WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Everyone has his own opinion about Aaron Brooks and this is quite obviously one of the hottest topics on this board. Apparently, Saintfan and I represent the two most opposing views on Aaron. So I suggest that Saintfan and I sound off and each express our opinion about Brooks. Then everyone can at least hear some of the most fervent opinions on both sides of the fence about the Saints starting quarterback.

Now, I do want this to stay clean, so I will suggest some ground rules. I do not know Saintfan as a person, but I am sure he is a bright guy. While I disagree with his opinions about Brooks, I agree with other things he has said, and the bottom line here is that we're all Saints fans.

So, Saintfan, I guarantee that I will not take potshots at your character or at you as a person. Your opinion is just as valid as mine and I want us to be able to debate without attacking one another. Second, let's keep everyone other than Brooks out of this discussion. Other Saints, coaches, back up quarterback, media men, mickey mouse, every other person in the world. This is about Brooks. Let's talk about what we feel he can and cannot do. What do you say?

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Agreed, so I guess I\'ll start, but not by listing all Aaron\'s attibutes, but by pleading with the general public to cut this guy some slack. Brooks is not the end all -- save all -- best QB that ever played the game. He has a tendancy to backpedal in the pocket and at times he has forced the ball, this much I\'ll agree on. But is this really about what Brooks cannot do? I\'m trying to think of something he just can\'t do, and I\'m not sure it\'s finding me. I think the reason the Saints got him in the first place is because in Brooks they see a guy who can do most anything. No, he\'s not the best scrambler, doesn\'t throw the best deep ball, and perhaps he should work on his touch pass, but for heaven\'s sake the man is 26 years old, and no one in the Saints organization felt he\'d be the #1 statistical guy in the league after two years or ever I\'m guessing. The man has unlimited potential, and it would be yet another stupid move by the Saints organization if they give up on him before he\'s had a chance to realize it. It doesn\'t take the number one statistical QB to win the superbowl. It takes a QB that can guide his team down the field and score. It takes a QB that doesn\'t make dumb mistakes play after play. Personally, I\'ve seen tons of improvement in Brooks from his first year here to this past season, and I can\'t believe I\'m the only one. Folks wanna Blame the December swoon on Brooks. I\'ll take this oppurtunity to remide everyone that Aaron threw ONE, count \'em, ONE interception in December, and that was a deflected ball.

I agreed to keep it strickty Brooks and I\'ll do that, but no post on this board in response to questioning AB would be complete without stating that, in my humble opinion, lots of people are down on the man based on external factors that were/are out of his control.

If anyone is interested in reading old posts feel free. You\'ll probalby get a nice laugh at myself, whodat, gatorman, and saintz08. We\'ve had some fun the last two days. And oh, the peace offering is recognized and accepted whodat. You just bought yourself a seat at the beer table, and I\'m buying the first round even tho I couldn\'t disagree with you more.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Glad we could finally get off each other\'s back Saintfan... but I\'m still smarter! ;) Just kidding.

Ok, let me say that again, we agree. This particular organization, and the one that existed when Randy was still around, is one of the better ones that Benson has put together. They are much better judges of talent than we\'ve had here in the past. They never would have brought in a guy like Brooks if they didn\'t see potential.

I concur that when you look at Brooks\' 6-4 200+ pound frame, his strong arm, and his athleticism it is hard not to think this guy has it all. The problem is that, as you well know, quarterbacking is about a lot more than physical talent. In fact, I think you will agree that many of the great quarterbacks weren\'t necessarily the biggest, fastest, strongest, or most athletic of their time.

Herein lies my problems with Brooks. The other things that I don\'t think he has. Sure, he\'ll never be a nobody in this league b/c he has too much physical talent. And you may well be right that he will one day be a super star. One of my problems is that I don\'t think that day will come fast enough for the Saints. He seems to be developing too slowly.

Then there\'s another thing. I don\'t believe that Brooks is well suited for the \"west coast\" offense, which the Saints claim to be running. You said yourself that it doesn\'t always take the best QB to go to the Super Bowl, it takes one that can efficiently and effectively manage the game. I do not think Brooks manages the game well. I do not think he is very efficient. If you would like to hear my reasoning I would be happy to explain. In the meantime, suffice it to say that there are other QBs out there (especially one whose name I promised not to mention, but you know who I\'m thinking about) that can probably manage the game better than Brooks.

Now, I\'m not sure that I would support the Saints if they tried to get rid of Brooks... I guess it would depend on the situation. However, I think that a good \"field general\" (including He Who Cannot Be Mentioned ;) could make this team a contender right now, today. Even with their terrible defense, which I agree is a much much bigger problem than the QB of this team. Brooks needs time to develop and I\'m not sure that is something this league allows for very well.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Sorry, sorry... let me just add one other thing that came to my mind. I believe that part of the reason we disagree so strongly on this particular point is because of ideological differences.

Certainly I think that a team should constantly look to build upon and improve its infrastructure if you will - it\'s collection of talent - through the draft and free agency. However, I think the way Super Bowl teams come about has changed drastically in the last five or ten years compared to how it used to be.

In the past, teams built dynasties. We all know them and can remember hating them. Today, I think you can certain \"build\" a contender, but you can\'t \"build\" a Super Bowl team. In the past five years there have been teams that have been good every year, but only one, that I can think of, that actually played in the Super Bowl. Look at Tampa or Oakland or even San Fran for more evidence of that (dang it I just broke my own rule... how about a pass on that one?)

The point is that Super Bowl teams just seem to happen. I don\'t remember who said it, I think it may have been you Saintfan, but whoever it was they were right - Super Bowl teams seem magical. Everything just seems to fall into place... and it\'s rarely the \"consumate contenders\" these days that can find that magic - at least it seems that way to me. That\'s why my emphasis is so strongly directed towards the present. I guess I\'d rather win a championship than be \"in contention\" every year. I don\'t know if I see that happening anymore through five years of careful planning and development. It just sort of happens all at once.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

While I agree with you on a lot of that, I have to disagree to a degree (I need to find a new word). At the risk of bringing up another team, this one is from a different sport...I know, I know, just bare with me for a paragraph or two.

Take the Braves of the last decade. I\'m a fan, and I\'m not happy with only one World Series, but I\'m happy to know that each year my team is in contention, because once you\'re in the playoffs, it\'s a free for all.

I know the collapse this year (and last) might have some people rolling their eyes at what I\'m about to type, but the Saints are contenders. I haven\'t felt as good about the teams chances since, well, ever, and I give Brooks some serious credit for that. I\'m not so sold on him that I wouldn\'t complain about him from time to time. Heaven knows I rolled my eyes at some of the throws he tried to make this year, but my jaw dropped in total amazement at some of the ones he made too. He can be erratic at times, but any of the greats have had their moments both good and bad. I do think he\'s soley responsible for the Cleveland game, but looking back on this season in years to come I\'ll never be convinced the tank job was his responsibility to shoulder.

Now, while quick turnarounds are popular these days, I still think a team can be built to contend for many years. It takes some solid drafting, key free agents, and sound cap management, but I believe it can be done. Part of that scenario is analyzing talent and making the right decisions, meaning you can\'t sign a QB to a multi-year deal and give up on him too soon. I think in Brooks the Saints have signed the right guy...now the trick is not to give up on him too soon. I\'m not suggesting the Saints are \"stuck\", but I think it\'s premature to yank him. I think if they did that they\'d be hurting themsleves and hurting the team.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

One point that seems to get overlooked in the fans debate is how did the paid professionals view Aaron Brooks who were not biased by his association .

What I submit are the professional scouting reports on Aaron Brooks in 1999.

Cnn reports from professional scouts .


Grading System
Aaron Brooks | QB | Virginia | ACC
Selected by Green Bay Packers in round 4, pick 36 (#131 overall)
Ht Wt 40 BP SS LS VJ BJ Grade
6\'3\" 203 4.57 - 4.33 - 35.5 10\' 5.45

Scott Halleran/Allsport

He is an athletic and mobile QB with good measurables and good intelligence. He has solid arm strength and can make all the throws necessary. He has really improved in the last two years, but he is a guy that doesn\'t appear to have great discipline in the pocket. In spite of his intelligence, he does not have great patience and seems to scramble a little more than he should when he doesn\'t read a defense. He is a little up and down in his production and doesn\'t always seem to be a real natural QB. The NFL teams that like him will take time to let him develop in his recognition of defenses as his measurables and intangibles are a positive.

Another draft report :

1999 Packer Draft: Aaron Brooks, Quarterback
Virginia/ 6:03.2-200/ Newport News, Virginia

What the scouts are saying . . .

AFC scout: \"He\'s not a detail guy. I get the feeling that Brooks isn\'t a worker or a studier. That scares you for a guy who\'s going to get barely any practice reps and will have to learn in the classroom.\"

NFC scout: \"Maybe there\'s some hope for him as a wide receiver. He\'s a great athlete. Horrible quarterback.\"

-- Bob McGinn


As posters are we really saying anything about Aaron Brooks that has not already been said about him ??

There are reasons Aaron Brooks was a low 4th round pick , and these assesments were made by Professional talent evaluators .

Aaron Brooks was questionable then and he is questionable now ...

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Saintz08, I think you forgot to read the rules.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

No , I did not forget to read the rules .

The agreement was between Who Dat and Saintsfan .

Not to all that post here .

So I suggest that Saintfan and I sound off and each express our opinion about Brooks.

Terms of agreement fulfilled .

Open post .

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Perhaps I misunderstood. Post away with 2 and 3 year old copies of other peoples opinions then. Have fun.
:casstet:

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Professional opinions at that .

There seems to be a time warp theory in effect with what some have called the Brookians . Yes , for all those that have been labeled Brooks bashers they have a name for those that think Brooks can do no wrong , Brookians .

If you use stats or analysis from 2 years ago , the Brookians will counter with those are old numbers and he has gotten so much better since then . If you refer to mistakes made now and in comparison to other quarterbacks , they usually refer to the fact he has only been a starting quarterback for 2 years .

Although in this case Brooks still exhibits all the same negatives as on the scouting report and these are usually the posters points . But that was 2 years ago .......

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

You know, I hadn\'t ever seen any of those reports... Of course, in the spirit of our agreement I shouldn\'t acknowledge them at all. About them I will say only this: I doubt that they\'re complete, but rather meant to portray a certain point... which they do well 08, they certainly get your point across well.

I know I shouldn\'t be talking about those quotes Saintfan, but they do convey something I have been saying for a while... and I\'ve honestly never seen those reports before. Brooks doesn\'t seem to be smart... I use smart loosely. Better yet, he doesn\'t seem to have FOOTBALL smarts. I don\'t get the feeling he does his homework. He looks lost a lot. That could also be why I get the feeling he doesn\'t read defenses very well. I mean, when he got hurt he didn\'t even put on the headphones. What\'s up with that man?

In any case, I understand you wanting a consumate contender. That really is the crux of our differences in opinion. I want to see the Saints win a Super Bowl as soon as possible. After they get that monkey off their back, then we can worry about being a good team year in and year out. Until we get to the big dance though, nothing else matters much to me.

Also, other than the Rams (I know, breaking the rules again), no team was built to get to a Super Bowl in recent years. Tampa hasn\'t gotten there with this team. Neither have the Raiders... even San Fran hasn\'t done it since the changing of the guard. They all have the talent to. But even the Rams seemingly sprouted out of nowhere. They maintained their level of play afterwards, but they weren\'t exactly built. I mean, New England, the Ravens, NEW YORK?, the Titans... not exactly powerhouses of professional football, ya know?

Anyway, that\'s it for me this Friday... how do you love my avatar Saintfan?

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Good posts you guys. As for trying to buy a Super Bowl, don\'t forget what Danial Snyder tried to do in Washington. He bought ,at least on paper, what should have been a Super bowl winner not long ago. Where are they now? :)

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

The recent Super Bowls since the league clamped down on the cap , seem to have been about the Quarterback in either the beginning or the end of his career .

Elway had watched to many get by and gave it that extra something .
Warner trying to establish himself .
Dilfer holding on and trying to get there , although I think the beginning of the season was about Elvis and The D was great , Goose may have been the difference .
Brady making his mark .

Gannon seems poised enough to take it all and Rice can taste it too . Raiders seem to have a sense of urgency before cap reality hits .

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Nah - Pennington and the J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets. They\'re playing great football... and I\'d like to see them go all the way.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

What Brooks is not!
He is not a team player, if he was he would have revealed that he was truly bothered by an injury and would have taken himself out of the games for the good of the team.

What Haslett is !!!
A liar for continuing to try and cover up the obvious, that his QB was injured for the last 4 games.

Now the truth is out, Brooks to have an operation on his shoulder. Or maybe that happened after the season was over, huh?

[Edited on 11/1/2003 by jm]

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

OK, back to the debate here... Saintfan I haven\'t heard back from you so I\'m going to pour a little gas on the fire.

A lot of people are likely to disagree with me, but I think Brooks\' athleticism and strong arm actually hurt him. Wait, wait, hear this out.

Brooks is probably one of the top ten athletes at QB in the league. He has one of the top five arms, in terms of strength. This would normally be something that you would love in a QB, but in Brooks\' case I think it hurts.

I think he uses his athleticism as an excuse to cut corners and take risks in other parts of his game. For example, \"I can throw off my back foot into traffic, b/c my arm is so strong. I\'ll get it there.\" Or \"I don\'t have to get the ball out quickly b/c I can buy time with my feet.\"

Now, does Brooks actually think those thoughts... probably not, but they\'er there subconsiously. C\'mon Saintfan, I know you\'ve gotta have a lot to say on this one.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

I could be wrong Who Dat but I think Saintsfan is an M-F poster .

Work related , just my guess work .

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

hey guys sorry i havent been here, been havin net problems, anyway
i missed all of this great conversation, but i really dont care right about now, just been havin a bad week, got in a wreck( not my fault) g/f left me :\'( kinda, lost my cable net :\'( i have 56k now :\'( jets lost :( o well i cant wait for the draft and for next season to begin, later peeps!!

geaux saints!!

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

You\'re right Saintz08...I\'m usually a M-F poster. I get enough of the web during the week usually.

And sorry to hear the News Pakowitz. Maybe we can get together and write a country song! hehe

Now as for the Brooks debate that just won\'t end. Up to a point I agree with you WhoDat, on the fact that Brooks confidence in his arm strength and ability to scramble hurt him, but not any more than the shoulder injury. Fact of the matter his arm HAS allowed him to make throws that the \"professionals\" Saintz08 likes to quote have marveled at. Since Saintz08 broke the rule and started a trend, I can\'t help but add that There\'s a QB in Green Bay who does that regularly, and throws a healthy number of INT\'s, but no one is calling for his job. For that matter there\'s a QB in Atlanta that does the same thing, but because he\'s so fast (his only real redeming quality at this time) no one is calling for his job. Everything seems to be relative doesn\'t it?

As I\'ve said before or at least tried to indicate, Brooks isn\'t without blame for the year end slide, but to say \"he\'s not a team player\" isn\'t fair. To use various stastistics in an effort to point the blame soley at Brooks without once considering 12 dropped passes in the last two games is being short-sighted. To say Brooks is the reason the Saints failed (failed meaning an average of 27 points per game is failing) running the \"West Coast\" offense when they didn\'t have a Tight-End that could catch the freakin football is biased.

As I have said before, it\'s pointless to attempt to sway someone who doesn\'t want to be swayed. Certain people are just gonna hate Aaron Brooks no matter what, but you\'ll never be able to convince me that those people are looking at the whole picture because they just aren\'t, or they\'d acknowledge certain other aspects of the Saints\' problems which they squarely refuse to do.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

OK Saintfan, I will also agree with you. Brooks has made some amazing throws. And I have said from the start that the collapse was not solely Brooks\' fault. Again, there are far bigger problems on this team. The only reason I\'m not talking about how bad the defense is is because that problem seems to be universally recognized. Everyone knows that wholesale changes will be made and most of us agree on who should stay and who should go. Actually, I believe you know that I have started other threads about guys like Knight and Turley... they just simply aren\'t debated with the passion that Brooks is.

Anyway, to stick with Brooks - I know I won\'t change your mind, just like I assume you know that you won\'t change mine. It\'s just healthy discussion, and as long as we\'re not going after each other I think it\'s fun.

I disagree with your comment about Vick. He doesn\'t throw a lot of INTs. He throws very few. However, you\'re absolutely right about Favre. He does the same thing that Brooks does, and I for one, like the guy and generally allow that.

You\'re probably already screaming DOUBLE STANDARD, but it\'s not, and I\'ll tell you why. For one, both of those guys you mentioned have other redeeming qualities. Vick can make plays with his feet. Favre, for the most part, wins when it counts. He\'s brought teams to championships and won. He\'s been the anchor of a consistent winner for years. Look at what Favre did this year with essentially a bunch of nobodies at receiver. Yeah, you know there names now, but it\'s because Favre makes them better players. Without a guy like that at QB I doubt that team is near as good, and you probably have a hard time thinking of who their receivers are right now.

Brooks doesn\'t have those redeming qualities. He doesn\'t have anything that makes up for dumb plays like Vick and Favre do. And again, I bet I know what you\'re thinking. Favre wasn\'t always a winner. What about when he was a second year starter? You\'re right, and I guess it comes down to faith. I just don\'t have it in Brooks.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

I dunno Gator, I think Vick is going to be around for a long time... haunting the Saints.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

IMHO AB needs a few basic things and I\'ll just list 2.
1. He needs to make better decisions on the fly. Not really even decisions. It\'s things he\'s been taught but doesn\'t do. i.e. ummmmm chunk the ball out of bounds when you\'re outside of the tackle...no need to take the sack.
2. Admit his limitations (especially to himself). Meaning...if you\'re hurt all you do is hurt your team by playing when you\'re not able to. Which was painfully obvious.
Having said that....I just think a lot of AB\'s probs could be helped if the coaches used his abilities. He\'s not a pure pocket passer. Never will be. Get the guy moving a bit. a la Jeff Garcia. I\'m not saying run run run him, but for pete\'s sake get the guy mobile from time to time.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

I complete agree with that.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

After this year , Vick has a bullseye on his back . He is going to be the player in the NFL that defenses want to hit and hit hard . Should be interesting to see ..

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

\" He is going to be the player in the NFL that defenses want to hit and hit hard . Should be interesting to see ..\"

Sounds like every QB to me. I do agree that it seems Vick will be more of a target then others. Only because he\'ll put himself into position to take the hits....like the smoking shot Brian Dawkins gave him in Philly.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

It is the Steve Young saga all over again . Young made so many linebackers and lineman miss him that when they saw him they were bringing the pain on that hit . I think the term is \"softening them up \" . It always seemed like defenders were giving Young a little extra something with each hit .

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Hey Saintfan,

Pak recently posted an article from SaintsReport.com in which Sean Salisbury made comments about the draft and what it takes to be a player in the league. Tell me if any of this sounds like what I\'ve said about Brooks. I think it all applies directly to Brooks and Haslett.

\"How can you miss on a player in the upper rounds? According to Salisbury, it’s usually a matter of \'falling in love\' with a prospect without enough reasons to do so. Football instincts, heart and mental preparation are factors that are hard to evaluate, but which are critical to performing in the NFL.\" While we didn\'t draft Brooks, does this sound like it applies to Brooks? Don\'t you think the coaches have \"fallen in love\" with Brooks?

How about \'Salisbury also adheres to the adage that “potential gets coaches fired.\' At the next level some guys get in over their head. Ultimately, it’s the mental demands of the game that separate the real players from the guys who have to find other work. \" If they don\'t perform damn well next year then potential will get Haslett fired.

\"As to the art of scouting, Salisbury says it basically comes down to matching the player with the team and what you want to do. A great player on one team might not shine on another...\" Does Brooks match well with what the Saints are trying to do on offense?

I don\'t care what you think about analysts. Salisbury played the game and now he works analyzing it. The guy has to garner at least some respect. What he says is very interesting, and I draw a lot of parallels to the Haslett/Brooks situation.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

You only see what you want to see WhoDat. You only hear what you want to hear. It\'s understandable, and thats why we\'re all hooked on sports. You\'re taking something not pointed at Brooks OR Haz by your own admission and steering it that way. I can surely understand your passion for the game and for our team, but sometimes we we fall \"in\" or \"out\" with a particular coach or player. When that happens it\'s very difficult to see the forest for the trees.

As I have said all along with regards to Aaron Brooks, what I see there is a VERY talented YOUNG MAN who, if given the time and with proper guidance, has the ability to be very good for a very long time. Neither of the two QB\'s that will be in the superbowl are young. It took time to develope both of them didn\'t it? Men don\'t just step into the league and become instant winners. Sure, there have been some exceptions, but it\'s the exception and not the rule. Anyone who expects that is wasting their time dreaming and our time posting nonsense.

Oh sure, some posters want to win it NOW NOW NOW without regards to what might happen down the road. I understand that too. I\'m just not so quick on the trigger. Let me ask those screaming for Jake if he would have willed Reed to catch that ball he dropped that would have put us in the playoffs. Let me ask \'em if Jake plays defense too. Get my point? If I was Haz I\'d be pissed too. I don\'t understand why you weren\'t. If I was Brooks I\'d shrug that off and call it \"typical fan reaction\" too. If you were in his shoes wouldn\'t you? If not then tell me why? What I see is a team that averaged just under 30 points a game. So, Brooks gets hurt, the TEAM (yes, I said the TEAM) lost direction, and the Saints didn\'t make the playoffs. While this is painful, it\'s not cause to fire the coach (no, not yet) or throw Jake in the mix. I think the current administration has taken the New Orleans Saints to another level. We\'re not the Cowboys of the 90\'s yet, but that team\'s starting QB didn\'t win the superbowl in his first two years either! Just how many points a game does the team have to score?

The answer to that question is \"a bunch\". The reason that\'s the answer is because our defense, our absolutely terrible defense, couldn\'t stop our grandmothers in wheel chairs. Notice there hasn\'t been much posting about how bad the \"D\" was. Thats because it sucked and we all know it. Some people here say it all boils down to coaching, and to a degree I agree with that, but the players have to be responsible too. Any top notch player in the league will tell you they don\'t need \"coach so and so\" to motivate them.

So, the \"experts\" we have so much faith in, as long as they say what we\'re thinking, can talk all they want about the Saints Offense. They\'re doing that because that\'s the only angle they have with this team. It\'s curious the way the offense played at the end of the year, but the truth (and you know it) is that with ANY kind of defense the Saints would have made the playoffs. You guys can blame Brooks for not making the playoffs all day. You can scream it from the top of the highest building, but that doesn\'t make it true. You can also wrongfully expect a 2nd year starter to shoulder a team if you want, but why would you want to do that? Brooks is learning. We didn\'t give away the farm to sign him either, no matter what some folks would have you belive. Financially the Saints are in a pretty good position.

Finally, let me ask you up front which of those ESPN \"experts\" you believe in. Let\'s get it out now so that as soon as they say something that\'s totally opposite your opinion I can point it out to you. If you wanna hang your hat on Sean Salisbury then fine. Much as you might like to disagree, I think Haz has a better idea about his football team than Sean does. Football, and sports in general, is a soap opera, plain and simple, and we\'re all hooked. The people who generate controversy are, for the most part, paid to do it. It\'s good stuff. It sells.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Hey man, I couldn\'t agree with you more about the defense. Remember, we started this thread with the premise that this was about Brooks. I\'m not trying to change your opinion, I\'m just sounding off. I think you\'re doing the same. Likewise, I don\'t want to start talking about the defense in this thread. I know it is THE problem with the Saints. A much much bigger issue than the quarterback position.

Look, I\'m not saying that I\'m a genius or a prophet. I\'m not saying that if Jake Delhomme was given the opportunity to start that he would be the next Joe Montana. But I do know a thing or two about football. For example, I started criticising the defense early. I said the D would do better as a 3-4 with 6 weeks left in the season... give or take. Now they\'re talking about going to the 3-4. Again, I\'m not some brilliant football mastermind. I\'m not claiming to be, but I do know about football.

Now, back to the subject at hand. In your post you said that I only see what I want to see. Actually, I was reading a post by a former player current analyst and all of his quotes sounded like things that I, and a whole slew of others said about Brooks and Haslett. It did jump out at me, surprisingly so.

You also said, \"I can surely understand your passion for the game and for our team, but sometimes we we fall \'in\' or \'out\' with a particular coach or player. When that happens it\'s very difficult to see the forest for the trees.\" Does that statement only apply to fans? Has a coach, let alone a New Orleans Saint coach, never been guilty of this?

Just as you think my criticism of Brooks is extreme, I see your support for him as blinding. You would agree that arguing over a certain point continuously tends to make a person entrenched in their view, would you not? Look at us, we were ready to kill each other a couple of weeks ago and we don\'t really even know each other. My point is, I believe that Haslett has become entrenched in his views about Brooks. He sees physical talent, but not mental mistakes. He sees a strong armed mobile \"young man,\" but ignores his shotty preparation and poor leadership skills. Now, I don\'t want to pertend to know what Haslett is thinking, I\'m just saying that\'s what appears to be going on to me. I hope, for the New Orleans Saints sake, and for Haslett\'s sake, it\'s not. But I fear it is, and eventually it will become all too clear how much damage that way of thinking can do and/or has done.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Let\'s take Jimmy Johnson as an example. He fell in love with Troy Aikman while all the experts were saying Troy didn\'t have the \"smarts\" to be a top notch NFL QB. Can you believe that? Very true. Now in Troy\'s first few years all the \"experts\" were saying \"I told you so\" while Troy struggled. The rest is history.

Now I\'m not trying to compare Brooks with Aikman. I only say that because the \"experts\" are as wrong as they are right. In fact their percentage is probably well under 50% if people kept track of such things.

How can anyone say about Brooks that he is guilty of \"shotty preparation and poor leadership skills\". Scoring nearly 30 points a game on average in the NFL is NOT shotty preparation by any stretch of the imagination. Now I might have some fault with some play calling or maybe the game plan, but it\'s not accurate to make that statement. Now it could be that Brooks is not a natural-born leader...could be...could be that the Man is young and needs to better develop his leadership skills. I, for one, and not gonna fault him for that. Are you? His coaches acknowledge that he needs to step up in that regard, but until someone on the team who has to take the field with him comes out and says he has \"poor leadership skills\" I am going to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Now I\'m not pointing my finger at you, WhoDat, and I\'m not going to challenge your knowledge of the game. I respect your knowledge and your opinion, I just think you\'re wrong! :P I have the same opinion of Saintz08 and I\'ve stated as much. I just happen to be on the other side of the \"opinion fence\" when it comes to Haz and Brooks. Toss in Gatorman and we\'d probably thow a hell of a party, but we\'d argue a lot too!

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

A couple of comments. One, leaders cannot be made or taught. You can be taught to be a better manager. You cannot be taught to be a better leader. You\'ve got it or you don\'t. Brooks don\'t. ;) Maybe he can become a better manager of the game, but never a better leader... in my opinion.

And you\'re absolutely right about Jimmy Johnson. Haslett is doing the same thing with Brooks. Most probably, one of us will be right. Either Brooks will become a star and for the rest of your life you can follow up anything I say with an I told you so, or he\'ll flop and I\'ll be able to do the same to you... although I hope neither of us gives the other TOO hard of a time since we all win some lose some.

In any case, I think Haslett is sticking with Brooks to his own demise. The knock on Brooks has been that he doesn\'t work hard. I\'ve seen it written in the papers, I\'ve heard it on TV. Now, you\'ll probably blow evey single one of those accounts off as total hogwash b/c Haslett has said Brooks isn\'t a hard worker, but c\'mon. Does the man look like he\'s trying really hard to figure out what other teams are doing on defense when he\'s on the sidelines? Does he ever have the headsets on? Do you ever see him looking at film? Never!!! So why would you think that he spends other time watching game tapes?

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Honestly, I don\'t see a camera following Aaron, so I can\'t tell you whether or not he\'s looking at film or talking to the recievers or what. You must have one of those wide screen TV\'s, because my TV doesn\'t show the sideline constantly. hehe :P I do remember Donte\' dropping a pass. He said afterwards, on the sideline, Brooks came over to him and told him not to sweat it...that he would be looking for him again. Donte\' scored a TD in that game and gave Aaron credit for his sideline motivation. He said it helped him and that he appreciated it. So....

...as for leadership, I disagree totally. I\'ll grant you that some people are natural born leaders while others aren\'t, but to say someone can\'t learn the leadership skill is selling humanity short. C\'mon WhoDat, people can learn to be leaders. Some people are leaders while others prefer to follow, so I\'ll agree that some people just aren\'t made to lead, but to say a person cannot learn to lead if they have the desire to do so just plain ain\'t right. Leading has as much to do with the desire to do it as it does being given a natural born talent. Not every General went through West Point man.

Now, what I have heard and read is people speculating as to whether or not Brooks works hard...it generally follows up some sort of comment about him smiling, but what I have NOT heard or read is someone stating it flat out...factually! What I have read and heard is his coaches and teammates saying how hard he works in practice. I haven\'t heard anything contrary to that that wasn\'t speculation coming from someone who has no inside track with which to base his/her opinion.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

You\'re right, I forgot about his work ethic in practice. Like all those snaps he DIDN\'T take during the last month of the season... but he was hurt... or wait, no he wasn\'t... well, he was hurt enough not to practice but not hurt enough to be affected in a game. Which makes total sense to me! ;)

About leadership, I think we have a different opion (imagine that) on what it means to lead. A true leader to me, is two things and two things only. 1. A visionary. 2. A motivator. A great leader can be a bad manager. You can\'t teach a person to be visionary... sorry, there\'s just no way. You can teach motivation, but people are smart. You know how you can tell if a person is just a \"people person\" versus one who is trying to motivate. I don\'t know about you but people who \"try\" usually fail with me.

Now, part of being a good NFL quarterback is being a good manager. Telling people where to be, holding them accountable for their actions, calling the shots. All of that stuff can generally be taught. Be, in my opinion, you cannot be taught to be a leader. You got it, or you don\'t got it. Kind of like natural ability.

Another problem is that I don\'t see Brooks progressing a lot overall. When he improves one area, another suffers. I mean, I don\'t remember him back pedaling in his first year and a half. I also don\'t remember him throwing the ball away much - so in this case he\'s gotten better. He runs less, which can go either way in terms of good or bad... In any case, there are a million things. The point is that for every good thing he does there is at least one bad. It never seems to me like the good is beginning to outweigh the bad, but rather that the two are simply getting shuffled around but staying in a state of equilibrium.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Maybe if you gave the man more than 2 seasons to pass judgement on him your opinion might be different. If you and some others in here were to have passed judgement of some of today\'s great QB\'s NONE of \'em would be in the NFL. Patience is a virtue. If you weren\'t so quick to judge you might have a different opinion. Now, about practice. If you\'d read much about the situation you\'d know the following:

The injury Brooks had didn\'t necessarilly hinder his throwing motion, but what it did in fact do, according to Doctors, and for that Matter Jake Delhomme, who by the way had the very same injury in college, was cause the arm to be fatigued quicker than normal. This was the biggest issue according to anyone and everyone who was close to the situation. I have to think, adding one and one to get to two, that this is why Jim sat him down during the practice.

What I\'ll suggest to you and anyone else who thinks AB doesn\'t have what it takes is to remember those players that were told they didn\'t have what it took, but made it anyway. Have some Patience with Brooks, and I bet before too much longer you\'ll be glad you did.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

Hey Saintfan, I\'ve said before and I\'ll say it again. Aaron Brooks may be an NFL great some day. I don\'t see that happening next year, or the year after, or the year after. In fact given the Saints history with QBs I would bet it won\'t happen while he\'s wearing black and gold. I\'d rather have a quarterback who can help us win now than have to deal with Brooks for the next five years until he finally comes around. Normally, I\'m not like this. I the poster boy for delayed gratification... however, with this team\'s talent and the ease at which it can slip away, I\'m not particularly interested in waiting for Brooks to mature. (which, by the way, I\'m still not sure he can do).

One other thing... when can we begin to hold Brooks accountable? In the middle of next season when he\'s started for three straight years, after next season, after his fourth season as a starter, fifth...? When, in your mind, can you say, OK, he has to start producing now?

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

The question really isn\'t when, but what. What is it exactly that you would like to hold him accountable for? It seems as though everyone wants to make his the scape goat for the problems at the end of the season. The bottom line is that, as another posted said so well, you can all say what you\'d like to about Brooks, but ultimately he had the Saints in position to win the vikings game AND the carolina game. Poor defense, fumbles, and dropped passes are what kept us out of the playoffs...period, end of story.

Gripe about Brooks all you want, but I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again and again. He is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT the problem nor is he where the focus should be. He\'s an easy target, plain and simple. The Eagles fans bood the selection of their current QB. The Vikings fans were ready to can Culpepper earlier this year. Tampa Bays current QB was run out of Minnesota. Oaklands current QB was run out of Kansas City. I think you get the point.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

BOOOOOOO Brooks, BOOOOOOOO!!

He is not THE problem on this team, but I think that\'s a good thing for you. If the defense gets better next year and plays like it did in days gone by, he WILL be THE problem, and then there\'s no place for him to hide. No way for the coaches to direct attention to other BIGGER problems. Just b/c the defense is bad doesn\'t mean Brooks is good. It means he is not as bad. If they get better, that relative scal swings against him... and then there\'s gonna be trouble.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

It\'s too bad that you feel that way, because as Brooks continues to set Saints records for passing what will you do WhoDat? Will you really be able to enjoy the bandwagon as much then?

The question remains, if you wanna hold Brooks accountable, what is it exactly that you wanna hold him accountable for? You gonna make him accountable for the fumbles and dropped passes that cost the Saints the playoffs? Maybe you\'d like to hold him accountable for the falling stockmarket and the world economy too. This guy has come in here and played better than any Saints QB since Manning and you all still wanna paste him to the wall. Talk about his footwork or a selection of poor throws if you want, but I\'m still wondering what it is exactly that you hold Aaron responsible for.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

...and another thing. If the defense this year had played as well as they have in days gone by, I think our average 27 points a game would have been just fine, don\'t you? If we had that kind of defense this year we would have made it. Of course you\'d still be complaining about Brooks. Maybe you\'re just not happy with the economy. Yeah, thats it. Or was it the stockmarket? Whatever the case, you would have blamed Aaron sure as shootin\'.

WhoDat and Saintfan sound off on Brooks
 

I don\'t understand why you think that I have some vendetta against Aaron Brooks. I can be convinced, I haven\'t been yet. I was in awe of what he did in the second half of 2000, and like the rest of you I thought he was the guy. I pulled for him over Blake. However, after seeing more of him, my opinion has changed. We value different things at the quarterback position, apparently, and I think we have different ideas about what type of player the Saints QB should be.

In a west coast offense you don\'t need a guy with quick feet or a great arm. Those things certainly make a QB better. However, the most important things in a west coast offense are smarts and efficiency. A good west coast QB reads the defense well, knows where to go with the ball before the play starts, and gets rid of the ball quickly, never expecting to be the star, but letting his playmakers make plays. Does that sound like Aaron Brooks to you?

Aaron\'s weak spots are the two most important things in the Saints\' system. He is strong in a lot of other areas, but they are ancillary. Also, I\'m confused Saintfan - the dropped passes and the fumbles are the receivers and backs fault, but the completions and touchdowns are all Brooks? Stallworth probably scored 5 touchdowns this past season by himself. Did he drop five passes that cost us the game? Did he drop five catchable passes period?

Dude, I\'m not blaming Brooks for the late season collapse. I think he was certainly part of it, but there were a lot of other things that contributed to that collapse. You want to talk about how Boo Williams or Jake Reed dropped sure touchdowns, nevermind the fact that Aaron was 0-11 in his last 11 against the Bengals. Seriously, think about it. Give him five more completions a game in both of the last two games (were there more than 5 dropped passes in each of those games?) That brings his QB rating up to what, 40, 50? That still sucks.