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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; It is kind of a bizarre question. Do you guys really think a team.coaching staff etc... have ever been told to lose on purpose, barring of course scandalous gambling. But over a draft pick. But I would assure you that ...

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Old 12-02-2004, 07:24 AM   #41
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

It is kind of a bizarre question. Do you guys really think a team.coaching staff etc... have ever been told to lose on purpose, barring of course scandalous gambling. But over a draft pick. But I would assure you that if a team or coaching staff decided to collectively lose it would be newsworthy. I don\'t think we will make the playoffs. I dont think we will have a greta draft pick either. The Saints will win 2 more games and their appears to be quite a bottleneck at that record. Look at our division alone. Rudy didnt quit. Not that that has a damn thing to do with anything here but I needed to say it.

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by subguy]

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Old 12-02-2004, 07:36 AM   #42
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

First Danno, what\'s so frickin hard to understand is that Joe, Deuce, and Bentley will play hard regardless. They always do. We still lose. Nothing has to change for them. They are pro bowl caliber players regardless. Unless you somehow think we have been winning while noone else was looking. They are good-great players and will still be at 4-12 or 12-4. Hope you can understand that. If not, again see San Diego.
So WHO are you suggesting should TANK the remaining games?
The guys that are already quitters or the guys who aren\'t?
I don\'t understand your point at all. Maybe I\'m missing something here.
I think the meaning of \"tank\" is to intentionally lose the game.
If we should intentionally lose, who should be a part of throwing the game?
OK. That\'s my fault. I poorly defined the term.

What I meant was should the Saints check out their prospects and try new schemes for the remainder of the season. Some simple examples:

1) Play Henderson both at receiver and kick returner.
2) Put Stinchcomb in at tackle.
3) Play lazy Sully for a full game.
4) Try blitzing 70 percent of the plays.
5) Give Bowman and extended tryout along with Stecker.
6) Throw the ball downfield on first and second down to Stallworth.
7) Play Micheal Lewis at receiver for a whole game.
8) Play Mitchell at safety. Give him a real chance.
9) Pull in practice squad players for at least one real game and play them.

Now there obviously are reasons why the coaching staff doesn\'t make these changes. It\'s because they believe that changes like these doesn\'t give the team the best chance to win. But being mediocre for a 4th consecutive season isn\'t going to be real productive. Playing the way we\'ve been playing leads to a 6-10 or 7-9 season, out of the playoffs, and a sucky draft pick to boot.

Trying something different isn\'t quitting. Giving other players a chance isn\'t quitting. The players that you\'ve named above have nothing to prove in the NFL.

Of course something interesting may happen. Changes may catch a spark. Playing a different defensive scheme may improve the overall defense. Throwing the ball downfield to Stallworth, Henderson, or Lewis may spark the offense.

But 2-3 or 3-2 is a virtually worthless record for the remainder of the season. We need an extreme record one way or the other, like 5-0 or 0-5.

All I\'m asking is why not take a gamble? Playing safe predictible football has gotten the Saints absolutely nowhere this year, or in the 3 years previous. The last time the Saints played on the edge was in 2000. We all know what happened then.

In fact doing this will help the coaches too. It\'ll show whatever innovations that Haslett, McCarthy, and ... (oh wait Venturi wouldn\'t know an innovation if it smacked him upside the head.) have up their sleeves.

Not going to the playoffs, not getting a top pick, not seeing what other players can do, is boring as all get out.

Why not take a chance?

SFIAH

The Saints have been to playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and a own a SB championship.

I can hardly believe this happened in my lifetime.
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Old 12-02-2004, 07:51 AM   #43
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

Now THAT I wouldn\'t mind. Once we\'re offiially eliminated lets take a look at the youngsters.

Start Leisle, Mitchell, Sullivan (all 60 minutes), Will Smith, Bockwoldt, Allen (all 60 minutes), Watson, Craft, Brown, Hilton, Klingsbury, Stecker, Henderson, Gardner, and Stinchcomb. Or at least get a lot of minutes.

It won\'t be TANKING the game but I can assure you the results would be the same and these youngins would get some real game time and accurate evaluation.

I could live with that, easily.
Bingo! If nothing else it\'ll get all of these folks real game film in real game situations against teams who are in fact still trying to get into the playoffs.

In my mind, the collection of the offensive last drives of both the offense (can\'t make a 1st down to seal the game) and defense (can\'t stop the known playmakers of the Falcons when it counted most) sealed it for me. A playoff caliber team would have found a way to win that game last week. BTW the playoff caliber team did find a way to win that game last week.

So why just play out the string? What purpose does it serve?

I\'m no longer on the fence with this. Truthfully I don\'t beleve that the Saints are consistent enough to go 4-1 or 5-0 down the stretch. The defense is too flimsy and the offense is too flaky, especially in the 1st quarter.

If such a decision were to be made, it would need to be made now. Carolina is by far the hottest non playoff team in the NFC, and we get them twice down the stretch. The absolute worst thing that could happen is to beat these guys next week, then go into the typical December swoon.

I don\'t think you can\'t wait for official elimination. The way that the West has been [not] playing, and the inconsistency of Dallas, Carolina, and TB, it\'s possible to still be in it at week 15 at 6-8.

So it decision time for the Saints. It has to be put up or shut up. Go 5-0 with the players we have or play new players.

I vote play new players.

SFIAH

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by SaintFanInATLHELL]

The Saints have been to playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and a own a SB championship.

I can hardly believe this happened in my lifetime.
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Old 12-02-2004, 07:55 AM   #44
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

Who says we can forfeit? Its perfectly legall to forfeit and can be done. Thats essentially what we are discussing here. If we are talking about sending bodies out to see what they can do, hell I can play RB so you can sit Deuce. Been a few years but what the heck I\'ll give it a shot again.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:05 AM   #45
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

It is kind of a bizarre question. Do you guys really think a team.coaching staff etc... have ever been told to lose on purpose, barring of course scandalous gambling. But over a draft pick. But I would assure you that if a team or coaching staff decided to collectively lose it would be newsworthy. I don\'t think we will make the playoffs. I dont think we will have a greta draft pick either. The Saints will win 2 more games and their appears to be quite a bottleneck at that record. Look at our division alone. Rudy didnt quit. Not that that has a damn thing to do with anything here but I needed to say it.

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by subguy]
It\'s not that newsworthy. Denny Green benched his annoited starting QB a couple of weeks ago. McMahon got a chance to play a half recently. The Giants threw in their presumptive franchise QB midseason. OK the last one was newsworthy.

7-9 doesn\'t get the last playoff spot. it\'ll be 8-8 at the very least, 9-7 most likely. And the #6 wild card seed isn\'t going anywhere in these playoffs. It means consecutive games against GB (I\'m betting that GB will win the division because Minnesota\'s defense is too suspect) and then the Eagles, who will likely be 15-1 by the time it\'s all over. There\'s no shot with the worst defense in the league.

Fold doesn\'t mean quit. Fold, or tank, or whatever verb you choose, means to try a different direction for the rest of the season. The direction that the Saints choose for this season hasn\'t gotten them anywhere. In the playoffs this year in the NFC, only the #5 seed has a real shot from the WC group. And Minnesota/GB division loser is firmly entrenched in that spot.

Play different players. Try different schemes. Run different plays.

Do something different. If it doesn\'t work out then at least the next coach (and I really hope the next GM, but I guess we\'re stuck with Dumba$$, oops I\'m mean Loomis... ) will have an idea about the rest of the players on the team, and the potential of a top 5 draft pick to boot.

SFIAH

The Saints have been to playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and a own a SB championship.

I can hardly believe this happened in my lifetime.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:15 AM   #46
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

definitely strive for the pick for next year. doesn\'t make sense to squeak into the playoffs at 8-8 to be demolished and haslett keep his job.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:16 AM   #47
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

Who says we can forfeit? Its perfectly legall to forfeit and can be done. Thats essentially what we are discussing here. If we are talking about sending bodies out to see what they can do, hell I can play RB so you can sit Deuce. Been a few years but what the heck I\'ll give it a shot again.
I\'m pretty sure the next coach won\'t need you on the squad next year.

I surprised to find so many folks upset about legitimate personell/scheme evaluation during the season. Seasons come and go, but franchises persist. The current team has already given away the 3-4 wins required to be considered playoff caliber, with the last one last week the absolute worst.

I\'m just trying to figure out why not start evaluating talent for next year. Why not get on tape the players you have, so that the next group can figure out whether or not they are worth keeping.

This is the reason I called for Haslett\'s head after the TB loss. In an interim coach situation, despite Robiskie\'s protests to the contrary, is talent and coach evaluation for the next group coming in.

Can someone explain why 7-9, no playoffs, mediocre pick, is somehow better than getting your backups some significant playing time, getting them on film, and getting a chance at a much much better pick?

SFIAH

The Saints have been to playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and a own a SB championship.

I can hardly believe this happened in my lifetime.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:30 AM   #48
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

There is one startlingly obvious oversight that seems to have slipped past all of you. Haslett is on the block, you must be friggin nuts if you think for one instant he will cater to any \"auditions\" for the next staff.

END OF STORY.

P.S. We go 2-3 with all our first stringers, I will bet any money on this, so stop blowing hot air that doesn\'t have a snowballs chance in hell of happening. My guarantee is only for the 1st stringers, the 2-3 part who knows.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:06 AM   #49
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

SFIAH, get out of my head. lol We have so many \"I never wanna see my team lose\" guys on here it\'s maddening. Why does anyone wanna be 7-9 or 8-8 again? Why? I am with you all the way, either 5-0 or 0-5. None of this middling crap they do all the time. I wanna see what Henderson and Stinchcomb can do also. I wanna see what Leisle can do. Nothing good is gonna happen even if we do squeak into the playoffs. Name one division leading team we can beat on the road. It\'s so frustrating to have so many wanting to play the \"we still have a shot at the playoffs card\" but not wanting to get ridiculed so not coming right out and saying it. If that\'s what you think, say it. Don\'t give me this \"we play to win the games\" stuff. Have you guys been watching this team the last 4 years? Where\'s the winning? It\'s very troubling that we have come to accept 7-9 as a respectable record now. It is very troubling that we would prefer to pick in the late first round again cause this staff gaffed on Sullivan when impact players were there for the taking, and we all know who they are.

SO say we lose out and we somehow get Derrick Johnson in the draft, the same \"I still wanna win some games\" people will be hailing him as the next Pat Swilling and lauding the pick as one of the best ever. Oh, but the draft is a crap shoot. Come on man.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:32 AM   #50
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Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft

We have so many \"I never wanna see my team lose\" guys on here it\'s maddening.
What\'s the problem with people forming different opinions than you? Maybe it\'s my competitive nature, but I never want to see my team lose, regardless of the circumstances.

Why does anyone wanna be 7-9 or 8-8 again? Why? I am with you all the way, either 5-0 or 0-5. None of this middling crap they do all the time.
Who said they did? You are looking at it from a season standpoint, I’m looking at it, game to game.

I wanna see what Henderson and Stinchcomb can do also. I wanna see what Leisle can do.
So do I, actually. Who said they can’t win by starting these players. Is it “either-or�? I can’t have both? I’m a greedy bastard, I want it all, and I want it now.

Nothing good is gonna happen even if we do squeak into the playoffs. Name one division leading team we can beat on the road.
Honestly, I can’t say there is one we could beat. But what I want, and my perception of reality have been opposite ends of the spectrum after our third loss.

It\'s so frustrating to have so many wanting to play the \"we still have a shot at the playoffs card\" but not wanting to get ridiculed so not coming right out and saying it. If that\'s what you think, say it. Don\'t give me this \"we play to win the games\" stuff. Have you guys been watching this team the last 4 years? Where\'s the winning? It\'s very troubling that we have come to accept 7-9 as a respectable record now. It is very troubling that we would prefer to pick in the late first round again cause this staff gaffed on Sullivan when impact players were there for the taking, and we all know who they are.
You’re making so many broad assumptions in this paragraph, I don’t know where to begin. So all the people here that want their team to win, secretly harbor distorted views of reality in that we can somehow make the playoffs? Who are you kidding? I would prefer to pick in the late first round this next draft because of Sullivan? When I sit down and watch a game, the draft is the last thing on my mind. Is it really that hard to understand that some just want their team to win?

SO say we lose out and we somehow get Derrick Johnson in the draft, the same \"I still wanna win some games\" people will be hailing him as the next Pat Swilling and lauding the pick as one of the best ever. Oh, but the draft is a crap shoot. Come on man.
Either-or, eh? That statement makes no sense. It’s like saying, you PAID for the tickets to the game, but don’t booo- your money is a direct endorsement of the team, so you don’t have that privilege. I understand your reasoning for wanting to lose out, so that it will ensure the Saints will have a top 5 pick. But I don’t agree with it. Can we agree to disagree, and quit throwing all the extra’s in because you don’t understand them?

The waiting drove me mad....
I don't want to hear from those that know...
Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed


Eddie is a....draftnik?
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