Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Yea he\'s gone..but i think we are ok at DE

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Notice how it says in there the Saints CAN use the franchise tag on him again, but he doesn\'t THINK they will. Notice everyone says sign and trade. Now if you franchise him, then agree to a trade, he is no longer with the team right, and you have traded him like people have been suggesting right? Come on man. It\'s an idea that has merit and IS quite possible. So your suggestion is to let a talented player like Howard walk with no compensation? I find that harder to believe.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

It\'s not my suggestion..i didn\'t write the story..

But..the only options otherwise are to

1 pay him a huge amount..including signing bonus..and let them continue to have a 3 man rotation..which I would love..but..they can\'t afford it I fear..

2. pay him a huge signing bonus, and trade him away...

Nah..he\'s gone..

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

You do know if you franchise a player it has nothing to do with a signing bonus right? It has to do with salary, strictly. Buffalo did the exact thing with Peerless Price when they traded him to Atlanta. They franchised him then traded him. We can do the same. I would love for him to stay too but if we keep him, Grant will be gone when his contract is up. Franchising him and trading him is out best option to get something in return. And there is no signing bonus associated with that. Understand now?

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

what about the Den/Wash deal last year? could we trade him and he work out comp. with his new team?Not being sarcastic...i am asking.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

It depends on who would want him..and why..He has been injury plauged..and his numbers have gone down..He\'s still a good player..and he\'s young..I doubt that another team would be so desperate though.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

You honestly think he will sign another contract without a signing bonus?..really?..

You think his agent and he would go for that?

Would Benson tell him..\'\'I am really in need of your help Darren..let us sign you ..so we can trade you off..and..no signing bonus..is that ok?..because we can\'t afford to pay you your bonus..and that of the new additon we will get for you..\'\'

yeah..thats possible..haha

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Okay, I am trying real hard to not be condescending but you obviously don\'t understand the franchise tag. SO let me explain it. You didn\'t know you could tag a player more than once, and you can. Also, the franchise tag is basically a guarantee, it is not a contract. Nothing is signed unless the player signs that one year tender like Howard did last year. All the franchise tag does is prevent other teams from going after your unrestricted free agent without working out compensation for you should you choose to let that player sign with that team. Hence the term franchise \"tag.\" It is not a franchise \"contract.\" It is not up to a player or agent if the team is \"allowed\" to put a tag on the player, the team can do it if they wants. That player does not have to sign the franchise offer, and the team loses its tag for a year. That\'s how it works. Now does this help you understand? If you like, I can google the franchise rules and let you read them. I tried to condense it so you could get a better understanding. I just noticed everything you were sayign showed you didn\'t understand the tag and how it worked. I hope this was helpful.

[Edited on 14/1/2005 by saintswhodi]

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

haha

ok..first off..you must understand there are different kind of Franchise tags..exclusive..and non exclusive...Howard was a non exclusive tag...which means he recieved the minimum of the average of the top 5 players in his position..or a 20 % salary increase...whichever is greater...he retains the right to negotiate with other clubs...now..the saints could..match the offer and retain him..or recieve 2 first round draft picks in compensation...if the original club chooses not to match...

when I said you can\'t tag them twice..that\'s not untrue, but it is situational..

Each club is permitted one franchise designation in any year of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. If a franchise player signs a multiyear contract with his current club between Feb. 25 and March 17 at 4:00 p.m. ET, the club retains its franchise player designation for the following league year. After March 17, if the player signs a multiyear contract while under this designation, the club exhausts its franchise player rights for each year of that contract unless it matched another club\'s offer for that player, in which case the designation is used only for that year. Any club that elected not to use its franchise player designation in 2004 retains franchise designation rights for 2005 and subsequent years of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, provided the club did not exhaust those rights from a previously signed franchise player.

We could go back and forth all day..but..the fact that they aren\'t going to franchise and trade him should be clear enough...why wouldn\'t they sign another top tier free agent..and do the same...?

I don\'t see how franchising a player makes him more attractive to another team..who has a cap like all the other teams..but..whatever

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Ok, first you say they can\'t do it twice, and you were wrong. But that\'s cool. Then you say we wouldn\'t sign him and give him a bonus and then try to trade him, which was wrong also. Not it is, we just aren\'t gonna do it? Okay. Now that is funny. You can\'t franchise another team\'s free agent. If I have to explain that, we really shouldn\'t go on. He is an unrestricted free agent from the Saints. They are the only team that can apply a franchise ot transition tag on him. Second, if they sign a top tier free agent, he will have a multi-year contract with a signing bonus. Hello. HUGE difference. Number 3, once you get compensation for said player, the other team can negotiate his salary. The franchise tag GUARANTEES a player a certain amount under the franchise designation. But if he is traded and compensation gained for the franchsing team, the team he was traded too works out a contract with that player and it doesn\'t have to be for the amount a franchise tag would be. Again, LIKE BUFFALO DID WITH PEERLESS PRICE WHEN THEY TRADED HIM TO ATLANTA. If a team wants a player that is franchised, and they give the opposing team what they want, they then negotiate a salary. I didn\'t know it was this hard to understand, or maybe you are just being difficult. You do also know different teams have different amounts of spce under the cap right? So a team with more cap money than us may want to take a shot on Howard. Damn dude. So every team has the same CAP LIMIT, but teams have different amounts of room UNDER THE CAP to spend.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Your right..we will franchise him..and trade him away...what was I thinking?

Howard more or less said they wouldn\'t

The F.O. said more or less they couldn\'t

You can slap an imaginary tag on whatever or whomever you think would make this scenario swing to your view..but.. the simple fact is...The only cap we have to worry about is our own..and we have an owner that screams poverty...and the story told me..both sides were realizing the money issue is a hurdle to great to get over...

Signing Price to a long-term deal is Donahoe\'s stated purpose but the man who swung the unlikely trade for quarterback Drew Bledsoe last year isn\'t exactly predictable. The juicy speculation has Donahoe signing Price, then trading him to a team out of Buffalo\'s division, perhaps recouping the first-round pick he gave up for Bledsoe. Pull that trick off and Copperfield\'s out of a job.

It isn\'t something that happens every year...And..it takes one heck of a GM to pull something like that off..

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/02/21/wwwben4b21.html


[Edited on 14/1/2005 by shadowdrinker]

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

You are right, it doesn\'t happen every year, but it is better than letting Howard walk for nothing. You don\'t have to get two firsts, Buffalo didn\'t for Price. You can negotiate whatever compensation both teams agree to. There are very few rusher in the draft or free agency with Howard\'s skill. They said Kearse was injury prone too. Looks like he played a whole year in Philly to me, no injuries. A team will see that, a player at his same position, and it can work. Be skeptical if you like. You don\'t see him doing it, I don\'t see them letting him walk for nothing if they aren\'t gonna keep him.

Last explanation. Just cause you tag someone, it doesn\'t count immediately against your cap. They have to sign the offer first. So just cause he is tagged none of that money has to count against our cap, unless we get stuck into signing him. I am pretty certain they will have some semblence of a deal worked out with another team before they actually tag him though. It just makes too much sense. Letting him walk for nothing doesn\'t.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

So just cause he is tagged none of that money has to count against our cap, unless we get stuck into signing him.


Exactly...The Price deal was different..It was widely known that Atlanta wanted Price..and wanted him bad...The Franchise tag was simply a tool used to hasten the deal...Luckily..for Buffalo..Atlanta bought it..and now they suffer from the misdealings..

I mean..Yor right..it could happen..but ..You could survive a plane crash too ..I just wouldn\'t suggest trying to do so

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

I would think that the Saints could tag him in hopes of trading him and if they can\'t and don\'t want to sign him, then they\'ll just cut him. I believe they could do it this way, but I\'m not sure on the timing.

The other thing is: if they do work out a trade for him, their contract can be signed stipulating that he will be traded and avoid having a signing bonus. The new team would be left to deal with him on a new contract or face a hold out. That\'s where he\'d get his signing bonus.

I don\'t know any of this for sure, but the last couple of years this has happened. Falcons got Price. Saints got Jones.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

They franchised him last year..and have yet to go ahead and make the long term deal..which is what ultimately..will spell his departure

they paid him..6 million or more for last year..failing to resign him means..they will likely have to franchise him again..and he and his agent will take them to the bank...

Now..if you put a deal on the table..franchise him..and try to trade him away...you stand the chance of..bieng stuck paying him top dollar..or..pulling the tag..letting him go..and getting nothing in return...and it\'s too big of a risk for most teams to even fathom trying...It\'s too one sided..all or nothing..what would you do?

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

I don\'t think it\'s risky. It\'s like this...

I franchise him and try to work a trade. I\'m guessing that NFL rules would say I have to sign him or trade him by June 1. If I can\'t trade him and I don\'t want to pay the huge contract, then I cut him prior to June 1. (I think that is within the rules.) Thus, I did everything I could to get something for him - it just didn\'t happen and he left without my team getting compensation.

That all seems preferable to not franchising him by the feb. deadline and just letting him walk. That way I have kept my options open.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Options are something Howard has as well..We don\'t own any rights to him...Even if we signed him and tried to trade him..he doesn\'t have to comply..(Owens)

Too big a risk to even attempt in my opinion..

I hate to let him go for nothing too..

Loomis and Co. should have signed him...He still may yet decide to come back and play for us...But..As the Story implied..he is going to want huge money...And one team or another has to pay it..whether it be some form of Incentive based deal or whatever...Ultimately..unless a team is jumping through thier a**es to get this guy..franchising him would only hurt trade value, and make it even harder to ttrade him away..unless your happy with a 4th round pick..or something like that

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

I think we need to keep him. Something should be done to keep him... Frees up Smith to roam to other positions and blitz. Smith is not a run stopper, blitzing is his specialty.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

It\'s not all or nothing here guys. You can use the Franchise Tag or the Transition Tag, which requires lesser compensation. Likewise, you can use the Franchise and then back off of the two first round picks, like Buffalo did with Price and Atlanta.

I would like to see the Saints keep Howard if they can. I didn\'t think Howard had a monster year this year, but he still managed to have more sacks then Grant, and I thought Grant was a monster. Plus, Howard was splitting time with Smith and often rushing from the inside instead of the edge. This guy sure seems premier to me, and I want to keep him. I don\'t know if it\'s possible, but I hope so.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Owens wasn\'t franchised shadow so this is a COMPLETELY different situation. He had a clause in his contract where he could opt out and he did. The 49ers fought it saying his agent didn\'t do file it in time and tried to trade him to Baltimore. It backfired cause the league sided with Owens and he was free to go elsewhere. San Fran fearing they would get nothing agreed to let him be traded to the Eagles for Brandon Whiting? huh Does that sound like a deal they would make if their hand wasn\'t forced? Aslo they were in a cost cutting mode and let Garcia roll too. So this situation is completely different and if Howard was tagged he could not refuse the tag or to be traded. He would have to sit out and whatever compensation the opposing team gave for him would be returned to them. I am not trying to argue with you, just making sure you can see hwo different the situation is. The only situation that is even comparable is the Buffalo Atlanta deal for Price.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Ok..answer me this..is Howard Franchised?..no...is he signed?..no...

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

One, the free agent period isn\'t until March so why would they franchise him now if A), they are trying to work out a deal to keep him or B) they are trying to get together a deal to franchise him. The NFL playoffs are still going on man. How do they know the Rams wouldn\'t want him or the vikes or the Jets if they lose Abraham or anyone? NO free agent is being signed or tagged until after the Superbowl. Come on man, you know better than that. You are a very bright guy but I think you are being overly difficult for no reason. Noone said any of this was 100% gonna happen, we said it is a scenario we would like to see, and like I have shown you is very possible. Just stop being difficult man, it\'s unnecessary.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

your right bro..I am bieng difficult...I read the views that swing the other way from my own..and..yes...it\'s true...we could do something as far as trading him goes... and get some big time signings, and all that,

I just can\'t force it in my head that it will happen...

I feel like a dog that has been beaten too many times..and can\'t seem to trust anyone who is involved with the franchise...only thing I have seen them do..is screw up chance after chance to make some positive changes...and leave me, with my tail between my legs,wondering why the franchise continues to beat down thier faithful pup, and why year after year, i show my belly..knowing what is coming...

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Since we\'re discussing all of this and it is bound to come up several more times, here is a great article about how the franchise player system works. It is based on last year, but to my knowledge there have been no changes to the rules - probably only the dates may change.

http://www.nfl.com/freeagency

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Bro, I am with you. We are ALL like whipped dogs. We have those that accept the status quo for fear of getting worse, those that know that only complete failure will bring change, and those that are eternally optimistic everything will just simply click for this franchise one day. I have used the kicked dog analogy before to describe myself as a Saints fan so I feel what you are saying. But maybe, just maybe, just this once, they will do something right and smart. Maybe, even if it just gtes us a second round pick this year and next, they won\'t let Howard walk for nothing. Maybe just maybe, they have targeted free agents they will pursue when they can, and they will be impact players. History says it is unlikely, and I was going down the road of just negative negative negative about this franchise, but I can\'t anymore. I criticize what is, not what I think they will or won\'t do. I criticize Brooks cause I know what he can and can\'t do. Same with Haz, Venturi, and McCarthy. I criticize Benson cause I know he is a greedy snake blackmailing the city. But what I don\'t know is that we will totally gaffe up free agency and the draft yet again. After 6 years they have to get better at it right? Well, off my soapbox. Just meant I understand where you are coming from, and you have every right to feel that way. Peace.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

If you\'re worried about Loomis screwing things up, then worry about him not franchising Howard. That is the only way we will either keep him or get some form of compensation for him. I doubt we\'ll re-sign him prior to the deadline for franchising players so it\'s the only option.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Truly. The only way we can get anything in return is to franchise him. If we just wanna keep him, we can apply the transition tag and match any offer. But I am pretty sure we can\'t afford that cause a team with lots of cap room could just pay him through the nose and make it impossible for us to match. I thought we still get some type of compensation for that though? I could be wrong.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

i believe they put the transition tag on him which i think means they can match any offer from another team but if they dont they get compensation. to me to get compensation would be the best idea if we have to loose them

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Better use the franchise tag them unless we just are intent on keeping him. Top 10 salaries sounds better than top 5 though. But 120% of last year\'s salary would be a lot.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

This is too confusing....which is why Loomey toon will just cut him!

:iamwst:

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

a good thread here... if only we could do some general managing and let loomy just do the cap/contract aspect.

i do think getting something at all rather than letting him walk away should be a priority. this being so evident is what has me scared with the current management tho.

anyhoo, my fantasy trade i mentioned to some derision is to franchise him and trade to SD. foley had 10 sacks then no one more than 4. some draft predictions have them going for a DE in the first round. they have 2 first round picks and 2 QBs for those looking for an AB replacement. i think howard as a proven commodity would be better than whatever their low (2nd) first round pick ends up as. hell, a 2nd or 3rd rounder ala McKenzie is better than nothing. their dilema at QB is similar as far as cap money goes except that they want (and can afford) brees for another year before deciding on him or rivers.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

If the Chargers went for that, i\'d cry until the season started. Howard for Brees or one of their firsts? Not likely, but holy crap. With the money Brees is gonna make when they franchise him, why not Howard and Brooks for Brees and a first? Two birds with one stone. Again, not likely but it\'s fun to dream.

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

Yes Brees had a good year this year, but i am still concerned about him. i think it would be a wash, between him and Ab....so i would do tha trade to get another 1st rdr and trade both our 1st rdrs to get DJ

:notnice:

Darren Howard, and why he won't be a Saint next year
 

cantr we put a tag on him that if he is signed by another team we get draft picks. im 99% we can. if we cant sing him i\'d put that tag on him. just as good as a trade