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Blowing up some arguments

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; RDOX, You can\'t blame one side for being stats mongers in this particular thread. It started out as a stats argument, that is what \"the children\" have been arguing AGAINST. Simply put, this has been a stats thread. It was ...

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Old 01-25-2005, 11:35 AM   #41
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Blowing up some arguments

RDOX,

You can\'t blame one side for being stats mongers in this particular thread. It started out as a stats argument, that is what \"the children\" have been arguing AGAINST. Simply put, this has been a stats thread. It was interesting, but most of the disagreement, as you point out, seems to come down to whether or not the stats tell you the things you think they do.

W-L record, aside from getting into the playoffs, is the most meaningless stat in the entire game. I\'m not sure why people keep saying all that matters is W-L?

W-L accrue to the ENTIRE team, so they are not a reflection of any individual player, coach, owner, front office, or anyone else for that matter. The W-L record ONLY tells you about the whole team. This is why we keep individual stats, this is why scouts don\'t just draft all the guys from teams with exceptional records, this is why when a team has a losing season, they don\'t merely cut everyone and start fresh.

Everyone agrees that after being .500 for 5 years we should try something else, we just disagree on what it is. That is what is interesting about it.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:41 AM   #42
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Sorry bud but I DO believe that. Have you looked at Leon\'s stats the last 4 games? I have broken them down NUMEROUS times. He sucked for 11 quarters of football out of 16 in the last 4 games. But the rest of the team picked up the slack. So when the rest of the team isn\'t able to pick up the slack, the QB needs to and Leon CAN NOT. If he can play terrible WHEN WE WIN, egads how terrible it is to have him WHEN WE LOSE. See the difference. The only game where he played a solid full game was the Carolina game. I even gave him props and said if he played like that in MORE GAMES I would lay off him, but he doesn\'t. So yes I very much believe another qb would be a better fit and would have helped us more. At least a consistent qb. That term is an oxymoron for Brooks.

I don\'t know if you understand analogies Gumbo cause you sure missed the one RDOX and I made. Leon is like a cancer(my apologies right now to anyone who has had or knows anyone who has cancer). Sure you can do chemo on the body and remove the traces of it, but if any of it remains it can come back and destroy you. So say we perform chemo on this team, coaches gone, we get a GM, a few new players but the cancer stays, only it seems smaller or that it has been cured cause you thought you fixed the problem areas. But the cancer stays, and little by little it grows, and infects the parts of the body around it, which in turn affects more and more areas. Eventually, you either have to perform chemo again or you die. Get it now? Starts as a small problem but affects the overall health of the entire unit. That\'s Leon.

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by saintswhodi]
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:44 AM   #43
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I also disagree Gumbo with the fact that the Rams or Vikes have more talent than us. Their lines are just as bad, I will take our receivers over either of theirs(simply cause of Joe), their defenses are bad and our D-line is better than either, our rb situation(rb and fb) is better, the Vikes MAY have better lbs but ours are better than the Rams, the Vikes may have had the edge in secondary before we got MM but with him I will take ours, so I fail to see where they have more talent. They do have BETTER QBS though.
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:59 AM   #44
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saintwhodi --

Let me attack this from another angle.

I think there are a FEW QB\'s out there who could get us a COUPLE of more wins. Peyton Manning, Vick, Culpepper, and McNabb. Other than those guys, I don\'t think it would make much of a difference.

I don\'t think Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Trent Green would make us a playoff team.

So, while we could have an upgrade at the QB position, it just isn\'t fesible to cut Brooks and try and get a Manning, Vick, McNabb, or Culpepper.

In other words, it\'s far from being the QBs fault that the Saints aren\'t a playoff team.

Instead, it is much more fesible to fix the defense and the O-line.
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:25 PM   #45
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Well, glad you looked at it another way, but unfortunately I feel EVERY qb you listed as not being able to make us better absolutely WOULD make us better.

Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Trent Green
Every one of them.
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:26 PM   #46
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saintwhodi --

Let me attack this from another angle.

I think there are a FEW QB\'s out there who could get us a COUPLE of more wins. Peyton Manning, Vick, Culpepper, and McNabb. Other than those guys, I don\'t think it would make much of a difference.

I don\'t think Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Trent Green would make us a playoff team.

So, while we could have an upgrade at the QB position, it just isn\'t fesible to cut Brooks and try and get a Manning, Vick, McNabb, or Culpepper.

In other words, it\'s far from being the QBs fault that the Saints aren\'t a playoff team.

Instead, it is much more fesible to fix the defense and the O-line.
What you fail to address in your thread is the fact that while the quarterbacks that are mentioned may not be as good as Leon as far as raw talent goes, they do INSPIRE good play from their teammates. St. Louis does not have as good a receiver corps as the Saints, yet they produce. Bulger does things to negate the fact that his line is not as solid as say the Broncos. You\'ve never heard Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, Moon, Williams, Cunningham, or even Vick say that they had to \"carry\" their team because they were great. This is the cancer that Whodi and I are speaking of. Leon is eaten up with his own image of himself. He is the embodiment of what is wrong with the Saints. Sullivan has the same disease.

Now, you can crow and harp and discuss Leon\'s greatness all you want, but you can\'t deny the fact the this team is mediocre with him as the starting QB. That\'s a flat fact. Also, this \"poor O-Line\" argument may hold water this year, but in the past 4 years, everyone who had anything to say about football counted the Saint\'s O-Line as their major strength. What happened to Leon those years? Oh Yeah! He had great stats. Baloney!!
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:41 PM   #47
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Well, glad you looked at it another way, but unfortunately I feel EVERY qb you listed as not being able to make us better absolutely WOULD make us better.

Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Trent Green
Every one of them.
Then why did Bulger finish 8-8?

And why did Delhomme finish 7-9?

And why did Trent Green finish 7-9?

And why were the Saints the hottest team over the last part of the season?

If Brooks is a \"cancer\" why did the team rally and make a playoff run?
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:48 PM   #48
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If Brooks is a \"cancer\" why did the team rally and make a playoff run?
A bit cynical here, but with all the talk about Haz getting fired maybe everyone was playing for their job?

I\'m not sure that the last 4 wins (against 3 suspect teams) means that everyone rallied around the current QB.
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:52 PM   #49
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Umm Bulger missed two games with injuries and was in the playoffs.

If someone has to explain to you that Delhomme was great to even GET TO 7-9 with all the injuries to KEY players that team had, there is no point in going on.

Let\'s see Trent Green, 4591 yards, 27 Tds, 17 Ints 66% completion rate qb rating of 95.2 with WORSE RECEIVERS and Priest Holmes OUT half the year. Leon 57% completion, 3810 yards 21tds 16 ints 79.5 rating. See now why I would prefer Green?

Let\'s see. The D played better and special teams scored for us in the 1st quarter of games. Outside of 5 out of 16 quarters, very little to do with Leon\'s play.

If you see this team as having rallied around Brooks as you are implying, you are touched. Everyone hear has heard about the crickets Leon heard chirping as he tried to give a speech to rally the team against Carolina. Somehow you equate THAT to rallying for Brooks? hahaha how about the significant level of talent drop of the opponents they were facing. Not hard to rally when you play 3 teams with losing records and one that sits all its starters. Oops.
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Old 01-25-2005, 01:13 PM   #50
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saintwhodi--

Okay!! You can sit here and believe that Brooks plays on this extremely talented team and say Delhomme, Trent Green, Bulger, and Hasselbeck play on terrible teams. If you want to believe that, then fine!! Knock yourself out amigo!!

But let\'s see. We got:

Victor Riley
Wayne Gandy
Deuce ( who this year didn\'t do anything.)
Stallworth ( who is fast but what else?)
Pathon ( boy he\'s a game changer)
Carney ( a rookie fullback)

Do I really need to list the talent on the Panthers, Seahawks, Rams, Chiefs?

Or how \'bout all the mistakes Favre made. Just another great QB on a pathetic team, I suppose?!

Ooops!!
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