance if we end up 8-8 and Haslett is back next year? And we pick 17th, 18th, orr 19th in the draft and forced into the best player available line again cause all the impact guys are gone again. Look at Carolina. Not only will they get a top 5 draft pick a year after going to the Superbowl, their key players will be healthy next year. I hate this scenario more than anything cause we are playing ourselves out of an impact player to hope to compete without drastic changes.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:41 PM   #19
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

Whodi,

As usual, you and I more or less agree when it comes down to it.

I don\'t think Haz will be back either way (especially if we miss the playoffs, which I suspect we will).

I think the team needs to be much more agressive druing FA - the draft will once again give us a bunch of projects as opposed to an impact player, but high draft picks have as much risk as payoff (see Sully as a prime example).

I think that the best way to build our team is FA, given that we currently have youth (and, yes, some of it is talented). We need at least one proven LB and and either a proven CB or DT (we can draft for the other).

Thus, I think our position in the draft is much less important than (1) a coaching change, (2) an aggressive FA strategy, and (3) team morale and pride.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:41 PM   #20
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Why do we do this to ourselves??????

PS - Thanks for the intelligent discussion. I have been enjoying it very much.
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