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I just don't inderstand

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Billy, point taken with respect to simply arguing a coach sucks on the grounds that he is not meeting certain fans\' timetables. However, good arguments have been presented, and they need to be considered. I don\'t understand why you\'d participate ...

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Old 01-09-2005, 12:29 PM   #21
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I just don't inderstand

Billy, point taken with respect to simply arguing a coach sucks on the grounds that he is not meeting certain fans\' timetables. However, good arguments have been presented, and they need to be considered.

I don\'t understand why you\'d participate on a fan page IF you think the only people who have anything to say are the coaches, owners, and players. Why bother with us?

Also, I don\'t think Benson\'s opinion is the only one that maters. That is like saying a CEO shouldn\'t listen to his senior staff or his customers! Yikes. That would be a sucky CEO.

Benson can get wrapped up in a personal timetable just as easily as fans. He can get just as confused by personal biases as the next guy. I don\'t see why you\'d think what he thinks matters so much?

As for Shannahan and Holmgren - yes, they are good coaches, but even good coaches can get in a rut and need a change of sceenery.

Don\'t take this the wrong way, since I often agree with you and I enjoy your posts (more than most it would seem), but I think you\'re letting yourself get sucked into something here on terms you wouldn\'t normally agree to.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:51 PM   #22
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I just don't inderstand

Jkool--

It\'s not that I think folks are wrong for wanting Haslett gone. Not at all.

It\'s that they refuse to be \"open\" to the notion that coaching might not be the problem. Maybe some of the personnel decisions weren\'t Hasletts. That sure seems to be a distinct possibility.

The bottom line is there could be things going on higher up in the organization that have caused problems.

And none of us really know what\'s been going on.

I don\'t like being told that firing Haslett is the only option that\'s going to work.

And I don\'t like close minded folks. There\'s no debating those guys.

They get a majority of folks who believe one way and it\'s pretty much closed for discussion!!!

I think you know how some folks on here will try to conience folks of anything.

Like... Haslett can\'t win in December. There was a majority on here trying to convience me of that too. And I couldn\'t prove them wrong then. But nevertheless it was silly!!
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Old 01-09-2005, 04:01 PM   #23
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I just don't inderstand

Fans let their emotions get in the way of their better judgement a lot of times.
I can think of one off the top of my head - a few others who let the pride of 4 wins at the end of another mediocre season overrule any sense of the bigger picture.

fans think they know more about the inner-workings of a football team than what they do.
Nobody suggested that. I don\'t care if every player loves Jim Haslett. I know what I\'ve seen 16 weeks a year for the last 4, and that\'s not a good team. Joe Horn was outraged last year when his position coach was let go, wasn\'t he? Was his season this year better or worse than last year\'s? How about the defensive line - were they better or worse when a better coach was brought in?

I\'ll take my cues from the folks who actually play and coach.
You\'ve done that a few times before if I remember correctly. How has that worked out for you? I believe their propoganda prompted you to suggest that they would be 12-4 last year, with a top ten offense and a defense that got close to the top ten or even finished the season in the top ten.

Your logic is so circular. It\'s not Haslett\'s fault, it\'s the players. Those darn players (that Haslett brought in here, but nevermind that) just don\'t know what they\'re doing, or how to win, or whatever. But you know what, when it comes to this team, I\'m going to listen to those players! Did you listen to Enron executives too, b/c they knew more about what was going on than the average investor... right?

Second -- Some of you guys have your own personal timetable for certain things to happen and when they\'re not met... it\'s hey, lets fire eveyone and start over. And you could be right. On the other hand, that might not be in the best interest of the team right now.
Personal timetable? You\'re damn right. I wanted to see this team start winning two years ago. I want change now, b/c the sooner the change is made, the sooner I can rekindle hope for something better than 8-8 and one game out of the playoffs. I guess I\'m just greedy... PS - can you name another active NFL head coach who hasn\'t made the playoffs in 4 years? You can\'t, b/c THERE AREN\'T ANY.

It\'s always BLAME THE COACH with some of you guys. You guys give all the credit to the coach when a team has a good season.
Well which is it? Do \"some of us\" always blame the coach, or the quarterback? It\'s the players? There have probably been 200 players to come and go in New Orleans over the last 5 years, and the team is still generally regarded as one of the most talented in the NFC, but they can\'t make the playoffs. You\'re right, Loomis and the Muellers brought in a bunch of bums, Haslett had no input on any of them, and he calls all the right plays every week, his team just doesn\'t execute.... oh, and it\'s not his responsibility to ensure that they execute properly either - that\'s not what head coaches do. Right.

You\'re still missing the point. I don\'t care if it\'s Haslett\'s fault or not. I personally think he deserves a decent amount of the fault and has to assume even more of it for not fixing other problems. Regardless, this team is mired in mediocrity - they remain undisciplined underachievers, wasting away talent with holes at the same positions that existed 4 and 5 years ago. That\'s not progress. Name one sign of progress on this team. The offense ranked in the top ten Haslett\'s first couple of years - this year was the worst during his tenure. The defense was nasty when he got here and led the league in stats like sacks and take-aways. This year they were dead last. Most importantly, year one - 10 wins, 2 playoff games, one playoff win. Last four years - no more than 9 wins, 0 playoff appearances. It\'s time for a change.

But when that same coach has a bad season. IT\'S NEVER THE COACHES FAULT!!!

Mike Holmgren led the Packers to TWO SUPERBOWLS. According to you guys, that makes Holmgren a GREAT coach.

Yet, in Seattle Holmgren can\'t win ONE SINGLE playoff game.
Sure it is. Who is saying it\'s not the coaches fault? I said Holmgren and Shannahan both deserve to get the boot. If they get slightly more slack, it\'s only b/c they\'ve proven they can win it all in the past, but I think both need to go. As did Wannstadt, probably two years ago, and Butchie up in Cleveland, and Ericson.

You keep generalizing, but you never point to any specific comments or name names, do you?

It\'s because their owners are smarter than a lot of KNOW IT ALL FANSs who THINK they know the best way to run a football team!
Really? Are fans happy in Seattle? In Denver? In New Orleans? Who are those owners\' customers? Who do they serve? The FANS!!! If the fans aren\'t happy the owners are failing. PS - Seattle and Denver both played in the playoffs this year - maybe that\'s why their coaches will be back.

And I don\'t like close minded folks. There\'s no debating those guys.

They get a majority of folks who believe one way and it\'s pretty much closed for discussion!!!
Nobody is closed minded. All \"some fans\" ask for is proof. Faith is fine sometimes, but at some point you just have to prove it - to put your money where your mouth is. Haslett has only proven he CAN\'T get it done in the last 4 years. He\'s had 64 games to prove he can win - and he is exactly 32-32.



I don\'t understand how you can expect so little. If you bought a stock at 50, and it immediately dropped to 35, would you keep it? Maybe, if you believed it would rebound, that\'s not crazy. Especially if you listened to the CEO and other executives who laid out a good business plan for the company. But if 4 years later the company had tried 3 different business plans, and the stock was still exactly at 35, would you still hang on to it, or just cut your losses and look for a better investment? Most people I know would put there money somewhere else.


JKool - great post. You\'re right on.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:24 PM   #24
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I just don't inderstand

You\'re still missing the point. I don\'t care if it\'s Haslett\'s fault or not.

Do you hear that folks?

WhoDat doesn\'t care if Haslett\'s fault or not. WhoDat just wants Haslett gone and the hell with everything else.

Sorry, Whodat, that\'s just not good enough for me.

At least you admitted it, though.

There\'s really no use in debating your personal likes or dislikes. Huh??

And as far as Jake goes..

Hmmm.. Well, Jake had one of the best defenses in the NFL, a probowl reciever, a running back (Goings) who rushed for over 100-yards in every game except one.

Yet Jake could only muster 7 wins. Count \'em --- 1-2-3-4-5-6-7!!

Jake had everything he needed and couldn\'t get it done. His leadership didn\'t mean a thing --- BABY!!

It\'s hard for me to listen to WhoDat very much and put a lot of stock in it.

He\'s the same guy who tried to tell me that penalties did NOT kill drives !! How can you take things like that serious?

Now, he\'s the same guy who\'s telling me Haslett needs to go whether its his fault or not.

Instead of changing one of the cooridinators, he just wants Haslett gone. The hell with everything else. You heard WhoDat say it.

He\'s also the one who wanted the Saints to lose out the rest of the games.

How can you take him seriously?

He also said a while back that Donte\' was a bust and should be cut!!

He also wanted to cut Jay Bellamy!!

As a matter of fact, WhoDat has criticised every player on the team except for Deuce, Howard, and Grant.

WhoDat has never seen a potential cut he didn\'t like.

Seriously folks, how can you take that stuff seriously.

Coahing is VERY IMPORTANT. But it takes much more than coaching.

It starts with the front office making a commitment to win. I haven\'t seen that out of our front office.

We need to spend more $$$ in free-agency.

Now if you listen to WhoDat -- he\'ll lead you to believe Haslett doesn\'t want to go after some of the big name free agents.

According to WhoDat, Jim Haslett needs to go whether its his fault or not.

Don\'t make me take you out behind the woodshed again WhoDat!!
If it were up to



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Old 01-09-2005, 05:56 PM   #25
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I just don't inderstand

That\'s right Billy - Haslett should go. It IS Haslett\'s fault, but as I told Saintfan last year during the \"bad luck\" excuse debate, it really doesn\'t matter at this point. The guy isn\'t getting it done and it\'s time to go.

Here\'s what I find interesting. With Jake it\'s about wins b/c his stats are better. With Brooks, in the past, wins were irrelevant. It was about yards and TDs when his QB rating sucked. When his yards and TDs were down, you made it about his QB rating, which had been irrelevant the year before. And with Brooks, it\'s never been about wins and losses - it\'s a TEAM game, remember? But now, with Jake, it\'s about wins. LOL. You\'re about as consistent as the Saints.

Hmmm.. Well, Jake had one of the best defenses in the NFL, a probowl reciever, a running back (Goings) who rushed for over 100-yards in every game except one.
They ranked 20th in total defense. TWENTIETH. Brooks hasn\'t had a Pro Bowl WR for 4 years in Horn or a much much better RB in Deuce, who rushed for 100+ in 9 straight games last year? Sure Billy - bottom line - Jake was a better QB this year in only his second year as a starter and in a new system than Brooks was after 4.5 years as a starter and 5 years in the system.

He\'s the same guy who tried to tell me that penalties did NOT kill drives !! How can you take things like that serious?
Typical misquotes - you know why you do that, b/c you can\'t find a complete quote of mine in context to prove anything. Shall I remind you that in that same debate you suggested that penalties hurt more than turnovers? Shall I just go get a quote to prove it?

Instead of changing one of the cooridinators, he just wants Haslett gone. The hell with everything else. You heard WhoDat say it.
Again, you just plain change my statements to try your best not to look foolish. I want them all gone - Loomis, Haslett, Venturi, and possibly McCarthy. Mike is the only guy who I think deserves further consideration.

He also said a while back that Donte\' was a bust and should be cut!!
Absolutely false. If anything, I\'ve said Stallworth\'s play needs to improve but under no circumstances should he be cut. But if I\'m wrong, find a quote and prove it. I dare you.

Coahing is VERY IMPORTANT.
Really Billy, last week you said:

To me... coaching is way overrated.
and earlier this season you said:

As optimistic as I am, I have little faith in this team until Haslett and co. are fired.

I hope I\'m proved wrong, but after all these years of watching the same problems over and over, I\'ve had enough.
and before the season you said:

So, there\'s plenty of room for improvement. The bad news is we are depending on Venturi and Haslett for those improvement. Not good.
and after last season you said:

WhoDat and myself often get in some spirited debates on a variety of topics. Neither one of us usually concede too much in our beliefs and a lot of the things we argue about can\'t be proven until enough time has passed to have sufficient evidence.

Well, one of the things WhoDat told me last year is that Haslett was a major problem and because of that he didn\'t have a lot of faith in the 2003 season. I agrued and argued with WhoDat that he was wrong. And this went on for a while.

Now, I must be a man and admit the one that was wrong was ME.

And you have the gaul to ask people how they can listen to me? Hang on BnGers... waint ten minutes and Billy\'s opinion will change again. By early next season he\'ll have Haslett pegged for coach of the year and suggested that he was always right about the guy. It\'s not hard to be able to say you\'re right when you take EVERY stance on something. LOL

We need to spend more $$$ in free-agency.

Now if you listen to WhoDat -- he\'ll lead you to believe Haslett doesn\'t want to go after some of the big name free agents.
LMAO!!! You\'ve argued with me about the draft and FA EVERY YEAR. After the Saints signed Orlando Ruff and Tebucky Jones in FA and drafted Sullivan you said this team would be a top ten defense!! Now you want to criticize my analysis? That\'s truly laughable.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:13 PM   #26
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I just don't inderstand

:whip:
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:20 PM   #27
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I just don't inderstand

WhoDat--

Deny it if you want, but you specifically said penalties are not drive killers. There\'s plenty of folks here who will back me up on that!!

I don\'t blame Jake for the Panthers not making the playoffs. And I don\'t blame John Fox either. Unlike YOU, who blames everything on the QB and Coach.

And you blame the Panthers 20th ranked defense for their shortcoming? The Saints defense has never ranked as high as 20th!!

Brooks had a subpar season due in large part to a awful offensive line and no running game. And then there were the league high penalties our offensive line commited.

You don\'t think the increase in Brooks\' interceptions were largely due to having no time to throw? i.e. (poor blocking by the offensive line)

Brooks put up probowl numbers last year. 24TDs and only 7ints. And has put up good numbers every year. Even this year Brooks numbers weren\'t bad and he\'s not the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs.

You or anyone else will ever pull the wool over my eyes..

But, by all means, keep on trying!!

Brooks was partly right... He\'s played on bad teams!!!

This year he played behind the WORST offensive line in the league!!

I want to retool the offensive line WhoDat. How \'bout you??

Oh, and I told you last year our offensive line sucked at pass blocking. And they did!!

You have blamed Brooks for the poor play of the offensive line. And even blamed Brooks lack of leadership for the penalties by the O-line.

You see a pattern there, WhoDat? You blame everything on Brooks.

Penalites -- Lack of leadership from Brooks.

Dropped passes -- Brooks fault for leading the recievers into defenders.

Poor Blocking -- Brooks makes the O-line look worse then what they actually are!!

Poor Defense -- Brooks fault for not putting together drives!!

But, hey, WhoDat, let\'s cut Brooks!! That\'s the answer!!

If I listed all the guys you wanted to cut, we\'d only have 3 players left on this team.

You do see a pattern in your posts, right?

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Old 01-09-2005, 06:24 PM   #28
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I just don't inderstand

And you blame the Panthers 20th ranked defense for their shortcoming? The Saints defense has never ranked as high as 20th!!
Actually the Saints were 18th in the league last year. Something like 7th or 8th against the pass.

Brooks put up probowl numbers last year. 24TDs and only 7ints.
Actually it was 8 INTs and lest we forget the 14 fumbles and leading the league in turnovers. Just straightening out your \"facts.\"
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:30 PM   #29
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I just don't inderstand

Actually it was 8 INTs and lest we forget the 14 fumbles and leading the league in turnovers. Just straightening out your \"facts.\"
Actually Brooks didn\'t lead the NFL in turnovers. The QB for the Panthers had more last year.

Thanks for trying to straighten out the facts. Hey, at least you tried and I give you credit for that.

Thanks a bunch... :P
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Old 01-09-2005, 06:44 PM   #30
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I just don't inderstand

Correct. 22 turnovers and a Superbowl trip for that guy in Carolina. 19 turnovers and bubkus for that guy in New Orleans last year. I have a hard time deciding whose hurt their team more. I stand corrected.
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