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If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by burningmetal Everything I have said up to this point is my hangup. This isn't a normal business. There is a salary cap. I understand he deserves more than he has been making. I just don't want to ...

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Old 07-14-2014, 11:24 PM   #41
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Everything I have said up to this point is my hangup. This isn't a normal business. There is a salary cap. I understand he deserves more than he has been making. I just don't want to see a ridiculously high number thrown at him, because we're already on the hook with Drew.
No this isn't a normal business, but it is a business being run by individuals that know a whole hell of a lot more than you do about the finances. I am not sure what your expertise involves, but I have spent most of my life working in business. I have a degree in accounting and am a business analyst. I have been schooled in business law and have a better understanding than the vast majority of average fans on the working of a salary cap. The numbers involved in any NFL contract are meaningless as far as yearly average. The only number that mean anything are guaranteed dollar and year by year cap hit.

You mention Brees. We are not on the hook for hardly anything. He has already received most of his guaranteed money as a signing bonus. Loomis can easily guarantee a minimal amount more of the non-guaranteed amount as another bonus and greatly reduce his cap hit in any of the next three seasons. They can do the same with other players across the board.

All of this obsession with cap space is a waste of time for the average fan. It is not an issue. Believe me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:26 PM   #42
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint View Post
The Saints averaged less than two points/game more than the Lions, there weren't that many red zone opportunities.

What do decoy's have to do with anything. I could easily argue Graham has to share the ball more than Johnson. Graham was targeted 144 times, Johnson targeted 156. That argument works both ways.

OK, let's expand the definition of "shut down" then. How many games did Calvin Johnson get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?
How many games did Jimmy Graham get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?
Decoys have to do with opening up the field in the redzone. And I'm not talking about last years stats alone, I'm talking about over the last few seasons combined, because that is the original example you used.

I don't have a sheet in front of me to tell you how many games either player was held to less than 100 yards and no touchdowns. so I don't have any idea. That isn't what constitutes being shut down for me. Being down is doing next to nothing.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #43
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Why does it chap you ass what I think? It should have no affect on you. Your hatred of any opinion that does not match yours is painfully obvious.

you have essentially asked me the same question about 10 different ways. What is your problem with comprehension? It matters to me what they pay him because there are limits to what a team can afford. I would rather have him on my team than not, but not at the cost of losing more players down the road. I am a fan of this TEAM. I'm not bashing ANYONE. I'm stating facts that you don't like to hear. You don't like it when I say he's not physical enough. Too bad. I want this team to succeed, and so I am thinking about what this team can afford right now. If you don't agree, i don't care. It's just my opinion. I gave my opinion. I will always give my opinion. I'm always talking the Saints, though, no matter what it's about or whether anyone agrees or not. Know why? because I give a damn.
That is the whole point. The team can afford him and a whole hell of a lot more. The cap is not an issue. Hell yes I wish he was a freaking physical monster on top of being the pass catching TE perhaps in history. I also want to fart quarters on demand.

The point is that the team can EASILY afford him and much more.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:33 PM   #44
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Decoys have to do with opening up the field in the redzone. And I'm not talking about last years stats alone, I'm talking about over the last few seasons combined, because that is the original example you used.

I don't have a sheet in front of me to tell you how many games either player was held to less than 100 yards and no touchdowns. so I don't have any idea. That isn't what constitutes being shut down for me. Being down is doing next to nothing.
... happened twice. Once when Talib was so physical he injured his foot and the second time when Seattle threw everything to stop him (still on the injured foot) and the rest of the team laid an egg offensively.

I was as pissed off as you, but I at least understood that it wasn't his fault.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:35 PM   #45
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
That is the whole point. The team can afford him and a whole hell of a lot more. The cap is not an issue. Hell yes I wish he was a freaking physical monster on top of being the pass catching TE perhaps in history. I also want to fart quarters on demand.

The point is that the team can EASILY afford him and much more.
They can EASILY afford him? Why did we go to arbitration then? Why do you, oh master of knowledge, believe that these geniuses in the Saints front office, themselves, or challenging this?

I don't care what you think you know. I understand the salary cap, and guaranteed money. I've been a football fan for many years and I have heard all about it over and over again. I don't care if you have more degrees than a thermometer. That just means you owe tuition money. I'm actually quite good with numbers.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:50 PM   #46
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
... happened twice. Once when Talib was so physical he injured his foot and the second time when Seattle threw everything to stop him (still on the injured foot) and the rest of the team laid an egg offensively.

I was as pissed off as you, but I at least understood that it wasn't his fault.
He did nothing against the 49ers, nothing against st. louis, aside from the wide open touchdown against seattle in the regular season, he did nothing the rest of that game and even less in the playoff game against them.

The game against new england we did not lay an egg offensively. We scored 27 points. But yet again, none of this is about blaming the losses on him. It's a break down of his performances. You want to know what I thought of the rest of the team last year? I wanted Moore gone, because he was completely invisible. I've been critical of Toon and his dropsies, Mark Ingram's inconsistencies, Meachem's propensity to hide from sight for weeks at a time.

If you knew anything about me and followed my past posting, you would know what I call it like I see it. I give credit where it is due and critiques where they are warranted.

None of those other players are looking at mega contracts. Jimmy is obviously better than them.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:52 PM   #47
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Decoys have to do with opening up the field in the redzone. And I'm not talking about last years stats alone, I'm talking about over the last few seasons combined, because that is the original example you used.

I don't have a sheet in front of me to tell you how many games either player was held to less than 100 yards and no touchdowns. so I don't have any idea. That isn't what constitutes being shut down for me. Being down is doing next to nothing.
If you have no idea how many times Johnson gets shut down, then how can you make the statement that Calvin Johnson never gets shut down but Jimmy Graham does?

I can understand that you don't have a sheet in front of you. I'll list all the games.

Player A
Week 1 - 4 rec - 37 yds - 0 TD
Week 5 - 3 rec- 25 yds - 0 TDs
Week 12 - 3 rec - 52 yds - 0 TD
Week 13 - 6 rec - 98 yds - 0 TD
Week 14 - 3 rec - 43 yds - 0 TD

Player B
Week 6 - 0 rec - 0 yds - 0TD
Week 9 - 5 rec - 59 yds - 0 TD
Week 10 - 6 rec - 41 yds - 0 TD
Week 15 - 2 rec - 25 yds - 0 TD

Doesn't look like that much of a difference to me.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:52 PM   #48
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
They can EASILY afford him? Why did we go to arbitration then? Why do you, oh master of knowledge, believe that these geniuses in the Saints front office, themselves, or challenging this?

I don't care what you think you know. I understand the salary cap, and guaranteed money. I've been a football fan for many years and I have heard all about it over and over again. I don't care if you have more degrees than a thermometer. That just means you owe tuition money. I'm actually quite good with numbers.
Sorry, no tuition money. Scholarships.

Now, to your question about arbitration. The Saints did not go to arbitration. The Saints simply applied the general franchise tag on Graham to allow for more time to come to a long term deal. The NFL front office, not the Saints, designated the tag as that of a TE. This was an opportunity that the NFLPA (Players Association) had been looking for since their last attempt with the Terrell Suggs designation (DE versus LB). The NFLPA filed a grievance on behalf of Graham and they solely litigated the grievance against the NFL (not the Saints).

And yes, with the rapidly increasing cap the Saints are looking quite comfortable signing anyone they wish. How do you think they signed the top safety free agent on the market?
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:01 AM   #49
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Sorry, no tuition money. Scholarships.

Now, to your question about arbitration. The Saints did not go to arbitration. The Saints simply applied the general franchise tag on Graham to allow for more time to come to a long term deal. The NFL front office, not the Saints, designated the tag as that of a TE. This was an opportunity that the NFLPA (Players Association) had been looking for since their last attempt with the Terrell Suggs designation (DE versus LB). The NFLPA filed a grievance on behalf of Graham and they solely litigated the grievance against the NFL (not the Saints).

And yes, with the rapidly increasing cap the Saints are looking quite comfortable signing anyone they wish. How do you think they signed the top safety free agent on the market?
The signed the top free agent safety after releasing a crap load of players, many of whom were owed far more money than they were ever worth.

And after signing him, look how long this process has taken with jimmy. Your so called argument is ridiculous. "Oh, the nfl said he was a TE". "Jimmy's agent was just appealing the NFL's ruling". The Saints placed the franchise tag on him knowing he was a tight end, and showed up in court to fight for their opinion that he should continue to be considered a tight end. Is that not the Saints actively going to arbitration? They knew this was going to happen the moment they placed the franchise tag on him and were ready to fight any ruling against it. Why? Because they need leverage to be able to bring down his asking price in a long term deal. Why? Because they can't EASILY afford him.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-15-2014, 07:58 AM   #50
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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
The signed the top free agent safety after releasing a crap load of players, many of whom were owed far more money than they were ever worth.

And after signing him, look how long this process has taken with jimmy. Your so called argument is ridiculous. "Oh, the nfl said he was a TE". "Jimmy's agent was just appealing the NFL's ruling". The Saints placed the franchise tag on him knowing he was a tight end, and showed up in court to fight for their opinion that he should continue to be considered a tight end. Is that not the Saints actively going to arbitration? They knew this was going to happen the moment they placed the franchise tag on him and were ready to fight any ruling against it. Why? Because they need leverage to be able to bring down his asking price in a long term deal. Why? Because they can't EASILY afford him.
Just as it is the agent's job to get the player as much as possible, it is the GM's job to pay as little as possible. That is simple business economics. The Saints can easily afford more, by why pay more than necessary? Fans tend to take this whole logical process far too personally. Far more personally, in fact, than do the players and the teams.
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