About AB and the Saints...
 

Hey everybody, I'm a newbie. Before I start, I'd just like to say that I've been visiting this board just to read you guys' contributions for quite some time now and I must say that it's refreshing to see such civility and intellectualism. It's quite a switch from the idiocy and barbarism of the nola.com board where I frequently post...

Anyway, I'd just like to weigh in my 2 cents about the AB/Saints situation and how alot of you seem to share the sentiment that AB has been "holding us back"...

Judging from a good number of posts I've read here, I've figured that some of you would've been content with just seeing this team limp, trip and fall into the playoffs in any of these last 4 miserable seasons without any legitimate shot at making it to the big dance...

I, personally, would never be excited about any Saints team entering the postseason if I didn't feel that they could actually go the distance, and I wouldn't have felt that way in any of the past 4 seasons, if they had qualified for the playoffs. That's why I can honestly say that I'm nowhere near as disappointed as most other Saints fans are about our situation. This team is just too weak when it comes to playcalling on both sides of the ball to be serious contenders. ...

And I know that AB has become the scapegoat for all this team's struggles, and I don't think it's fair. Although he does deserve some criticism, for the most part I've seen a QB that has done MORE than his fair share to get this team in playoff contention, even with the boneheaded mistakes he's made during his tenure here...

Refering back to the 02' season for instance, I saw a QB who tried his hardest to help get our 10th win against the Vikes. We scored 30+ points in that game and STILL lost. The next week against the Bengals, a simple reception by either Boo Williams or Mike Lewis would've been 2 TDs (and those particular passes that they missed couldn't have been thrown more perfectly) which would've gotten us our 10th win as well...

And some posters here will make the strange comment that AB has not been able to post a season better than 8-8 or 9-7. Well, has Duece been able to do any better? How bout' Horn? Howard? A TEAM record is reflective of the play of the entire TEAM, not just the QB, and the entire TEAM is responsible for any record they finish with...

So I guess my question to the AB haters is; What kinda success do you think this team would've accomplished even if we had made it to the postseason in any or all of these last 4 seasons? Do you actually think this team could've made it to the SuperBowl? I surely don't. In fact, I think we would've lost in any of the 1st rounds...

Say what you want about AB, but he is certainly either the best or 2nd best QB that this franchise has ever witnessed, and he deserves to be kept here atleast until his current contract has expired. But that's just how I feel. Feel free to comment.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Hi Joe!

I kinda feel the same way. I think that Haz got a pass but had to make changes in order to stay.

But would Benson pay the money needed to get someone better if he did get rid of the head coach?

The talent is there we just need someone to get it out. Nobody could possibly draft that bad could they?

About AB and the Saints...
 

Hi SC! I see you\'re new too. Thanks for responding...

Actually I think Haslett is the least of our problems as well. He\'s known throughout the league as a quality coach. I think Benson and Loomis are more of a problem than he is, and he could use a major coaching staff overhaul. I like the fact that McCarthy is on his way out, but Venturi should be gone as well.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Venturi is on a short leash you would think with the addition of Willy Robinson .

You could see a little fire at the end of the season and thats what paused the axe of Venturie??????

But like I said \" Very short leash\"{

About AB and the Saints...
 

Oh yeah, the new \"senior assistant\" to the defense. I think it was a good move. It surely goes to show that Haz doesn\'t have as much faith in Venturi\'s scheme as some might\'ve once believed. I think it also means that Benson was dead set against getting rid of Venturi for some odd reason. But obviously Haz had to do something different.

About AB and the Saints...
 

With what he has done and improvment made Haz should have been let go, but he was \'nt so this should be a pretty loose year from him, right? Yeah right! lol

About AB and the Saints...
 

Heya JB and SC.

Welcome to the board.

JB, let me just say that I\'m sympathetic to your view. However, there isn\'t a lot of evidence that AB can get the job done. My \"faith\" lies with you, but my head is telling me that AB is a middle of the road QB at most. I think with some improvements on D and the OLine, we can make it deep into the playoffs. I am skeptical that THIS team can compete for a SB.

I have to say that, right now, I\'m convinced that Haz can only coach underdog teams. Even next year in most games we will not be underdogs.

As for this year, I think that if we\'d made the playoffs, we would have won our first game (riding our new found confidence and four game winning streak), but after that we would have been in serious trouble. We could not compete with the running offense of Pitt nor the meticulous precision of the Patirots.

We NEED a strong offseason!

Either way, welcome again to our board. I\'m glad you\'ve been enjoying it for awhile. We\'ll look forward to your work here with us.

[Edited on 29/1/2005 by JKool]

About AB and the Saints...
 

Indeed. As a confirmed old \"AB hater\" (I\'m bittersweetly responsible for the Leon fiasco), I\'ve at least gotta agree with that logic. There\'s more than one rotten apple in our basket.

I think most of the anti-AB crowd realizes he\'s far from our only problem. In fact, most of us will admit he\'s actually played some fine football during his tenure with the Saints. Our problem lies largely with AB\'s inability to perform well on a consistent basis. There are variables to affect this outcome, sure, but every QB in the NFL has to deal with those same variables.

These guys are pros, they\'re doing it for the money. All one needs to ask in return is that they hold up their end of the bargain. AB does not perform to the level of his pay, no matter how great he thinks (and reminds us) he is. We could get a QB of his calibre far cheaper, so why don\'t we?

And BTW, welcome :newbie: folks, glad to have ya\'

About AB and the Saints...
 

I disagree. I don\'t think there\'s a QB who performs on a consistent basis who has the problems AB has to contend with.

But, first, who are the QB\'s who perform on a consistent basis?

Favre? Nope. He screws up as much or more than Brooks? Surly you have seen Favre play?!

Trent Green? Nope. Did you watch him play this year? His 22 TDs and 15 Ints were hardly any better than Brooks. And the Chiefs only won 7- games.

Jake Delhomme. Nope. He played terribly for about the first 8 games and threw 15 Ints of his own and his team did worse than the Saints. The Panthers only won 7 games.

Mark Bulger. Nope. His 22 TDs and 14 Ints are hardly the definition of consistency and his team only won 8-games.

Matt Hasselbeck? Nope. He\'s far from the consistent QB you are looking for.



I believe AB\'s inconsistent play has MORE to do with the inconsistency surrounding him. That\' doesn\'t mean AB doesn\'t throw some ill-advised passes or make bad throws.

How many consistent QB do you know who have the worst defense, a terrible offensive line, and receivers who drop the ball on a consistent basis?

Peyton? McNabb? Culpepper? Who?

About AB and the Saints...
 

P.S. -

Welcome to B&G Joe_Buddens.


It\'s nice to see folks who know football. Looking foward to you being here a long time. :)


[Edited on 29/1/2005 by GumboBC]

About AB and the Saints...
 

:casstet: Here we go again...

As usual, you took a line or two out of a post and ignored the rest. That\'s fine, I expect no less.

That\'s okay ... he believes that, too.

I never brought up these guys, I don\'t even like most of them. But you want to argue about them, so I guess I\'m your huckleberry...

Favre - SUPER BOWL win, hasn\'t missed a game since 1992, 61.5 career comp %, almost 50K career passing yds, 376 TD\'s to 226 INT\'s, a career passer rating of 87.4 (92.4 this season) dispite playing under the conditions in Green Bay. Not too shabby. Think Brooks will ever achieve this much?

Green - 60.4 comp %, almost 20K yds, 133 TD\'s & 82 INT\'s in 5 1/2 years as a starter. 89.2 career passer rating (95.2 this year). All this despite his best receiver being a TE. Plays in often cold and windy KC.

He-who-shall-not-be-named - SUPER BOWL appearance. A 58.6 comp %, almost 3,900 yds, 29 TD\'s & 15 INT\'s with an 87.3 passer rating this season. This on a team whose injuries made it look like a victim of the bubonic plague. 3 RB\'s, the #1 WR, and a handful of linemen all suffered sidelining injuries and many others played hurt. Plays outdoors.

Bulger - oh look, another castaway! 64.6 comp %, almost 10K yds, 57 TD\'s & 42 INT\'s in 2 1/2 years as a starter. 89.7 career passer rating (93.7 this season). Played behind one of the worst O-lines ever to take the field this season in St. Louis. A couple of them were even called out of retirement in a weak attempt to fill the holes. Virtually no help from the running game. Still made the playoffs. Plays on turf in a dome.

Aww, c\'mon Billy. I\'m not even gonna respond to that...

Now let\'s talk Leon:

Brooks - proving his greatness with a career 56.5 comp %, 16K yds, 107 TD\'s & 67 INT\'s in 4 1/4 years as a starter. 81.5 career passer rating (79.5 this year). I\'m gonna go light and not even LIST his fumbles. Less playoff wins than any of the QB\'s you mentioned. O-line isn\'t great, but isn\'t the worst, either. Plays on turf in a dome.

Well ... Culpepper, P. Manning, Bulger, Favre, and Green all play on teams with pretty suspect defenses.

SEE ABOVE: Bulger. Green Bay and Minnesota\'s lines weren\'t spectacular this year either.

Well, you mentioned Hasselbeck. Seattle has been the undisputed ball-dropping kingdom for a couple of years now. With the exception of Randy Moss, you\'ll notice Culpepper suffered through alot of dropped passes himself.

Billy, I only used players YOU brought up. Fire up some of that old Gumbo logic now!

I can hardly wait... :icon_eyesroll:




[Edited on 29/1/2005 by mutineer10]

About AB and the Saints...
 

Eat him up mutey. It\'s funny to me how Gumbo is eaten up by these SAME arguments in another thread, so then he tries them on someone else. That\'s amazing. But just like the Saints, if it doesn\'t work, keep trying it until people go along with it as truth, no matter how unsuccessful.

New guys welcome. I see you guys are behind our QB, and more power to you. Keep with it, there need to be at least some faithful.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Three things:

(1) How does being in a SB or even winning one show that the inconsistency around a QB also makes him inconsistent? I thought that was Billy\'s point. I don\'t see why an inconsistent QB couldn\'t win the SB (I DO see why it might be unlikely). Imagine a team with an inconsistent running game, inconsistent defense, inconsistent passing game, and an inconsistent special teams. On any given Sunday any two of these five things could be relatively poor and the team could win - it really just is a matter of all of them not being off at the same time.

(2) Mutey, I really liked this:
I thought it to be a very apt quote.
PS - I laughed hard at the \"carp\" thing when you brought it up again.

(3) New guys, it is good to see some spunk (ha ha, I said spunk) around here. I suggest, though, that before you get into the thick of it, you go back and AT LEAST skim through some of the recent arguments against Brooks. Whodi and BMG (among others) have put up a good set of arguments to this effect. While I still don\'t agree with them, they have made me change my view slightly on Brooks.

About AB and the Saints...
 

welcome too from a new guy myself...

anyhoo, i would like to see someone new behind center. not cuz ab is a total bum. there are worse indeed. i put him in the middle of the pack sum total, erratic in overall performance. when playing the cap game tho a key to success is the performance in ratio to pay. hence the pats moving a milloy or tebucky but signing dillon for example. being 7%+ of the team payroll i just dont see ab as value with the past five years of performance. my thoughts of money better spent (of course you have to actually do that) is to contend making better use of that 6-7mil. journeymen dilfer and brad johnson in recent super bowls come to mind as good teams with hohum signal callers. there is still a couple of years of window for this team to make a run before a rebuild will be required. the cap game requires it. develop a youngster for a couple of years or target a franchise 1st rounder when that transition comes.

as far as the best or second best in saints quarterback factory history (dave wilson, jim everett, billy joe\'s, etc), er, that\'s kinda like saying who were the top two qb\'s in the bengals history? 90% would say boomer. why though? at least to the big game. ken anderson was probably better but struggled with some archie-like teams.

About AB and the Saints...
 

my only problem with AB is the fact that he seems o be immature. he doesnt seem to lead the team the way he should. i never thoguth this until towars the end of the season. i think he has the abiltity to be good but thats up to him. i do think we need him for at least one more year

About AB and the Saints...
 

Thanks for your contrbutions everyone...

To sum up my continued support for AB in words, I guess I feel that his inconsistencies has proven only to be one of the most minor problems with this team, and you can\'t fix the bulk of the problem by getting rid of a minor one...

To use an analogy to describe AB, this team and it\'s fanbase, it\'s as if we have this truck with busted out headlights, a motor that\'s nearly ran it\'s course, a radio and tape deck that isn\'t operable, and no heater and air conditioning, yet we choose to forever complain about how it needs a new paint job or something...

I still believe that he will be successful in this league with the rite coaching and supporting cast around him. And I have a weird feeling that we\'d immediately see this if we were to ever trade him.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Well put joe! Welcome

:yourock:

About AB and the Saints...
 

Bulger is terrible!!!!!!!!!!

About AB and the Saints...
 

I agree. I watched the rams a couple of times expecting to get really T\'d off that we let him go. To the contrary I was always left asking myself what the big deal with him is. To me he seems like he\'s got a good knowledge of his offense, but his arm isn\'t there and he tends to float his passes downfield. If his WRs weren\'t so adept at pushing off, I mean, getting open, he\'d have a much worse Td/Int ratio.

About AB and the Saints...
 

He\'s better than AB. So if Bulger is terrible, that makes AB................

About AB and the Saints...
 

..another one...

...well... don\'t know why I get myself into this... train wreck syndrome..

..ok, new guy...

..first off, \"Brooks haters\"?... name calling right out of the gate?

..so you are a Brooks lover... ok... read the statement below:

\"Brooks won our only playoff game in history\"...
True or false?

About AB and the Saints...
 

If you were right, that\'d make him worse than Bulger. You\'re not though.

So, what starting QB in your opinion is not worse than AB?

About AB and the Saints...
 

Josh McCown, Ken Dorsey, Harrington is about the same as AB, Testaverde, Ramsey is about even, Boller but he has ZERO receivers and Heap was hurt all year so I reserve true judgment on that one, Feeley or Fiedler though each play with more heart, Bledsoe is horrible if he doesn\'t have all day. That\'s about it.

And I am right about Bulger. 12-4 last year, suspect D, suspect line. Sounds familiar? Bulger, career passer rating of 89.7. AB 81.5. Yup, WORSE than Bulger.

About AB and the Saints...
 

It seems to me that most people are forgetting about the biggest reason why we should unload this clown. Suppose you are Joe Horn, try to do it just for a moment. You pick up the paper and read that your QB has just said that he is a great QB on a not-so-good team, or whatever it was that he actually said. To me, that should\'ve been the last comment he ever made as a member of the Saints. How are you going to win back the support of his teammates after making such a horrific comment such as that. And that is not even the only time he stuck his foot in his mouth this year. What about the time he said that there was false comradery on this team. You couple the fact that he is making comments like that with the bonehead mistakes that he makes on a regular basis, (which is the only thing consistent about his play), and what you have is a guy that really needs to be shown the door. I can\'t see how anybody can ignore these things and think that next year, or the year after that, is going to be any better. If he were playing in a market like NYC, he would have been run out of town on a rail, no doubt about it. Sheez, man, sometimes I wonder what he has that makes people simply overlook all of the ugliness.

About AB and the Saints...
 

saints lb that was my point exactly. the guy has a problem with leadership. as a team how do you follow a guy that talks about him being great and the team he plays for being just ok. mean while he says that the opposing qb plays for a great team and is just an ok qb. he has a problem and i would like to see him be here one more year but no longer. he has worn his welcome. i for one have had enough of this guy after those comments. but we still need him for one more year then cut our losses

About AB and the Saints...
 

As if Joe Horn hasn\'t stuck his foot in his mouth enough times to probably be the only player on the team to actually identify with AB.

So, here we are embarking on yet another line of \"get rid of AB\" threads. Sentiment for \'05 seems to be \"he\'s too arrogant...just look at these comments he made.\" In \'04 it was \'He fumbles too much.\" In \'03 it was he\'s got no leadership skills.\" In \'02 it was \"why does he have to smile after throwing an interception?\"

Sure, he\'s made some boneheaded decisions. I am more than aware of that. But the people that have wanted him gone - believe me, every year there are people just as adamant as Saint_LB and Whoodi, that want him gone already - always ignore that he has improved every year since he\'s been here.

The improvement certainly has not been enough but it is a bit of encouragement that he might get over the hump. I\'ll say again, though, until the org can bring in a viable alternative, I will be for keeping him as the starter.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Improved every year? At what, getting dumber? You just outlined the problems AB has had EVERY year. So what you are saying Scotty is, eventually he will run out of ways to screw up and put it all together, so stick with him. No thanks.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Again, don\'t jump on me too hard because I think I see your side more than you see mine.

He has improved. TD to INT ratio is pretty good. He\'s done better holding onto the ball.

You said yourself he has an 80 something QB rating. Certainly you\'d give another QB a few extra points for having two pathetic Tackles supposedly blocking for him, right? And my personal opinion is it took 8 games for the center of the line to gell.

He hasn\'t shown me anything that would make me think he can definitely lead this team to a superbowl, but neither have I seen anyone else potentially coming here that would give me that feeling either.

Hey, change can be good and since we\'re gonna change OC\'s, now might be the time to get a new QB. I just want somebody that imo that will at least help us win as many games. Fix the D and we\'re a 10 win team easy.

About AB and the Saints...
 

You keep saying help us win as many games, I don\'t think AB helps us win that many, if any. He posts nice numbers, virtually in garbage time. I have said MANY times that out of the last 4 wins, which equals 16 quarters, he played like poo for 11, and that was when all the excuses everybody had for him went away. Outside the Tampa game, the line blocked better, the D played MUCH better, special teams stepped up, and he still looked like crap more than he looked even decent. I am tired of that. But it\'s all good.

About AB and the Saints...
 

scottyro his best int to td ratio cam last year. that was also his worse year for fumbles. he hasnt put it all together yet

About AB and the Saints...
 

Oh yeah, I forgot to address that. Thanks spk. :thumbsup:

About AB and the Saints...
 

Yet we won all four. I wonder how many we\'d have won had those units played like that all year. I\'m think 10 minimum and a playoff trip. The bashers would still be calling for his head.

I guess it comes down to this for me. Plenty of basher say all the time that he is crap, yet they want to trade him and get at least a 2nd round pick. Hello? If he\'s crap, he ain\'t worth a second round pick.

So, basically, i sit here everyday trying to figure out that paradox. Which is made 1000 times more difiicult when some guy wants to point out the weaknesses in my examples rather than the main points. :cool:

Yeah, 25, I know. But the thing is every QB has fluctuations from year to year. I didn\'t mean to imply that it would get better every year., but that he improved it and even this year didn\'t degrade into an abysmal stat.

About AB and the Saints...
 

whether for ousting or keeping i think it would be some kinda magnificent treatise to convince people he has improved every year for 5 years. yes, i believe the win/loss record and passer ratings show no improvement and inconsistency. people see beyond the numbers though- the fumble at the cardinals goal line, the backwards pass, the assinine statements. carr is on a still poor team that might possibly contend next year. people are behind him no matter what the stats cuz they are going in the right direction. harrington is on a still poor team that might possibly contend next year. there is quite a growing negative buzz about him though. why? not wins or losses, not stats, just the proven product on the field. this is what i sense about brooks not just on this board but on others, the press, and from columnists and commentators i respect. teams can contend because of the qb or in spite of them. i think his 5 year track record and the sense of where he is at or going doesnt justify his contract cost, much less the 10 yr/10mil extension variety.

About AB and the Saints...
 

Nice point Kelley. Sorry I didn\'t read this sooner.