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If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I am afraid that Graham did only drop THREE balls this past season. Perhaps your image of Graham's supposed tendency is based upon 2012, instead. Graham did have 14 drops in 2012, but one must consider ...

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Old 07-14-2014, 10:39 PM   #31
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
I am afraid that Graham did only drop THREE balls this past season. Perhaps your image of Graham's supposed tendency is based upon 2012, instead. Graham did have 14 drops in 2012, but one must consider that he was playing with an injured wrist. In 2011 his drop percentage was only 3.4% with five drops in 149 possibilities.

As for disappearing, any player would disappear with the muggings that the officials allowed from NE's Talib and Seattle's Sherman. It was during that NE game that Graham suffered the Plantar fasciitis injury that slowed him for the remainder of the season. I can see that you place the blame for those loses on Graham. He was doubled repeatedly during both of those games which should have freed up someone else one would think. Any player can be taken out of a game, regardless of how good they are, but in doing so the defense risks some other player blowing up instead. It was the rest of the Saints' offense that deserve the blame in those games, not Graham.
You are going by official stats which only give credit for obvious drops. They don't think losing the ball after being hit counts. But the great one's sure count it against themselves.

And you're dead wrong about the NE game. They had Talib on him, period. I never once saw him doubled, and even if he was it would have been very seldom. You think Talib would play any differently against the rest of the league if he can just mug people and get away with it? Of course not, yet he completely shut down Graham and struggled against pretty much everyone else the rest of the season. That didn't speak well of jimmy. Because that's just it. If you're physical with Jimmy, he gets frustrated. More and more teams are going to start banging him around, because that's what you have to do. Does Calvin Johnson get doubled? Does he get mugged? Does anybody shut him down? The first two answers are yes, and the last one is NO.

I don't blame the loss to NE only on Jimmy, but as someone who wants to be the highest paid TE I sure expect him to do more than absolutely nothing as he did in that game. I Remember how Jimmy played in that playoff game against the 49ers a couple years ago. That's the intensity I want to see. I just haven't seen him respond to that type of challenge since then.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:50 PM   #32
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You are going by official stats which only give credit for obvious drops. They don't think losing the ball after being hit counts. But the great one's sure count it against themselves.

And you're dead wrong about the NE game. They had Talib on him, period. I never once saw him doubled, and even if he was it would have been very seldom. You think Talib would play any differently against the rest of the league if he can just mug people and get away with it? Of course not, yet he completely shut down Graham and struggled against pretty much everyone else the rest of the season. That didn't speak well of jimmy. Because that's just it. If you're physical with Jimmy, he gets frustrated. More and more teams are going to start banging him around, because that's what you have to do. Does Calvin Johnson get doubled? Does he get mugged? Does anybody shut him down? The first two answers are yes, and the last one is NO.

I don't blame the loss to NE only on Jimmy, but as someone who wants to be the highest paid TE I sure expect him to do more than absolutely nothing as he did in that game. I Remember how Jimmy played in that playoff game against the 49ers a couple years ago. That's the intensity I want to see. I just haven't seen him respond to that type of challenge since then.
Calvin Johnson makes over $18million per year. The discussion is $7million vs. $12 million. Nobody has suggested the Saints pay Graham "Calvin Johnson money". Apples and Oranges.

Although you might want to check out who's made more touchdowns over the last three seasons.
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:52 PM   #33
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You are going by official stats which only give credit for obvious drops. They don't think losing the ball after being hit counts. But the great one's sure count it against themselves.

And you're dead wrong about the NE game. They had Talib on him, period. I never once saw him doubled, and even if he was it would have been very seldom. You think Talib would play any differently against the rest of the league if he can just mug people and get away with it? Of course not, yet he completely shut down Graham and struggled against pretty much everyone else the rest of the season. That didn't speak well of jimmy. Because that's just it. If you're physical with Jimmy, he gets frustrated. More and more teams are going to start banging him around, because that's what you have to do. Does Calvin Johnson get doubled? Does he get mugged? Does anybody shut him down? The first two answers are yes, and the last one is NO.

I don't blame the loss to NE only on Jimmy, but as someone who wants to be the highest paid TE I sure expect him to do more than absolutely nothing as he did in that game. I Remember how Jimmy played in that playoff game against the 49ers a couple years ago. That's the intensity I want to see. I just haven't seen him respond to that type of challenge since then.
Your vitriol against Graham then is based solely upon money that is not coming out of your pocket, and is not going to affect the franchise as a whole moving forward based upon the ever increasing cap. It seems to me that your hatred may be more closely related to jealousy that he has an agent that can make these demands and that he has a union that can fund the fight.

The simple fact is that the Saints are a better team with him than without him. If you would rather not have him as a Saint because of your personal bias then you can gladly move on to another franchise. You will not be missed.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:00 PM   #34
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint View Post
Calvin Johnson makes over $18million per year. The discussion is $7million vs. $12 million. Nobody has suggested the Saints pay Graham "Calvin Johnson money". Apples and Oranges.

Although you might want to check out who's made more touchdowns over the last three seasons.
The argument is not about who makes more money, I'm talking about how great players respond to adversity. It doesn't matter how much more money Calvin Makes, because the Lions have their own priorities.

As for who has more touchdowns, I've already responded to you when you said the exact same thing in another thread. Touchdowns have more to do with opportunity than anything else. I care more about what you do between 20's that puts your team in that position. Drew Brees is light years better than Stafford and he has more decoys on the field than Stafford has had. The lions don't get in the redzone nearly as much as we do. Do I really need to continue with this comparison?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:05 PM   #35
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
The argument is not about who makes more money, I'm talking about how great players respond to adversity. It doesn't matter how much more money Calvin Makes, because the Lions have their own priorities.

As for who has more touchdowns, I've already responded to you when you said the exact same thing in another thread. Touchdowns have more to do with opportunity than anything else. I care more about what you do between 20's that puts your team in that position. Drew Brees is light years better than Stafford and he has more decoys on the field than Stafford has had. The lions don't get in the redzone nearly as much as we do. Do I really need to continue with this comparison?
I am a Saints fan. I want my team to win. Does Graham give me a better chance to win than lessor TE's? Yes. I don't give a flying rat's ass what he is paid. I want him on my team. What is your frickin' hangup about the money?
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:06 PM   #36
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Your vitriol against Graham then is based solely upon money that is not coming out of your pocket, and is not going to affect the franchise as a whole moving forward based upon the ever increasing cap. It seems to me that your hatred may be more closely related to jealousy that he has an agent that can make these demands and that he has a union that can fund the fight.

The simple fact is that the Saints are a better team with him than without him. If you would rather not have him as a Saint because of your personal bias then you can gladly move on to another franchise. You will not be missed.
You are completely out of line. Out of everything that I just explained to you, point by point, you didn't comprehend one thing? You instead accuse me of hatred? Where did I say anything about hating him? I can easily recognize his potential, yet I recognize the reasons why I should question his ability to step up.

I've already said before that we're not a better team without him. But if we're going to commit to the type of money he wants than he better damn well figure out how to be physical.

I have no reason to be jealous of Jimmy. I don't make anywhere near as much money as one single player in the NFL. Yet am I talking all of them? No, I'm talking about one player. I only care about what he makes as it relates to the Saints and how it affects the rest of the team. If he learns to be more physical, than he's worth whatever they give him.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:11 PM   #37
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
I am a Saints fan. I want my team to win. Does Graham give me a better chance to win than lessor TE's? Yes. I don't give a flying rat's ass what he is paid. I want him on my team. What is your frickin' hangup about the money?
Everything I have said up to this point is my hangup. This isn't a normal business. There is a salary cap. I understand he deserves more than he has been making. I just don't want to see a ridiculously high number thrown at him, because we're already on the hook with Drew.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:14 PM   #38
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You are completely out of line. Out of everything that I just explained to you, point by point, you didn't comprehend one thing? You instead accuse me of hatred? Where did I say anything about hating him? I can easily recognize his potential, yet I recognize the reasons why I should question his ability to step up.

I've already said before that we're not a better team without him. But if we're going to commit to the type of money he wants than he better damn well figure out how to be physical.

I have no reason to be jealous of Jimmy. I don't make anywhere near as much money as one single player in the NFL. Yet am I talking all of them? No, I'm talking about one player. I only care about what he makes as it relates to the Saints and how it affects the rest of the team. If he learns to be more physical, than he's worth whatever they give him.
There isn't a player on any roster that couldn't be better than they are, but why is it that you tie it into his right to earn as much as he can? I want Brees to be better. I want Colston to be better. I want Graham to be better. Why the constant bashing on Graham, who is widely recognized by ALL of his peers as one of the very best TE's in the league?

And how does it affect the rest of the team? If he wasn't a member of the team they would not be as good. It is as simple as that. Your hangup is about money for some reason when it should mean nothing to you personally. It chaps your ass. It is obvious. Why?
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:14 PM   #39
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
The argument is not about who makes more money, I'm talking about how great players respond to adversity. It doesn't matter how much more money Calvin Makes, because the Lions have their own priorities.

As for who has more touchdowns, I've already responded to you when you said the exact same thing in another thread. Touchdowns have more to do with opportunity than anything else. I care more about what you do between 20's that puts your team in that position. Drew Brees is light years better than Stafford and he has more decoys on the field than Stafford has had. The lions don't get in the redzone nearly as much as we do. Do I really need to continue with this comparison?
The Saints averaged less than two points/game more than the Lions, there weren't that many red zone opportunities.

What do decoy's have to do with anything. I could easily argue Graham has to share the ball more than Johnson. Graham was targeted 144 times, Johnson targeted 156. That argument works both ways.

OK, let's expand the definition of "shut down" then. How many games did Calvin Johnson get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?
How many games did Jimmy Graham get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:21 PM   #40
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
There isn't a player on any roster that couldn't be better than they are, but why is it that you tie it into his right to earn as much as he can? I want Brees to be better. I want Colston to be better. I want Graham to be better. Why the constant bashing on Graham, who is widely recognized by ALL of his peers as one of the very best TE's in the league?

And how does it affect the rest of the team? If he wasn't a member of the team they would not be as good. It is as simple as that. Your hangup is about money for some reason when it should mean nothing to you personally. It chaps your ass. It is obvious. Why?
Why does it chap you ass what I think? It should have no affect on you. Your hatred of any opinion that does not match yours is painfully obvious.

you have essentially asked me the same question about 10 different ways. What is your problem with comprehension? It matters to me what they pay him because there are limits to what a team can afford. I would rather have him on my team than not, but not at the cost of losing more players down the road. I am a fan of this TEAM. I'm not bashing ANYONE. I'm stating facts that you don't like to hear. You don't like it when I say he's not physical enough. Too bad. I want this team to succeed, and so I am thinking about what this team can afford right now. If you don't agree, i don't care. It's just my opinion. I gave my opinion. I will always give my opinion. I'm always talking the Saints, though, no matter what it's about or whether anyone agrees or not. Know why? because I give a damn.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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