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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; J - I agree, there are other problems. No doubt. The defense is absolutely terrible and the MAJOR concern. This teams has more holes than... well, you get the point. However, I have a problem with the argument that b/c ...

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Old 11-22-2004, 10:12 PM   #21
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Brooks

J - I agree, there are other problems. No doubt. The defense is absolutely terrible and the MAJOR concern. This teams has more holes than... well, you get the point.

However, I have a problem with the argument that b/c AB isn\'t the biggest problem, he therefore isn\'t a problem even worth discussing. Gang violence, armed robbery, rape - those are big problems that a police force should address. The guy cooking and selling a million dollars a year worth of crank out of his kitchen shouldn\'t get a free pass though b/c homicide is worse than selling drugs.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 11-22-2004, 10:47 PM   #22
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Brooks

I see JKool\'s point.

I tend to agree with WhoDat a little more.

It\'s like saying our defense is stabbing us 80 times and we\'re quickly bleeding to death. Very true and an obvious, critical need.

Brooks is more like a massive brain aneurysm. You don\'t know exactly when it\'s going to rupture, but you can be sure we\'ll be just as dead.
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Old 11-23-2004, 01:37 AM   #23
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Brooks

BMG and Who,

Of course Brooks is a problem. I didn\'t deny that. I was just having one of my little rants about the over the top amphibilous comments some people make here.

Living in Cheese Head country, I see plenty of \"The Legend, Brett Favre.\" This guy IS a good QB, a hall of fame QB, and every week I see him make bonehead throws that remind me ever so much of our boy, AB. Now, Favre throws passes with more touch and he\'s got more wins, but I don\'t see that \'game to game\' he\'s (these last couple years) any more consistent or even better than AB. Of course, Favre is a leader, blah blah blah. However, it is my belief, in straight up comparison of playing style with Farve these last few years, we CAN win with AB. Sure, he\'ll never be in the same class as Favre and he may never be a top 5 QB, but he\'s sure as heck no bottom 10 QB either.

Yeah, he hurt us this week, but he didn\'t the week before. The team is not good enough to support a middle of the pack QB, but that doesn\'t mean that we need to go out and waste time finding a QB when we really need a CB, an OT, a DT, and a bunch of LBs. Make the defense better and our offense will score the 17-24 points needed to win almost every game we play EVEN IF AB IS AT THE HELM.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 11-23-2004, 06:06 AM   #24
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Brooks

Im not saying we should not support AB, but if you were given an option to pick a new QB (lets say Brees)or stick with AB what would you pick? If you would pick to stick it out with Brooks then I must shut my mouth and stop trying to discuss my point.

Sure, he\'ll never be in the same class as Favre and he may never be a top 5 QB, but he\'s sure as heck no bottom 10 QB either.
no but how about 11? QB rating AB is 19th. Only ahead of Old Vinny Testaverde (Benched), Jake Delhomme (No RB and lost top WR to injury), Billy Volek (Back Up), Jeff Garcia, Josh McCown (Benched), Kyle Boeller (2nd Yr), Drew Bledsoe, Matt Hasselback, Kerry Colling(Back Up), Carson Palmer (2nd YR), Jay Fielder(Benched), Steve McNair (injured most of yaer), Mark Brunell (Benched) and AJ Feeley(Back Up). Thats a great pack to be leading... I tell you what Brooks sure looks like a superstar when you start talking about all the mistakes he has made compared to these guys...

To put it in perspective Ben Rothlisberger is 6th in the league in Passer Rating. Marc Bulger a 4th round draft pick we let go when we traded for Brooks 12th. Kurt Warner 14th. Tim Rattay in SAN FRANSISCO 17th. Yet you guys still claim Brooks is not part of the problem. Hmm ok...

Completion % he is 22nd... I know I know his WR drop way to many passes so lets let him slide on that too.. AB never makes bad throws... Its a good thing he pads his stats during garbage time or he wouldnt have numbers this good...

Before you go and blame the OL. AB has only been sacked 20 tymes. Culpepper 27 and he is 2nd in QB rating.
McNabb 21 4th in QB rating.
Trent Green 23 8th in QB rating.
Marc Bulger 31 12th in QB rating.
David Carr 27 13th in QB rating.
Kurt Warner 39 14th in QB rating.
Mike Vick 32 16th in QB rating.
Tim Rattay 25 17th in QB rating
Joey Harrington 24 and 18th in QB rating.

I know his stats (Passing Yards) look good, but the game is not played on paper. So no matter how few INTs he throws or how many less fumbles we have than so and so... Until he proves he can LEAD this team take control of a game and dominate like so many other QBs are doing (and he did his first year with us) then I will not be happy with him.

Favre makes a lot of boneheaded plays, but how often does he go over to the sideline and laugh about it? Alot of Favre\'s mistakes are when its late in the game and he is trying to do anything and everything in his power to make a play to help his team win. Brooks makes stupid plays that help us fall further behind and cost us games. Take away the INT in the second Qtr. Its 20-13. Donte catches that deep ball its tied up. or those last 2 or 3 drives when we moved the ball deep into their territory and didnt make it on 4th down... Lets say we arent down 3 scores and we could have kicked a FG or 2 and got it to one score... then those boneheaded plays look alot worse. San D game wasnt it the first Qtr when he threw it backwards 20 yards? There is a difference between doing sumthing silly when you are trying to make sumthing happen to win the game and when you do sumthing silly that costs you a game.
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:38 AM   #25
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Brooks

Syco - GREAT POST. Good use of the stats - that\'s really tough to argue with.

J - I know all about Favre and boneheaded mistakes, etc. The difference to me is Favre is THE team leader of a team that has overcome the odds time and again. They won te Super Bowl without a ton of talent, they are consistent winners, and just look at what has happened in the last two years. Twice they have rebounded from bad starts to be first in their division. Favre blows games attimes just like AB. But more often than not, he is inspirational, talented and successful, and helps his team overcome the odds.

Brooks creates the odds for the Saints. When the team needs a big play, he fumbles into the endzone at the 1 yard line or throws a backwards pass. He is about as far from a leader on the field as you can be, and his teams are categorized by failure and underachievement. THe Favre comparison just doesn\'t carr much weight for me.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:49 AM   #26
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Brooks

SycoSurfer, I pick to stick it out with AB until our defense can stop other High School teams at least. I do not ask you to shut your mouth, though, I want to hear more of your views.

Yes, many despise AB and think we have to get rid of him. And maybe they are right to an extent.

BUT...he is not the reason we are 4-6. I feel I can say that with all confidence. HE did not cost us any games this year. He may have not won many for us by himself, but he sure as hell wasn\'t the reason we lost the games we did.

WAIT! Before you send scathing responses, please look at the yards and points our defense gave up this year.

It is very hard for a QB to look great and have a great day when 3 or 4 minutes into the game his team is friggin\' down by 14.

I like the analogy of AB as an anyeurism, BrooksMustGo. And our defense is like getting stabbed 80 times. Well, what do you do first when you get the Sainst to the hospital (off season)? Try and work on the anyeurism first? Or the stabs that will completeley kill the Saints in a few minutes??

BrooksMustGo, what do YOU do in the off season if you\'re hired as coach. Fire AB first? Give up draft picks to get Brees? Will Brees be able to carry our crappy team on his shoulders?? Brooks Must Go. Fine, who takes his place? Who other than Manning or Culpepper can carry this crappy defense to close to 8-8?

Let\'s get our defense straight first. Get 2 or 3 LB\'s (one or 2 through free agency), get a DT that is not happy on the bench, trade Howard and get a CB or LB...

Then maybe get a RT to replace Riley soon. Get a LT that has 1 year to get ready to replace Gandy.

Then get a free safety that will be able to fill in for Bellamy and T.Jones when they get released or retire in the next year or 2.

Then find the replacement for Joe Horn (since no one on our roster seems to be able).

THEN deal with the AB situation. Sure, we can start scouting from now and maybe take a QB in the late rounds (6th or 7th) and see what happens. Sure, we can start seeing his worth in the market, etc. BUT he will win 8-10 games for us if our defense doesn\'t give up 10 miles a game, for the mean time.

I guess what I am trying to say is I don\'t completely disagree with you Brooks must go crew. But we have WAY more crucial problems that HAVE to be fixed yesterday.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:01 AM   #27
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Brooks

Another argument I don\'t understand - if the defene plays better, the Saints win. OK, I agree, but the those fumbles and backwards passes, and underhanded INTs DO cost us games.

The defense cost us the Broncos game? If I had told you that the Saints D would hold the Broncos to 20 would that have made you happy? B/c they did. 7 on the kickoff, 7 on AB\'s INT. That makes it 20-13 and a game. The defense is terrible and needs to be fixed. No argument there - but saying that doesn\'t magically make AB goo or his play acceptible.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:19 AM   #28
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Brooks

WhoDat, I guess it comes down to different philosophies. You (like may others on this board) seem to feel having THE QB, that one guy, will make the difference in this team. Or atleast enough to where everthing else fits into place.

Well, you have Brett Favre who helps support this philosphy. Here is a guy who can make his team better than they really are. I agree.

The other philosphy (I\'m sure there are many more), which I espouse, is that you shouldn\'t rely on one player to solve a team\'s problems. Look at Vick. If he goes down, Dirty Birds won\'t be as good as they are now.

You talk about the Defense only gave up 20 points. Yeah, but you seem to neglect that 14 of them came before most fans were settled in for the game. That is a big difference. That changes everything for the offense (strategy, confidence, calmness). I do not think you can wirte that off too easily.

Ok, WhoDat, what do YOU do in the off-season. And I do not ask this sarcastically. I really would want to know. I have learned a lot about the game from you guys (much thanks, by the way to all poster). So tell me what do YOU do?

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Old 11-23-2004, 10:35 AM   #29
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You (like may others on this board) seem to feel having THE QB, that one guy, will make the difference in this team. Or atleast enough to where everthing else fits into place.
No, that\'s not my philosophy at all. If you read the posts above, I think you\'ll see that I\'m not saying that, nor is anyone else.

What we\'re saying is that Brooks is a problem and I, for one, would like to see something done about it. That\'s not to say he is THE problem, the BIGGEST problem, or the ONLY problem. I\'m not suggesting that Favre makes this team a contender... then again it wouldn\'t hurt.

The argument I\'m making is this: When someone like me says, \"AB is a problem\" a whole lot of people come out of the woodwork and say, \"Are you crazy? The defense is terrible. Brooks isn\'t the problem.\" I never said AB is THE problem, but the fact that there are other problems doesn\'t mean he isn\'t one also.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:38 AM   #30
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Brooks

Syco, no one suggested you should shut up. In fact, it was you who was saying that anyone who didn\'t agree that Brooks was at least half the problem didn\'t know anything about football... AND no one said that Brooks isn\'t PART of the problem.

If Brees becomes available and has no real costs other than financial, then I say think about it. This is by no means a no brainer. We really need two LBs, a CB, a DT, and an OT before we can really run a game. At least some combination of these is necessary to winning games (500 yards of offense allowed per game... what QB can stop that?). A new QB is not necessary to win games. AB has proven he can win games at this level, our defense has not.

As for the stats you cite, I think the point about getting sacked is interesting (i.e. the Culpepper point). I\'ll need to think about that; thank you for pointing that out.

On this point though, I think you\'re in trouble:
I know his stats (Passing Yards) look good, but the game is not played on paper.
You need to make up your mind; do the stats matter or do they not matter? Which is it?

That said, I do think that you can use the stats in some cases an not others, but there needs to be an argument for it. Here is one: passing yards are less critical to evaluating the goodness of a QB than completion percentatage because completion percentage is a greater measure of play by play efficiency, which is more important than big play ability. I don\'t know if I think this, but I thought I\'d help you out on this one. If there are arguments like these for looking at one stat as more important than another, people should make them rather than just say some stats don\'t matter and some do (that sounds arbitrary). (Not a point directed at you Syco. This is just a pet peeve of mine.)

The laughing thing is irrelevant. I just don\'t get that one. I never have. It has been discussed at length here, and I am unconvinced that it makes any difference other than ticking off a few fans (many fans?)... whatever.

Also, 19th? Well, that\'s even better than I thought. He\'s two spots away from being in the top third of NFL STARTING QBs and we\'re screaming to get rid of him? Yikes. While I (conditionally) accept the Brees argument, I will no longer hear the \"draft a guy\" argument. What are the odds of drafting a guy who will be a 19th ranked passer in the NFL before the end of training camp next season? I\'m going to go with... pretty darned low. I\'m sure someone can do the math, but here is my armchair calculation: number of drafted QBs who are ranked above 19 in passer efficiency during that year divided by the number of QBs drafted that year equals small.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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