Champ Bailey #27

Jack Vegas · 05-22-2014, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

I don't think its a question of if he can play because he makes some great plays at times, he just follows those up with plays that make you think what the hell was he even doing?

E.g - made a fantastic play on the ball jumping the short route vs 49ers, runs it back 30 yards only to fumble it through the endzone and making me puke in the process

His first game as starter, which he came in halfway through. Then the Atlanta game, where he got picked on in the first half, then came back in the second half to shut them down. That's what Corey White's detractors have to fall back on. Nobody ever wants to mention all the games after that where the kid played lights out. Hell, if not for him making back-to-back brilliant plays in week 1, we probably lose that season opener to the Falcons.

Corner is just one of those positions where people only notice the bad things. If a guy gets picked on a couple times when he's young, that's his reputation forever. If you don't believe me, go look at Steelers' boards last year after Keenan Lewis signed with us. And we know how good he is.

Sarik · 05-23-2014, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

His first game as starter, which he came in halfway through. Then the Atlanta game, where he got picked on in the first half, then came back in the second half to shut them down. That's what Corey White's detractors have to fall back on. Nobody ever wants to mention all the games after that where the kid played lights out. Hell, if not for him making back-to-back brilliant plays in week 1, we probably lose that season opener to the Falcons.

Corner is just one of those positions where people only notice the bad things. If a guy gets picked on a couple times when he's young, that's his reputation forever. If you don't believe me, go look at Steelers' boards last year after Keenan Lewis signed with us. And we know how good he is.

Lol no...corey white didnt shut anyone down that game nor any game i can recall, even though he's had his better games. its not that he got "picked on" its who it was who picked on him...which was undrafted rookie darius johnson(5'9) who was eatin corey up. And Its not like darius is the fastest kid on the field, only ran a 4.6+ 40, just knew how to work corey. I remember that game vividly...corey was worked on those intermediate/short routes. And no corey didnt work wonders the 2nd half, they actually brought in Rod Sweeting to help in the 2nd half...only thing that helped corey was Keyunta Dawson forced a darius johnson fumble that corey so happened to recover after losing darius another time on a screen thrown outside. So no....and he wasnt exciting to watch in seattle on baldwin either. I do believe and hope corey can make that leap, who doesnt want our guys to be great. But gettin back p-rob and adding bailey & SJB should help tremendously. I think you're confusing ppls "hate" of white with their reluctancy to show optimism bc of the equally bad plays he's put up to go along with the good. By year 3 we should expect him to make the leap...we'll wait to see that. But i believe...im more pro p-rob tho. Even tho he made some bad plays he's made some outstanding plays on the ball and has better ball skills. If the organization was so set on corey white being their no. 2 guy they wouldnt have been so set on drafting SJB or adding champ. payton said himself that if sjb had been taken before their selection they would have tried to trade out of the 2nd round. That goes along way. Excited to see what this secondary can do this year...mainly the new additions.

Jack Vegas · 05-23-2014, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sarik

And no corey didnt work wonders the 2nd half, they actually brought in Rod Sweeting to help in the 2nd half...

No no no no no. Just no.

You are just flat-out incorrect here dude. I just watched that game to make sure my recollection was true.

Sweeting came in for a while at the end of the first half, but barely saw the field in the second. White was out there on his own in man coverage and did a good job. The only time he really lost his man was on a crossing pattern where he lost #13 in traffic but Lofton came up and made the play and the guy dropped the ball.

This is why I can't take Corey White's detractors seriously. None of them seem to pay any attention to the actual game.

Not trying to get personal here, I'm just saying it's hard for me to respect your opinion when you don't even know what really happened. I have watched all of these games at least 5 times over the last few weeks. I played safety in college and coached DB's as a grad assistant. I'm not exactly flying blind here.

The kid was a fine #2 corner after getting his feet under him. Don't be surprised if he keeps the job this year.

Jack Vegas · 05-23-2014, 12:01 PM

apologies if I sounded like a know-it-all.

TheOak · 05-23-2014, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

apologies if I sounded like a know-it-all.

You know, what you know... No apologies necessary.

Sarik · 05-23-2014, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

No no no no no. Just no.

You are just flat-out incorrect here dude. I just watched that game to make sure my recollection was true.

Sweeting came in for a while at the end of the first half, but barely saw the field in the second. White was out there on his own in man coverage and did a good job. The only time he really lost his man was on a crossing pattern where he lost #13 in traffic but Lofton came up and made the play and the guy dropped the ball.

This is why I can't take Corey White's detractors seriously. None of them seem to pay any attention to the actual game.

Not trying to get personal here, I'm just saying it's hard for me to respect your opinion when you don't even know what really happened. I have watched all of these games at least 5 times over the last few weeks. I played safety in college and coached DB's as a grad assistant. I'm not exactly flying blind here.

The kid was a fine #2 corner after getting his feet under him. Don't be surprised if he keeps the job this year.

No sir. Watch it again. Sweeting was brought in to help. Listen to the guys announcing...they even mention darius being an undrafted FA that didnt run well and talked bout rod. In the 4th quarter when the falcons had a chance to turn things around darius got him again on that wr screen. And if you watched it again i dont understand how you still got keyunta dawson confused with curtis lofton. Corey ended up chasing him from behind and fell on the fumble. But my whole argument was no one was shutdown..he gave up 6 catches to a rookie wr. Imo that is in no way "shutting anyone down"... And again im good with corey but not as a no.2 guy...YET. All i was saying was you were confusing the doubts from only "some" ppl as hate, and im not in that number. & the drafting of SJB & addition of champ should show that the organization feels the same way as most of the fan base. Not that he's trash or anything like that, but that he still needs some work and id hope we can all agree on that bud. Know what i mean.

Na man, this is family here bro. No ill intentions from anyone...at least id hope not lol.

Sarik · 05-23-2014, 04:29 PM

Honestly i believe corey can be a solid corner in this league...but he has some maturing to do as a player. My main issue with Corey, and its a big one, is that he consistently fails to turn his head and locate the ball. Relies too much on the receivers eyes and hands and by that time its too late. Chalk up the reception. Both plays Doug Baldwin had on him in the division round are prime examples of that. Ball is lobbed in the air by russ and corey fails to locate the ball. Otherwise the coverage was actually pretty good, im sure after observing you would agree. And cant ask him to cover the shifty guys with full trust just yet or more "big time" WR's...playoff game against the eagles can show that. Keenan goes down, so corey has to take on desean and the eagles licked their chops on that and turned the game around. Gave up two big 40 yrd plays...one being a reception then the other being PI, which was without a doubt...he just looked bad and lost out there. Not ready to be THE guy...but do i believe he can be that no.2 someday? Absolutely! I honestly feel Corey does have every tool to be a solid corner like his wingman keenan...just a matter of time before it happens. But at this point do i believe he's better than Patrick Robinson? No. Fairly even...but i MAY give pat the nod. He looked solid before he went down. Lets hope for good things this year from our group. And anything less than top 3 would leave me extremely disappointed. I expect corey and pat to make the jump and our pass D to be tops among the league.
But if that doesnt happen, it may be time to make some changes.

Jack Vegas · 05-23-2014, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sarik

No sir. Watch it again. Sweeting was brought in to help.

Not in the second half, which was the whole point. I never denied that White struggled in the first half. It was his first game as a starter, after all. I also never denied they brought Sweeting in. But Sweeting only played the late part of the first half. Watch the game again, during the second half White is one-on-one on the outside receiver. Lined up on the right side the vast majority of it. Seriously, I'm looking at it right now.

Originally Posted by Sarik

Listen to the guys announcing...they even mention darius being an undrafted FA that didnt run well and talked bout rod. In the 4th quarter when the falcons had a chance to turn things around darius got him again on that wr screen.

You said it yourself...screen. The very definition of screen play means that White was going to be wiped out by a blocker (in this particular case it was actually two blockers). That is not a case of Corey White getting beat. You can't possibly hold a screen play against a corner who gets two guys in his face off the snap. That was Malcolm Jenkins' responsiblity...not White. Predictably Jenkins was nowhere to be found, but that is another story.

Originally Posted by Sarik

And if you watched it again i dont understand how you still got keyunta dawson confused with curtis lofton.

I didn't confuse anybody with anybody. We are talking about two totally different plays. I didn't count the screen play because you cannot possibly blame that on a corner who is getting blocked out by a tight end and another WR. The play I counted was earlier in the 3rd Q, and one where White was actually responsible for the coverage and lost his man. That is something he would actually be accountable for, except Lofton made the play.

Originally Posted by Sarik

he gave up 6 catches to a rookie wr. Imo that is in no way "shutting anyone down"...

Again I was referring to his performance in the second half of the game, not the first. He obviously got lit up in the first. What makes him a good player is that he was able to come back in the second half and gave up absolutely nothing on his watch, in his first start ever.

In any case I was irritable this morning and I do have some know-it-all tendencies. It's all good, I shouldn't have called you out or anything. But I had just watched that game and your recollection didn't jibe with mine.

Jack Vegas · 05-23-2014, 06:29 PM

None of this BTW is me talking up White over Robinson. I may actually be Patrick Robinson's biggest fan on this board. In fact White's situation this offseason reminds me of the way a lot of people thought about Robinson last year.

Again corner is just one of those positions where people don't notice you unless you screw up, and it seems like no amount of great performance really changes it. I'm telling you half the people on Steelers' boards still think Keenan Lewis is a total bum because he got burned a lot there in his first couple years. Try telling them he's an elite corner right now and you'll get laughed out of the place.

Sarik · 05-24-2014, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

None of this BTW is me talking up White over Robinson. I may actually be Patrick Robinson's biggest fan on this board. In fact White's situation this offseason reminds me of the way a lot of people thought about Robinson last year.

Again corner is just one of those positions where people don't notice you unless you screw up, and it seems like no amount of great performance really changes it. I'm telling you half the people on Steelers' boards still think Keenan Lewis is a total bum because he got burned a lot there in his first couple years. Try telling them he's an elite corner right now and you'll get laughed out of the place.

Lol i give up, u win... All im sayin is corey is not fully ready for #2, Which most would agree. And being a starter for his first time should not be an excuse for taking on a back up darius johnson, he actually lucked out that he didnt need to take on julio, roddy or even harry. Its not so much ppl remember the screw ups, its just that the good does not really outweigh the bad at all.

Dizzle said it perfectly... He screwed up his lone INT of the year badly, but thats forgiven & a rare scenario. And ppl remember the screw ups bc they end up being crucial parts of the game or huge plays...off the top of my head: desean jackson Reception/PI, doug baldwin receptions, darius, Panthers game winning TD from hixon. Id still prefer an old jabari greer, P-Rob over corey, but with that said i believe he's a great no.3 and will be the no.2 guy we all want him to be.
SJB and a healthy P-rob do not help his chances though and i think saints see SJB as their guy to pair wit keenan. They clearly covet him. But corey should go out and win the job this offseason... Or at least he better if he's that good. It should be expected if he is in fact the future like you say and we believe he could be. But if he doesnt what then?

I think everyone knows scheme and spags had something to do with the piss poor performance 2 seasons ago. I never counted p-robs performance against him for that and he looked damn solid last year before goin down.

We can both and all only hope that both these guys break out. I do think corey white is one of the underrated young corners in the league, but still has some developing. Good chat man...this stuff is healthy.

Interesting stuff my man, where did u play college ball? Thats awesome.

05-22-2014, 01:16 PM	#11
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by dizzle88 I don't think its a question of if he can play because he makes some great plays at times, he just follows those up with plays that make you think what the hell was he even doing? E.g - made a fantastic play on the ball jumping the short route vs 49ers, runs it back 30 yards only to fumble it through the endzone and making me puke in the process His first game as starter, which he came in halfway through. Then the Atlanta game, where he got picked on in the first half, then came back in the second half to shut them down. That's what Corey White's detractors have to fall back on. Nobody ever wants to mention all the games after that where the kid played lights out. Hell, if not for him making back-to-back brilliant plays in week 1, we probably lose that season opener to the Falcons. Corner is just one of those positions where people only notice the bad things. If a guy gets picked on a couple times when he's young, that's his reputation forever. If you don't believe me, go look at Steelers' boards last year after Keenan Lewis signed with us. And we know how good he is.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

05-23-2014, 10:34 AM	#12
Sarik 100th Post Join Date: May 2012 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 292	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Jack Vegas His first game as starter, which he came in halfway through. Then the Atlanta game, where he got picked on in the first half, then came back in the second half to shut them down. That's what Corey White's detractors have to fall back on. Nobody ever wants to mention all the games after that where the kid played lights out. Hell, if not for him making back-to-back brilliant plays in week 1, we probably lose that season opener to the Falcons. Corner is just one of those positions where people only notice the bad things. If a guy gets picked on a couple times when he's young, that's his reputation forever. If you don't believe me, go look at Steelers' boards last year after Keenan Lewis signed with us. And we know how good he is. Lol no...corey white didnt shut anyone down that game nor any game i can recall, even though he's had his better games. its not that he got "picked on" its who it was who picked on him...which was undrafted rookie darius johnson(5'9) who was eatin corey up. And Its not like darius is the fastest kid on the field, only ran a 4.6+ 40, just knew how to work corey. I remember that game vividly...corey was worked on those intermediate/short routes. And no corey didnt work wonders the 2nd half, they actually brought in Rod Sweeting to help in the 2nd half...only thing that helped corey was Keyunta Dawson forced a darius johnson fumble that corey so happened to recover after losing darius another time on a screen thrown outside. So no....and he wasnt exciting to watch in seattle on baldwin either. I do believe and hope corey can make that leap, who doesnt want our guys to be great. But gettin back p-rob and adding bailey & SJB should help tremendously. I think you're confusing ppls "hate" of white with their reluctancy to show optimism bc of the equally bad plays he's put up to go along with the good. By year 3 we should expect him to make the leap...we'll wait to see that. But i believe...im more pro p-rob tho. Even tho he made some bad plays he's made some outstanding plays on the ball and has better ball skills. If the organization was so set on corey white being their no. 2 guy they wouldnt have been so set on drafting SJB or adding champ. payton said himself that if sjb had been taken before their selection they would have tried to trade out of the 2nd round. That goes along way. Excited to see what this secondary can do this year...mainly the new additions.

05-23-2014, 11:41 AM	#13
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Sarik And no corey didnt work wonders the 2nd half, they actually brought in Rod Sweeting to help in the 2nd half... No no no no no. Just no. You are just flat-out incorrect here dude. I just watched that game to make sure my recollection was true. Sweeting came in for a while at the end of the first half, but barely saw the field in the second. White was out there on his own in man coverage and did a good job. The only time he really lost his man was on a crossing pattern where he lost #13 in traffic but Lofton came up and made the play and the guy dropped the ball. This is why I can't take Corey White's detractors seriously. None of them seem to pay any attention to the actual game. Not trying to get personal here, I'm just saying it's hard for me to respect your opinion when you don't even know what really happened. I have watched all of these games at least 5 times over the last few weeks. I played safety in college and coached DB's as a grad assistant. I'm not exactly flying blind here. The kid was a fine #2 corner after getting his feet under him. Don't be surprised if he keeps the job this year.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

05-23-2014, 12:01 PM	#14
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Champ Bailey #27 apologies if I sounded like a know-it-all.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

05-23-2014, 12:11 PM	#15
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Jack Vegas apologies if I sounded like a know-it-all. You know, what you know... No apologies necessary.

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05-23-2014, 04:20 PM	#16
Sarik 100th Post Join Date: May 2012 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 292	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Jack Vegas No no no no no. Just no. You are just flat-out incorrect here dude. I just watched that game to make sure my recollection was true. Sweeting came in for a while at the end of the first half, but barely saw the field in the second. White was out there on his own in man coverage and did a good job. The only time he really lost his man was on a crossing pattern where he lost #13 in traffic but Lofton came up and made the play and the guy dropped the ball. This is why I can't take Corey White's detractors seriously. None of them seem to pay any attention to the actual game. Not trying to get personal here, I'm just saying it's hard for me to respect your opinion when you don't even know what really happened. I have watched all of these games at least 5 times over the last few weeks. I played safety in college and coached DB's as a grad assistant. I'm not exactly flying blind here. The kid was a fine #2 corner after getting his feet under him. Don't be surprised if he keeps the job this year. No sir. Watch it again. Sweeting was brought in to help. Listen to the guys announcing...they even mention darius being an undrafted FA that didnt run well and talked bout rod. In the 4th quarter when the falcons had a chance to turn things around darius got him again on that wr screen. And if you watched it again i dont understand how you still got keyunta dawson confused with curtis lofton. Corey ended up chasing him from behind and fell on the fumble. But my whole argument was no one was shutdown..he gave up 6 catches to a rookie wr. Imo that is in no way "shutting anyone down"... And again im good with corey but not as a no.2 guy...YET. All i was saying was you were confusing the doubts from only "some" ppl as hate, and im not in that number. & the drafting of SJB & addition of champ should show that the organization feels the same way as most of the fan base. Not that he's trash or anything like that, but that he still needs some work and id hope we can all agree on that bud. Know what i mean. Na man, this is family here bro. No ill intentions from anyone...at least id hope not lol. dizzle88 likes this.

05-23-2014, 04:29 PM	#17
Sarik 100th Post Join Date: May 2012 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 292	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Honestly i believe corey can be a solid corner in this league...but he has some maturing to do as a player. My main issue with Corey, and its a big one, is that he consistently fails to turn his head and locate the ball. Relies too much on the receivers eyes and hands and by that time its too late. Chalk up the reception. Both plays Doug Baldwin had on him in the division round are prime examples of that. Ball is lobbed in the air by russ and corey fails to locate the ball. Otherwise the coverage was actually pretty good, im sure after observing you would agree. And cant ask him to cover the shifty guys with full trust just yet or more "big time" WR's...playoff game against the eagles can show that. Keenan goes down, so corey has to take on desean and the eagles licked their chops on that and turned the game around. Gave up two big 40 yrd plays...one being a reception then the other being PI, which was without a doubt...he just looked bad and lost out there. Not ready to be THE guy...but do i believe he can be that no.2 someday? Absolutely! I honestly feel Corey does have every tool to be a solid corner like his wingman keenan...just a matter of time before it happens. But at this point do i believe he's better than Patrick Robinson? No. Fairly even...but i MAY give pat the nod. He looked solid before he went down. Lets hope for good things this year from our group. And anything less than top 3 would leave me extremely disappointed. I expect corey and pat to make the jump and our pass D to be tops among the league. But if that doesnt happen, it may be time to make some changes.

05-23-2014, 05:55 PM	#18
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Sarik No sir. Watch it again. Sweeting was brought in to help. Not in the second half, which was the whole point. I never denied that White struggled in the first half. It was his first game as a starter, after all. I also never denied they brought Sweeting in. But Sweeting only played the late part of the first half. Watch the game again, during the second half White is one-on-one on the outside receiver. Lined up on the right side the vast majority of it. Seriously, I'm looking at it right now. Originally Posted by Sarik Listen to the guys announcing...they even mention darius being an undrafted FA that didnt run well and talked bout rod. In the 4th quarter when the falcons had a chance to turn things around darius got him again on that wr screen. You said it yourself...screen. The very definition of screen play means that White was going to be wiped out by a blocker (in this particular case it was actually two blockers). That is not a case of Corey White getting beat. You can't possibly hold a screen play against a corner who gets two guys in his face off the snap. That was Malcolm Jenkins' responsiblity...not White. Predictably Jenkins was nowhere to be found, but that is another story. Originally Posted by Sarik And if you watched it again i dont understand how you still got keyunta dawson confused with curtis lofton. I didn't confuse anybody with anybody. We are talking about two totally different plays. I didn't count the screen play because you cannot possibly blame that on a corner who is getting blocked out by a tight end and another WR. The play I counted was earlier in the 3rd Q, and one where White was actually responsible for the coverage and lost his man. That is something he would actually be accountable for, except Lofton made the play. Originally Posted by Sarik he gave up 6 catches to a rookie wr. Imo that is in no way "shutting anyone down"... Again I was referring to his performance in the second half of the game, not the first. He obviously got lit up in the first. What makes him a good player is that he was able to come back in the second half and gave up absolutely nothing on his watch, in his first start ever. In any case I was irritable this morning and I do have some know-it-all tendencies. It's all good, I shouldn't have called you out or anything. But I had just watched that game and your recollection didn't jibe with mine.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

05-23-2014, 06:29 PM	#19
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Champ Bailey #27 None of this BTW is me talking up White over Robinson. I may actually be Patrick Robinson's biggest fan on this board. In fact White's situation this offseason reminds me of the way a lot of people thought about Robinson last year. Again corner is just one of those positions where people don't notice you unless you screw up, and it seems like no amount of great performance really changes it. I'm telling you half the people on Steelers' boards still think Keenan Lewis is a total bum because he got burned a lot there in his first couple years. Try telling them he's an elite corner right now and you'll get laughed out of the place.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

05-24-2014, 03:00 PM	#20
Sarik 100th Post Join Date: May 2012 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 292	Re: Champ Bailey #27 Originally Posted by Jack Vegas None of this BTW is me talking up White over Robinson. I may actually be Patrick Robinson's biggest fan on this board. In fact White's situation this offseason reminds me of the way a lot of people thought about Robinson last year. Again corner is just one of those positions where people don't notice you unless you screw up, and it seems like no amount of great performance really changes it. I'm telling you half the people on Steelers' boards still think Keenan Lewis is a total bum because he got burned a lot there in his first couple years. Try telling them he's an elite corner right now and you'll get laughed out of the place. Lol i give up, u win... All im sayin is corey is not fully ready for #2, Which most would agree. And being a starter for his first time should not be an excuse for taking on a back up darius johnson, he actually lucked out that he didnt need to take on julio, roddy or even harry. Its not so much ppl remember the screw ups, its just that the good does not really outweigh the bad at all. Dizzle said it perfectly... He screwed up his lone INT of the year badly, but thats forgiven & a rare scenario. And ppl remember the screw ups bc they end up being crucial parts of the game or huge plays...off the top of my head: desean jackson Reception/PI, doug baldwin receptions, darius, Panthers game winning TD from hixon. Id still prefer an old jabari greer, P-Rob over corey, but with that said i believe he's a great no.3 and will be the no.2 guy we all want him to be. SJB and a healthy P-rob do not help his chances though and i think saints see SJB as their guy to pair wit keenan. They clearly covet him. But corey should go out and win the job this offseason... Or at least he better if he's that good. It should be expected if he is in fact the future like you say and we believe he could be. But if he doesnt what then? I think everyone knows scheme and spags had something to do with the piss poor performance 2 seasons ago. I never counted p-robs performance against him for that and he looked damn solid last year before goin down. We can both and all only hope that both these guys break out. I do think corey white is one of the underrated young corners in the league, but still has some developing. Good chat man...this stuff is healthy. Interesting stuff my man, where did u play college ball? Thats awesome.

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