I am in shock.
 

I wonder who\'s fault it is the defense is so terrible. hhhhmmmmm... That La\'Roi Glover and Sammy Knight and Grady Jackson seem to be doing awfully bad elsewhere. And that Sullivan pick is paying off big time. Let\'s not even mention the great promotion of Venturi to D, coordinator. I wonder who could be responsible for such great decisions.

I am in shock.
 

Me too, but I bet I know you you\'re blaming. ;)

I am in shock.
 

Correct me if I am wrong Whodi, but you asked for something that would make this year different for Haslett. I believe I offered a plausible explanation. So my question to you is this.......

If we go on a tear and get into the playoffs, and subsequently acquit ourselves quite well. Who gets the credit? is it the team or the HC..... or both?

At what point are you willing to admit that the Saints could succeed under Haslett, or are you just hellbent on seeing change, for the sake of change ?

Honestly, ask yourself when you draw that line in the sand, at what point you endorse another year of Haslett. If it\'s never then don\'t waste my ****ing time trying to create a debate to which you have no intention of budging.

My position is clear, if he doesn\'t win out these last two games then I wish he would go (although he probably won\'t) If he does then he gets a wholehearted endorsement from yours truly. So where is your line in the sand?

[Edited on 23/12/2004 by johnnythesaint]

I am in shock.
 

johnny,

I think Haz should go either way, but I thought you made a pretty cogent case for thinking this year looks a little different. Well done.

I agree with the idea that Haz is an \"underdog coach\". His teams have thrived only when they are behind. That is reason to believe for this year, but not reason to keep him. Notice what happens when his teams are ahead, they fold to the Bengals. Haz is a young coach, and he doesn\'t seem to know how to coach winning teams - that is reason to get rid of him even if we make the playoffs this year (as a come from behind/underdog kind of team).

I am in shock.
 

First, I don\'t know what the cause is for the belligerent attitude johnny the \"saint,\" but I won\'t respond in kind. I\'ll just answer your question. I won\'t give Haslett any credit. Period. Do you somehow think 8-8 or 7-9 is good? Do you think the NFC will be this terrible every year so that a 6-8 team has a chance to get into the playoffs? Do you hold Haslett responsible for not making the playoffs the last 4 years? Is being 4-8 then beating two sub par teams in a row enough for you to forget the past four years? What about losing to two winless teams in a row earlier this year? Forgot that? So tell me why I should endorse another year of Haslett ever? Ask yourself, is mediocrity in a poor conference acceptable to you? If it is, we have different expectations of what a winner is and different expectations of the level we expect this team to play at. No need to get an attitude cause Haslett is your guy.

[Edited on 23/12/2004 by saintswhodi]

I am in shock.
 

So a trip to the playoffs does nothing then ?

Well then at least I know where your bread is buttered, and that is fine too, it just isn\'t on the same side as mine thats all. The frustration was because I felt that you were manipulating a thread in which only people who fell into your line were acknowledged by you. Go ahead read the thread again, it seemed like you hung a question out there, then promptly got on some other tangent, thats all. Sorry to be rude, but thanks for getting back so prompt!

I am in shock.
 

Jkool I cannot refute what you say, your argumentation would put me in a box if I followed it properly. However, if we do it this time, if lightning strikes twice, and we shine the rest of the way out, I believe that this would give him a real chance to build on it. This time without the rookie mistakes, and with better assistants, less blind loyalty to any particular players etc.

But if they lose next week or even the final week I firmly support tossing him. That is where I have set the bar.

I am in shock.
 

Sorry to say johnny, but that was WhoDat\'s question. I just piggybacked it. Maybe you should read back. Still no need to get belligerent, but it\'s all good. It has also been answered by others, so I didn\'t feel I had to since they said what I woulda. I guess I should have just repeated what they said.

So to answer this other question, a trip to the playoffs means squat this year. When there are about 3 10-6 AFC teams that won\'t make the playoffs while a sub .500 NFC team could, it makes me sick. That is just wrong on every level. I said weeks ago why would I be proud of this team backsliding into the playoffs? Why would ANOTHER 8-8 record make me forget the mediocrity of the last 4 years? Just cause we get to play teams as crappy as we are to finish the season, does not make us all of a sudden a good team or even competitive. I will say again, all we have done the last 2 weeks is beat the bums we should have been beating the last 4 years. IF we go to the NFC champ game, I\'d give Haslett another year, but I am sure we would be having this same convo again next year cause our schedule would be harder than the cushiony soft one we had this year. Also, I am willing to bet next year Carolina won\'t have so many key players out and will be a lot more competitive, and they have beaten us already this year and we have to beat them. What everyone seems to be forgetting is, WE HAVE NOT MADE THE PLAYOFFS YET. We could win both games but if the Rams win the NFC West, we are out, plain and simple. So while the Haslett bandwagon has grown tremendously after beating two crappy teams, I will stand on the sideline and know there is too much opportunity to screw it up as usual.

I am in shock.
 

..well, if you \"budge\" in a debate, then it\'s not a debate, is it?
...funny how you expect people to \"budge\" to your argument... what about you? Do YOU have the intention of \"budging\"?

..but you are looking at this whole thing as \"Haslett could lead the Saints to the playoffs this year\".... whereas others are looking at it as a more accurate \"this is the same crap we have seen the past 4 years, it just happens that this crap may get you in the playoffs this year\"...

..if you look at the history of the NFL, you can count with one hand how many times an 8-8 team has gone to the playoffs... again, this year there\'s the possibility that a 7-9 team can win a division (Cardinals)... there\'s also the possibility that two 7-9 teams AND one 8-8 team could be in the playoffs... this has nothing to do with good football/coaching, it has to do with mediocrity, coaching caroussels, and plain bad football/coaching...

...what you are doing, you are willing to accept this mediocrity and somehow parlay it into something laudable, i.e., \"Haslett leading the Saints to the playoffs\", whereas the ONLY reason why teh Saints have even a chance to make it at 6-8 is because of this years\' circumstances, and not because the team is any better than last year, or the year before, or the year befoer that..

..what you need to ask yourself is whether you see improvement on this team or not.. is this team better than last year? Than 2 years ago? Than 3 years ago? NO! Look at the records and you\'ll see that there\'s not much change.. .


[Edited on 23/12/2004 by Tobias-Reiper]

I am in shock.
 

I\'ve admitted to being torn over my opinion of Haslett, and even made an argument for keeping him BEFORE we won the last two games. I\'m even more confused, now.

I still have firm doubts about our ability to attract a quality head coach. My doubts increased when we began to see candidates mentioned in our previous arguments (Charlie Weiss to Notre Dame, Nick Saban now possibly to Miami, others) taking jobs elsewhere. Granted, it appears Haslett will stay regardless, and thereby we never publicly interviewed anyone. I simply wonder if there\'s a savior to be found out there who\'ll (most importantly) be WILLING to take a chance on our troubled organization.

Adding to my confusion is the apparent turnaround (at least for the last two games). Something seems to have finally clicked, and if the trend can continue (we make the playoffs, actually perform well there, etc.) I\'d be hesitant to call for Haslett\'s head if it appears he may have finally gotten it together. This is not to say I\'m convinced it will happen, or even that I expect it, only that I\'m willing to entertain the possibility.

Then there\'s our record. 8-8 being the best possibility in an NFC probably lousier than I\'ve ever seen it. Indeed, this is not encouraging. Neither is our professed \"turnaround,\" having begun with wins over two losing teams. Perhaps a win over Atlanta this weekend would make things a bit more convincing, but even a victory over them could be considered \"skewed\" if the Falcons don\'t have their two biggest offensive stars.

In closing, and as I\'ve said before, I\'d really like to see Haslett succeed. He\'s a young head coach, one we could potentially reap many good years from if he simply shows some reason to keep him. I\'ll support him if this recent \"turnaround\" proves legitimate, and I suppose we\'ll have no choice but to TRY and support him next year regardless.

But hey, the Red Sox DID win the World Series this year, maybe the planets are aligned for curse breaking! ;)