Graham designated TE by arbitrator

07-04-2014, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by B_Dub_Saint

That was great. You should do my taxes bro. I might be a rich man

Im still puzzled how the cap really works and the loop holes to get through them.

It's not loopholes. The signing bonus is pro-rated over the term of the contract. For instance, a $24 million signing bonus over a 6-year contract comes out to $4 million per year. To that is added each year's salary, plus any incentives, to come up with that season's cap hit. For instance, in Graham's case (we don't know any actual numbers yet except for the $7.053 million franchise tag for this season, which counts against the Saints' salary cap). So if Graham get $24 million in signing bonus, and a $2 million dollar salary for 2014, that adds up to $6 million against the cap for 2014 (if no incentives). In that case, the Saints would gain $1.053 million in this season's cap (the difference between the $7.053 million franchise tag and the $6 million pro-rated bonus + 2014 salary.

The signing bonus portion is guaranteed. If that player were to be waived before the end of the contract, the remaining portion of the pro-rated signing bonus would count against the salary cap... which is then "dead money." In some cases the cap hit can be spread over two seasons (I don't know the exact details of how this is done). Perhaps someone can post to this subject.

vtiger72 · 07-04-2014, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by the-commish

It's not loopholes. The signing bonus is pro-rated over the term of the contract. For instance, a $24 million signing bonus over a 6-year contract comes out to $4 million per year. To that is added each year's salary, plus any incentives, to come up with that season's cap hit. For instance, in Graham's case (we don't know any actual numbers yet except for the $7.053 million franchise tag for this season, which counts against the Saints' salary cap). So if Graham get $24 million in signing bonus, and a $2 million dollar salary for 2014, that adds up to $6 million against the cap for 2014 (if no incentives). In that case, the Saints would gain $1.053 million in this season's cap (the difference between the $7.053 million franchise tag and the $6 million pro-rated bonus + 2014 salary.

The signing bonus portion is guaranteed. If that player were to be waived before the end of the contract, the remaining portion of the pro-rated signing bonus would count against the salary cap... which is then "dead money." In some cases the cap hit can be spread over two seasons (I don't know the exact details of how this is done). Perhaps someone can post to this subject.

If a player is cut, all guaranteed money (remaining pro-rated portion of signing bonus and any other salaries that were guaranteed) counts against that year's cap. However, a player can be designated a June 1 cut which means that the cap hit is spread over the current year and the following year, however the savings cannot be used until after June 1.

B_Dub_Saint · 07-04-2014, 10:53 PM

So in other words, in Loomis I trust.

halloween 65 · 07-08-2014, 10:55 AM

I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it.

AsylumGuido · 07-08-2014, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it.

Loomis isn't that stupid. A long term would be far more advantageous for the Saints. It would greatly lower his cap hit.

A question for you ... why do you hate Graham so much? You would be hard pressed to find a classier individual on the Saints roster (outside of Drew Brees, of course).

Jack Vegas · 07-08-2014, 12:04 PM

Davis: Bucs drafted Barron specifically because of Graham | ProFootballTalk

Apparently one of the Graham camps arguments is that the Bucs drafted Mark Barron to cover Graham. LOL. What a terrible argument. If anything that only further confirms that he is a tight end. Would you draft a safety to cover Calvin Johnson or Brandon Marshall?

halloween 65 · 07-08-2014, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Loomis isn't that stupid. A long term would be far more advantageous for the Saints. It would greatly lower his cap hit.

A question for you ... why do you hate Graham so much? You would be hard pressed to find a classier individual on the Saints roster (outside of Drew Brees, of course).

Is buisness but to your question about Graham. I don't see heart. God given talent but no heart. I shouldn't mention alligator arms and no (none) blocking skills which overall take away plays on the field (limited) but all of those have been beat to death and could die at any time kind of like (he said, she said). Put a TE in this O that is well rounded and does it all we would be unstopable at least one with a heart.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 07-08-2014, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it.

I'm not even sure where to start here. All of the above is predicated on the (I believe flawed) premise that the Saints do not want JG as their tight end. If that's the case, then the organization has royally screwed the pooch. The best value the Saints could have gotten for Graham (again on the presumption that they didn't want him) would have been to trade Graham while he was still under contract before the tag was applied. They would get the maximum value for the least cost to the organization.

Well that didn't happen. It's pretty clear the objective is a long term deal. The tag is a mechanism to create the time and space necessary to get the deal done. It's designed to put pressure on both sides to get out from under it.

I'm still not sure why some folks see this arbitration as bloodsport. All it's even seemed to be was a procedural move by two sides (the NFL and NFLPA by the way) seeking to gain a financial advantage for their side. I sorely doubt that either JG or the Saints perceive each other as the scum of the Earth for defending a position in arbitration.

The Saints do not control him. In their current position they will have to pay $7 million or $15 million for 1/2 years, all on the current cap, then lose the player in free agency for no compensation. Don't believe the hype that teams want to franchise players. It stresses their salary caps and creates situations where they can lose top players for nothing in return. It is not a good position to be in. Ask Buffalo about that with Byrd. They paid him $6.9 million last year and now he's gone with the Bills getting nothing but a hole in their pocket. And Byrd was absolutely correct not to take the long term deal precisely because another team was willing to give him what he is worth. $26+ million in almost guaranteed money in the first two years. That's more than double what he would have made under the tag.

Like it or not Jimmy Graham is worth at least $11million/yr on the open market. He's certainly worth more than the $9 million/yr that Gronk is being paid and more valuable than Dwayne Bowe, who is earning $11 million average on his current contract.

In addition JG has proved to be valuable to the Saints organization over the last 3 years.

Given all of this, forcing JG to play under a $7 million tag then letting him go is the opposite of smart. Fortunately Mickey Loomis has proven over the years that he is definitely not the opposite of smart.

SFIAH

Utah_Saint · 07-08-2014, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

Is buisness but to your question about Graham. I don't see heart. God given talent but no heart. I shouldn't mention alligator arms and no (none) blocking skills which overall take away plays on the field (limited) but all of those have been beat to death and could die at any time kind of like (he said, she said). Put a TE in this O that is well rounded and does it all we would be unstopable at least one with a heart.

Jimmy's played hurt two seasons in a row now, so i don't know why you'd say he has no heart.

As far as "alligator arms", he's scored more touchdowns than anyone in the league over the last 3 seasons. Is it just the style of how he catches the ball? if not how much more did you want him to do?

That Graham has "no (none) blocking skills" is an extreme exaggeration, he's not the best blocking TE but he's certainly not the worst.

So it's not a "he said, she said", PFF rates TEs on their ability to block.

Last season Jimmy Graham rated higher in run blocking than....

Jermichael Finley
Brandon Myers
Jim Dray
Coby Fleener
Dallas Clark
Charles Clay
Jordan Cameron
Timothy Wright
Jermaine Gresham
Antonio Gates
Tony Gonzalez
Julius Thomas
and
Ed Dickson.

Last season Jimmy Graham rated higher in pass blocking than...

Heath Miller
Brandon Myers
Brent Celek
Delanie Walker
Jordan Cameron
Ben Watson
Joseph Fauria
Sean McGrath
Kellen Winslow
Owen Daniels
Jermichael Finley
Tony Gonzalez
Zach Miller
Greg Olson
Scott Chandler
Logan Paulsen
Martellus Bennett
Jim Dray
and
Jeff Cumberland

And that's after the Saints faced 6 or 7 of the top front 7s in the league.

The season before, Jimmy Graham graded out positively in both run (27th of 62) and pass (25th of 62) blocking.

the-commish · 07-08-2014, 02:30 PM

The problem with Jimmy Graham and blocking is this: if the Saints are in position where they need yardage to keep the ball (3rd down whether long or short yardage) if Graham is in the game, the opposing defense knows that it's likely to be a pass play rather than a running play. If Graham were better at blocking there would be no tipoff. Also that would help Graham against press coverage.

07-04-2014, 07:33 PM	#81
Threaded by the-commish Longtime WhoDat Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Henderson, NV Posts: 529 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by B_Dub_Saint That was great. You should do my taxes bro. I might be a rich man Im still puzzled how the cap really works and the loop holes to get through them. It's not loopholes. The signing bonus is pro-rated over the term of the contract. For instance, a $24 million signing bonus over a 6-year contract comes out to $4 million per year. To that is added each year's salary, plus any incentives, to come up with that season's cap hit. For instance, in Graham's case (we don't know any actual numbers yet except for the $7.053 million franchise tag for this season, which counts against the Saints' salary cap). So if Graham get $24 million in signing bonus, and a $2 million dollar salary for 2014, that adds up to $6 million against the cap for 2014 (if no incentives). In that case, the Saints would gain $1.053 million in this season's cap (the difference between the $7.053 million franchise tag and the $6 million pro-rated bonus + 2014 salary. The signing bonus portion is guaranteed. If that player were to be waived before the end of the contract, the remaining portion of the pro-rated signing bonus would count against the salary cap... which is then "dead money." In some cases the cap hit can be spread over two seasons (I don't know the exact details of how this is done). Perhaps someone can post to this subject. SaintFanInATLHELL and hagan714 like this.
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07-04-2014, 07:48 PM	#82
vtiger72 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 185	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Originally Posted by the-commish It's not loopholes. The signing bonus is pro-rated over the term of the contract. For instance, a $24 million signing bonus over a 6-year contract comes out to $4 million per year. To that is added each year's salary, plus any incentives, to come up with that season's cap hit. For instance, in Graham's case (we don't know any actual numbers yet except for the $7.053 million franchise tag for this season, which counts against the Saints' salary cap). So if Graham get $24 million in signing bonus, and a $2 million dollar salary for 2014, that adds up to $6 million against the cap for 2014 (if no incentives). In that case, the Saints would gain $1.053 million in this season's cap (the difference between the $7.053 million franchise tag and the $6 million pro-rated bonus + 2014 salary. The signing bonus portion is guaranteed. If that player were to be waived before the end of the contract, the remaining portion of the pro-rated signing bonus would count against the salary cap... which is then "dead money." In some cases the cap hit can be spread over two seasons (I don't know the exact details of how this is done). Perhaps someone can post to this subject. If a player is cut, all guaranteed money (remaining pro-rated portion of signing bonus and any other salaries that were guaranteed) counts against that year's cap. However, a player can be designated a June 1 cut which means that the cap hit is spread over the current year and the following year, however the savings cannot be used until after June 1.
vtiger72 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 185

07-04-2014, 10:53 PM	#83
B_Dub_Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 2,343 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator So in other words, in Loomis I trust.

07-08-2014, 10:55 AM	#84
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it.

07-08-2014, 11:14 AM	#85
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,386	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Originally Posted by halloween 65 I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it. Loomis isn't that stupid. A long term would be far more advantageous for the Saints. It would greatly lower his cap hit. A question for you ... why do you hate Graham so much? You would be hard pressed to find a classier individual on the Saints roster (outside of Drew Brees, of course).

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07-08-2014, 12:04 PM	#86
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Davis: Bucs drafted Barron specifically because of Graham \| ProFootballTalk Apparently one of the Graham camps arguments is that the Bucs drafted Mark Barron to cover Graham. LOL. What a terrible argument. If anything that only further confirms that he is a tight end. Would you draft a safety to cover Calvin Johnson or Brandon Marshall?
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07-08-2014, 01:06 PM	#87
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Loomis isn't that stupid. A long term would be far more advantageous for the Saints. It would greatly lower his cap hit. A question for you ... why do you hate Graham so much? You would be hard pressed to find a classier individual on the Saints roster (outside of Drew Brees, of course). Is buisness but to your question about Graham. I don't see heart. God given talent but no heart. I shouldn't mention alligator arms and no (none) blocking skills which overall take away plays on the field (limited) but all of those have been beat to death and could die at any time kind of like (he said, she said). Put a TE in this O that is well rounded and does it all we would be unstopable at least one with a heart.

07-08-2014, 01:23 PM	#88
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,647	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Originally Posted by halloween 65 I could see Loomis making him play for the "Tag Money" only this season. With the ruling going against all TE( which is what happened) they might look at the position like they do the RB position, not as glamorous as it use to be and drop the money. The Saints control his butt now. Love it. I'm not even sure where to start here. All of the above is predicated on the (I believe flawed) premise that the Saints do not want JG as their tight end. If that's the case, then the organization has royally screwed the pooch. The best value the Saints could have gotten for Graham (again on the presumption that they didn't want him) would have been to trade Graham while he was still under contract before the tag was applied. They would get the maximum value for the least cost to the organization. Well that didn't happen. It's pretty clear the objective is a long term deal. The tag is a mechanism to create the time and space necessary to get the deal done. It's designed to put pressure on both sides to get out from under it. I'm still not sure why some folks see this arbitration as bloodsport. All it's even seemed to be was a procedural move by two sides (the NFL and NFLPA by the way) seeking to gain a financial advantage for their side. I sorely doubt that either JG or the Saints perceive each other as the scum of the Earth for defending a position in arbitration. The Saints do not control him. In their current position they will have to pay $7 million or $15 million for 1/2 years, all on the current cap, then lose the player in free agency for no compensation. Don't believe the hype that teams want to franchise players. It stresses their salary caps and creates situations where they can lose top players for nothing in return. It is not a good position to be in. Ask Buffalo about that with Byrd. They paid him $6.9 million last year and now he's gone with the Bills getting nothing but a hole in their pocket. And Byrd was absolutely correct not to take the long term deal precisely because another team was willing to give him what he is worth. $26+ million in almost guaranteed money in the first two years. That's more than double what he would have made under the tag. Like it or not Jimmy Graham is worth at least $11million/yr on the open market. He's certainly worth more than the $9 million/yr that Gronk is being paid and more valuable than Dwayne Bowe, who is earning $11 million average on his current contract. In addition JG has proved to be valuable to the Saints organization over the last 3 years. Given all of this, forcing JG to play under a $7 million tag then letting him go is the opposite of smart. Fortunately Mickey Loomis has proven over the years that he is definitely not the opposite of smart. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

07-08-2014, 02:14 PM	#89
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator Originally Posted by halloween 65 Is buisness but to your question about Graham. I don't see heart. God given talent but no heart. I shouldn't mention alligator arms and no (none) blocking skills which overall take away plays on the field (limited) but all of those have been beat to death and could die at any time kind of like (he said, she said). Put a TE in this O that is well rounded and does it all we would be unstopable at least one with a heart. Jimmy's played hurt two seasons in a row now, so i don't know why you'd say he has no heart. As far as "alligator arms", he's scored more touchdowns than anyone in the league over the last 3 seasons. Is it just the style of how he catches the ball? if not how much more did you want him to do? That Graham has "no (none) blocking skills" is an extreme exaggeration, he's not the best blocking TE but he's certainly not the worst. So it's not a "he said, she said", PFF rates TEs on their ability to block. Last season Jimmy Graham rated higher in run blocking than.... Jermichael Finley Brandon Myers Jim Dray Coby Fleener Dallas Clark Charles Clay Jordan Cameron Timothy Wright Jermaine Gresham Antonio Gates Tony Gonzalez Julius Thomas and Ed Dickson. Last season Jimmy Graham rated higher in pass blocking than... Heath Miller Brandon Myers Brent Celek Delanie Walker Jordan Cameron Ben Watson Joseph Fauria Sean McGrath Kellen Winslow Owen Daniels Jermichael Finley Tony Gonzalez Zach Miller Greg Olson Scott Chandler Logan Paulsen Martellus Bennett Jim Dray and Jeff Cumberland And that's after the Saints faced 6 or 7 of the top front 7s in the league. The season before, Jimmy Graham graded out positively in both run (27th of 62) and pass (25th of 62) blocking. SaintFanInATLHELL, AsylumGuido and AliJee like this.

07-08-2014, 02:30 PM	#90
the-commish Longtime WhoDat Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Henderson, NV Posts: 529	Re: Graham designated TE by arbitrator The problem with Jimmy Graham and blocking is this: if the Saints are in position where they need yardage to keep the ball (3rd down whether long or short yardage) if Graham is in the game, the opposing defense knows that it's likely to be a pass play rather than a running play. If Graham were better at blocking there would be no tipoff. Also that would help Graham against press coverage.

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