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i know this is a hot button around here but without any diatribe or long winded essays could i see a show of hands...

move brooks for whatever can be had in draft picks or defensive players. do not sign a big name FA ala hasslebeck but make due with stopgap variety like kitna and/or a top rookie (whatever flavor you like- smith, walter, etc).

YES move him or NO keep him?

YES here

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With McNuggets moving out as OC, Mr. Brooks will have to learn a new system and find a way to understand the communication style of the new OC. Being as how he\'s not demonstrated a competent grasp of the current system, I fear that there is a strong likelihood of a regression of the offense if he remains.

Let\'s find Leon a new home and get a draft pick or something for his unloved self.

YES

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It might not be a bad idea to get rid of him now..while we still have a strong enough run game to compensate for a young qb\'..and the mistakes that would certainly ensue

I would only consider trading him for fair compensation..which is a totally different ordeal..and I fear many huge debates would follow to establish what exactly is fair compensation...

But..we don\'t have to get rid of him to replace him..it certainly would help with the cap though...

get rid of him now...get what you can...and move on..

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yes-i think just about any rookie QB would be about the same as he is overall.

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May as well develop a new young QB if a new system is to be installed. By the time Brooks grasps a new system, he\'ll be in the twilight of his career. Give a rookie/youngster the reins, let him learn, and by that time he\'ll be well developed.

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All in favor, say AYE!!! AYE AYE AYE AYE AYE AYE AYE AYE. I don\'t see how a rookie or a veteran free agent could do any worse. I said in another thread the exact same as xan. In 5 years he has not mastered this system, now he has to learn a new one? No thanks.

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Deal him.

No cutting, he should only go if we get compensation for him.

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I was ready to see Brooks go but after I saw how bad the OL was I say let\'s try and build the line, Deuce didn\'t have a very good year or Brooks, the problem is up front, shouldn\'t be an arugement here, we were horrible, not sure that we will have the problem corrected by next season, I\'m thinking that it will take 2 years to get the line working like everybody wants,
Not that easy to just cut him, who will we have then?, Bledsoe who won\'t be a starter for the Bills reports say.

LongTimeFan

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LongTime Fan, I think the point of everyone in this thread is WHO CARES who we have then. Has AB led us to the playoffs the last 4 years? No. Was he one of the league leaders in turnovers since he has been a starter? Yes. Has he ever been able to post better than a .500 record? No. Is he usually embarrasing the Saints on national tv with dumb plays? Yes. Is he arrogant with not one ounce of a reason to be? Yes. Is he an ego-maniac? Apparantly so. So tell me, who couldn\'t we have that would be an improvement? I am willing to struggle with a rookie cause at least you can say, well he\'s a rookie. Not a 5 year starter who appears to be gettign worse as the seasons go on but his ego gets bigger.

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In my opinon I think the Saints should hire an OC that can run the spread offense maybe even Mike Martz top offensive asst. The Saints have built an offense almost idenical to the Rams \"Greatest Show on Turf\". ex.:
M. Faulk = Deuce
I. Bruce = Horn
T. Holt = Stallworth
E. Conwell = E. Conwell
A. Hakim = M. Lewis/ Devry
R. Prohel = J. Pathon/ T. Gardner(maybe)
The only thing missing is the qb, & while I think Brooks could thrive in this type offense maybe a change would be good and maybe we go get K. Warner ( God help me, I never thought I would say that!) and move up in the draft to get Aaron Rogers from Cal to groom for 1 or 2 years cause lets face it we have to win now and can not afford to waste a year on a rookie qb. After all for outside of Big Ben I can\'t remember a qb, even the great ones, that had a great rookie year that includes Peyton.

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i\'d like to get a rookie in here and keep brooks for at least one more year as the starter. if you dont see someone doing worse then looom at the giants with eli. im not ready for a complete overhaul just yet. i\'d like to give it one more year. but we have to bring someone in. he is not our answer anymore for the future like i once thought. but i\'d give him one more year.

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i didnt mean loom at the giants i meant look at the giants sorry about that

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Keep him and bring in some quality competition.

SFIAH

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A rookie?, are you guys kidding me?
Look, I don\'t think AB is a top 5 QB first of all but If AB would be traded than I want a top 5 QB not a rookie, a rookie would really set us back, we have a good RB and WR\'s, with free agents going and coming all the time wouldn\'t you think the time for the Saints is in the next two years?, I for one think we will make the playoffs in the next couple of years, start a rookie and now we\'re looking at 3-5 years if we were to be lucky and we all know the Saints have no luck.
the only way that I would want AB traded would be for a better QB (top 5), like a Drew Brees type, a QB who can come in and improve our chances of winning, I don\'t want no freaking rookie, look at the Giants, you think that they will be a winning team soon with a young Eli? I say no
Whcih rookie would you want to bring in thinkinh you could win in the next 2 years?

LongTimeFan

[Edited on 29/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]

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Hey LongTime, look at Eli? Look at Roethlisberger. Honestly, I would rather have Eli over AB last year, and this year. How can you say, AB is not a top 5 QB, then say but if we trade him I want a top 5 QB? Huh? IF, HUGE IF, AB is a top 20 qb(around number 20 by most stats) if we get a guy who is top 15, isn\'t that better? Peyton Manning started as a rookie and was 3-13, think that has worked out for the Colts since? I understand how you feel, but if we aren\'t winning with AB, does it really matter if we have a rookie in there now? McNabb started as a rookie also. So did Carr, on an expansion team, and he is now posting the same record as AB. Explain to me again how a rookie can be worse? A rookie set us back? AB is setting us back NOW, and for the last FOUR years. He led the league in red zone turnovers this past season. Fumbles the year before. I think a rookie can come in and do that just fine at a lower salary, don\'t you?

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How often does a Roethilsberger come along?, not very often why I\'m not a big fan of rookies, now when you look into the free agent market than I feel that you have a much better chance to win sooner than later with the free-agent player, that goes for all postions....
I agree, AB make dum mistakes, again, look at Eli this season, he looked awful and will look almost as bad next year..
How do you feel the OL played this season?
Our line this season was the worst that I\'ve seen in sometime, hell even when Deuch came back close to 100% the line never gave him a chance, no holes, no blocks..
In a past post I said that I wanted Brooks traded, cut or whatever at the end of last season, my thinking for this season was the poor effort by our OL, did you notice how Brooks had almost no time to look down field?, I did
A lot of plays he had only 2-3 seconds per play to work with,
Could another QB have done better?, like let say Manning, maybe, but who\'s to know for sure.
What makes Manning so good is he has all the time that he needs to look the entire field over, lots of protection for him.
A friend of mine asked me how Brooks would have played this year if he was the starter for the Colts, I said that Brooks would have had a better chance to play well there,
I remember well here on this site whenBrooks became the starter when Blake got hurt, he had a good line then, people here loved him because he helped win our very first playoof game, wouldn\'t you say that we had a much better OL then compared to the last couple of years?
I will say this though, Brooks will have to learn a new system next year, it may set him back big time, so if the Saints front office doesn\'t see Brooks as a Saints in the very near future than and only than I say go ahead and draft a rookie and build a team around the rookie QB.
We\'re just to close right now to have a set back, the next 2 years in important for the Saints, if we can\'t make it to the playoffs during this time then it\'s time to try a totally new system, and then the the rebuilding begin

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the more i have contemplated 6mil a yr the more i think we could do better with the money. i favor getting the defense up to mediocrity at least and make do with a make do qb like kitna with a top flight youngster in the wings. there have been some darn journeyman qbs in the superbowl with decent defenses. subtract AB and there are still some quality tools on offense. but even if not that, if you insisted on a top tier qb... when getting rid of AB, DH, and JP that is 20mil fresh cap to spend. that could land a hasslebeck, holcombe, ot garcia (via trade). any of those if not statistically better than leon would not be worse. at least do 7-9 to 9-7 with a fresh face (and fewer gaffes).

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Agreed LKelley, the money can be better spent on a QB of equal value as AB either being a rookie or a free agent, that would cost us less. More money for other positions.

LongTime, noone denies the line was poor this year, they were better last year, did AB lead the league in fumbles, half of them when noone even touched him? Yup. Did you know the Saints were 7-4 before Blake got hurt since you brought up that time? You know AB\'s record, 3-2 to finish the regular season, 4-3 overall that first year, he has been medioce ever since. So has the team. Did you also know AB led ALL qbs in red zone turnovers this year? Did you also know that on the 4 game winning streak, AB played absolutely terrible in 11 out of 16 quarters, when the line AND defense were better? Again, when Eli makes mistakes, at least you can say he is a rookie. Did you know he almost led his team to a victory over the Steelers?Team with the best record in the league? Did you know his line and receivers are crap compared to ours? So I would choose Eli over AB in a heartbeat. So blame the line, I have seen AB look horrible WITH good protection. He has done NOTHING in 5 years that I don\'t think a rookie could do with the same offense. I simply disagree. If Peyton Manning was in our offense, we would be in the playoffs. I have yet to see anyone here deny that.

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saintwhodi --

You want to talk about QB and win/losses?

Tell me this.

Eli Manning vs. Ben Rothlisberger.

Both Rookies. Eli Drafted #1 and Ben drafted 22nd.

What was Eli\'s win/loss record?

What was Ben\'s win/loss record.

Why the difference? Hey, both were rookies!!

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If Eli played for the Steelers, he woulda been 15-1 also. Look what happened when Ben played like AB, they got bounced from the playoffs. He looked like crap in the first playoff game verses the Jets, but Brien kicked his team out of a win. Then against the Pats he did NOTHING in the first half but turn the ball over and not score(sound familiar) then pad numbers when the game was over(sounds familiar). Yeah, I see the difference. One similarity between Ben and Eli though, either would be an improvement over what we have. That\'s my point.

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saintwhodi --

Would it be fair to say Ben had a better win/loss record than Eli because he had a better supporting cast?

Ben = 15-1
Eli = only won 1 game.

I\'m going to assume you said yes....

Both Eli and Ben were rookies, so advantage = push!!

Although, Eli had a dad and brother with NFL experienceto learn from. Advantage = Eli.

So, there must be a reason that Ben won 15-games and Eli only won 1.

Ben had a better offensive line. To me that was the biggest difference. Advantage = Steelers.

Both QBs had great running games. Advatange = Steelers. But not by much.

Then there were the defenses. Advantage = Steelers.

The point is... A QB is NOT defined by his TEAMS win loss record. Unless you want to pin all the Giants losses on Eli?

That\'s exactly what you are doing with Brooks.

Rookie QB vs. rookie QB.

Veteran QB vs. veteran QB.

It makes no difference. Their supporting casts make a huge difference in the win/loss records.

We had the worst defense in the league and probably had the worst offensive line in the league.


[Edited on 29/1/2005 by GumboBC]

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Well, I am glad you brought up the rest of the teams. When the Giants the Steelers, ELI OUTPLAYED Ben with worse receivers, a worse line, and a much worse defense. His team almost won too. Go look it up. So Eli\'s and Ben\'s win/loss records mean poop to me. I WILL SAY AGAIN, EITHER IS BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE SO I WOULD TAKE EITHER ONE OVER LEON. If Eli could almost beat the number one team in the league with the number one D in the league with the crap he had around him, I have ZERO doubt he would be better than Brooks. ZERO. I already shot down that bad line bad defense stuff with Minny and the Rams, both in the playoffs, both won a game. Both have better qbs. You can spare me the same points I have already argued.

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Both also beat suspect teams in a weak conference in the 1st round. Both needed help from others to qualify. Both are no better than the Saints.

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And I think you may be stretching it a little when you say Culpepper and Bulger are better than Brooks. All of their turnover stats look frightingly similar.

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\"Let\'s face it, Leon can\'t do everything...\"

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Joe, so what you are saying is Culpepper, who woulda been the MVP OF THE LEAGUE with 39 tds W/O Randy Moss for half the season is not better than Leon? And Bulger who went 12-4 his first year as a starter and has been in the playoffs the last 3 years IS NOT better than Leon? With suspect teams? Beyond Moss, the Vikes have RARELY had another receiver. Definitely no pro bowl RBs. Deuce has gone, we still didn\'t go to the playoffs. Vikes have ALWAYS had a bad D, they still go to the playoffs. I am sorry Joe, I am gonna have to call BS on that. Tell me, would you trade AB for Culpepper straight up right now? Or Bulger? I would. I would also trade him for Carr, Leftwich, Palmer, Eli, Ben, Volek, Green, Hasselbek, Grossman, Delhomme, Brees, Maddox, Plummer, and Pennington among non hall of fame qbs currently playing.

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Trading AB straight up:

The YES group: (* = a QB i\'d really like to have)
Culpepper*
Green
Hasselbek
Brees*
Plummer
Pennington*

The No, cuz we need to get more outta the deal Group:
Carr
Leftwitch
Volek
Delhomme

The NO Group:
Palmer
Eli
Ben
Maddox
Grossman

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Nice breakdown Scotty. I appreciate your opinion but I will disagree as any qb listed, I would trade for AB straight up no strings attached.

Joe Bud, I also would like to know if you think the Vikes would have won more games had their best offensive player not been hurt half the year and had their best secondary player Winfield had not been hurt for several games? Also would the Rams have won more if Bulger had not missed two games that they lost with Chandler as the starter and tgheir coach saying the qb position \"held his team hostage?\" Then they BOTH would have had better records than us. How many games do you think the Saints would win without Horn? Very few i\'d bet. Also, you do realize the Rams would have beaten us on yet another red zone turnover by AB(he led the league among qbs ya know) had Aeneas Williams remembered how to intercept and not tipped the ball to Horn. It was right in his hands. Joe bailed AB out, again.

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Whodi, Deuce missed 3 games and was injured thereafter. Mightn\'t we have won more if not for that?

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As I said before, I would only trade Brooks for a better (Top % qb), Cullpepper and Brees would for well in N.O but that won\'t happen so keep Brooks until the Saints come acroos a better qb.
As far as trading Brooks for a Bledsoe type player who\'s at the end of his career doesn\'t make sense to me, and a rookie would set us back to a point that we would have to start from scratch, would I like to see a Brooks-Culpepper trade, of course but might as well forget about that
Botom line, it\'s Brooks or a rookie because I don\'t see a free-agent that is worth anything leaving their team


[Edited on 30/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]

[Edited on 31/1/2005 by LongTimeFan]

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I don\'t think so, cause this new offense doomed our team from jump. Taking the FB out of the equation for Deuce effectively ended his impact. WE ALL SAW how much better he ran with Karney in, yet they did it very little. Prime example, Seattle game week one. The team cause 3 turnovers in the first half, Deuce was still there, and we STILL could not score. Yet in the 4th quarter we were only down 14-7(yeah terrible defense) until our \"great\" qb threw an INT giving Seattle the ball IN THEIR OWN RED ZONE. So I guess we could blame the D for not covering AB\'s mistake and stopping the Seahawks from going 14 yards in the 4th quarter of a game where the offense did nothing, but I won\'t. So last year it woulda been a huge difference, not so much this year.

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That sure didn\'t help. Like Whodi said, it could be debated how much it hurt, too. We simply didn\'t utilize Deuce as well as we should have, and happy trails to McCarthy ... hope Barlow\'s ready for another down year.

But in fairness, the initial \"new offense\" was a disaster, probably the reason Deuce got hurt in the first place. Deuce returned earlier than he probably should\'ve, and looked slow and out of shape when he did get the ball. Yeah, he was still hurt, but he was about 10 lbs overweight, too.

BTW, couldn\'t the 49er\'s use a QB? One who already has a working relationship with the OC? (fingers crossed)

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I really want to believe that Nolan is smarter than that. But he is coming from Baltimore, which has no sense at all about QBs and he did hire McCarthy.

I do think that Leon has more trade value than most of his supporters do (ironically). I\'m pretty sure that to get #1 overall, we\'ll need to offer our #16. After that, I don\'t know what else we\'d get. Would they give up their 2nd rounder? Would they give us a good conditional pick for next year?

Maybe if we offered Leon and Pathon, we\'d get better value?

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If we WERE to get their number one for Leon, PAthon may draw a 3rd if included, who would we draft? Aaron Rodgers would be my first choice. QB for the next 12 years, hopefully. But I don\'t think the 49ers can afford both of them. Leon straight up for their first and a shot at Rodgers would be fantastic though.

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Plain an simple, will Leon get traded? Never. Why would another team trade their franchise quarterback for Aaron Brooks? I think Rattay is fine running that offense over there when healthy. Look at his numbers when he started and healthy. Pretty good if you ask me. He made Eric Johnson look great. Although I\'m not a Leon fan, we just need Deuce to rush for 1500 yards and we\'ll be fine. Bentley should be use to playing center and with Kendal and Holland, we should have one the the nastiest center guard combos in the league. Just leave Karney in to block also and our rushing game will be back to where it should be. Which equals more games won and Leon playing better himself.

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What we\'re trying to do is avoid paying a qb 6 mil a year just to manage the game basically, which is what AB supporters seem to want. Fix D, fix the line, fix this fix that so we take away more of AB\'s responsibility. Well, if he can\'t handle the responsibility his salary disctates, trade him or cut his salary. How muchdo you think he would have to say if they proposed he take a pay cut based on his performance? Selfish as he is, he would hold on until he was traded. We\'ll just get to it before him.

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Whodi, in response to your questions, I\'m still not convinced that Cullpepper and Bulger are better than Brooks. I think all 3 are of the same calibur...

I don\'t know which Vikes QB you\'ve been watching for the past 4-5 years, but the one I\'ve seen can be just as inconsistent as AB, if not worse. But if he has looked better to you, it\'s probably cause\' he\'s been playing in a system which matches his natural abilities and he hasn\'t been forced to be something he\'s not (can\'t say the same things for AB). And it doesn\'t hurt to have one of the league\'s tallest and fastest receivers on the squad...

As far as Bulger goes, I think you\'d agree that his receiving corp. is better and much more consistent than what AB has to work with. Also, you can use the argument that the Rams are consistent playoff contenders with Bulger behind center, but I can also shoot back and say that they\'ve yet to return to the Super Bowl with Bulger behind center as well. So technically, the success of that franchise has digressed since Bulger took over...

And no, I\'m not so sure that either team would\'ve done better than us record-wise, if their star players hadn\'t been hurt for certain periods of time. You must realize that the quality of coaching that both teams receive are very suspect...

And yes, the Rams probably would\'ve beaten us if Williams had made that pick. But I think the big picture is if they couldn\'t display a dominant performance against a team such as the one we support, then any aspect of that team shouldn\'t be considered any better than ours, especially at the QB position.

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Joe, Nice to meet you dude. But if you don\'t think a qb who would have won MVP if not for Peyton Manning with his best weapon hurt half the year is better than AB, you are in too deep for me man. Enjoy the upcoming season dude.

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I believe Culpepper is better than Brooks. Its debated how much, though.

Still, I believe if Culpepper were our QB, we\'d be an 8-8 team.

What was the Vikings record? OUCH!!

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I believe Culpepper is better than Brooks. Its debateable how much, though.

Still, I believe if Culpepper were our QB, we\'d be an 8-8 team.

What was the Vikings record? OUCH!!