Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Those of you that have been here a while probably can remember me complaining about the offensive line's PASS blocking way back in 2003.

That was the same year Deuce rushed for 1,600 yards.

Anyway, after every game, many folks would come here and begin to tell us why they thought the Saints lost.

And......... just about every Sunday I would complain that the offensive line was doing a terrible job of blocking.

But, many of you would point to the stats Deuce was putting up in the running game. And I'd say that had nothing to do with the PASS blocking.

It really frustrated me that some of you weren't talking about the poor blocking by the offensive line in 2003.

What does this have to do with anything, you ask?

Well, I'm going to try and tie in a few points here...

1. In 2003 we ran an offense that included a fullback and one tighted as our base offense.

2. In 2004 McCarthy deciced he wanted to go to the "spread" offense".

Last off-season many of us dicussed the "spread" offense that was going to be used in 2004. Many of us envisioned a high flying, big play offense.

But, there was ONE big thing that prevented the "spread" offense from being effective.

And that problem was the offensive line.

In 2003 the offensive line didn't look as bad as 2004. But, I believe the reason they didn't look as bad was because the offensive line had a fullback and a TE to help out in the pass protection. And sometimes they even had 2 tightends to help with pass protection.

That wasn't the case in 2004 and we got a very CLEAR look at just how ineffective our offensive tackles were. Gandy and Riley just couldn't get the job done without any help.

Brooks really got killed against some of the better pass rushing teams. The first Buc and Panther game comes to mind.

Even though McCarthy could see Gandy and Riley letting their man come clean to our QB, he insisted on giving them no help blocking.

It really baffled me as to why McCarthy didn't call more max-protect when it was obvious our offensive line couldn't get it done.

Well.....in the last game against the Panthers, McCarthy did go max-protect in the passing game and the Panthers great pass rushers were really ineffective. Peppers and crew didn't sack AB even one time, if memory serves me correctly.

This is kind of long, so bear with me........

I beleive good coaches are good because they can hide their teams weaknesses and play to their strengths. In other words, the good coahes don't wait for 8 or 9 games before they come up with a way to fix a weakness.

Instead of McCarthy going to an offesive alignment that would help our O-line pass block, he insisted on trying to spread the field with 3 and 4 receiver sets.

While have 3 and 4 receivers on the field gives a QB more options to throw to, it doesn't do very much good if your QB only has 2 or 3 seconds to make a decision.

I'd rather have 2 receivers and 5 or 6 seconds to let of of those receivers come open.

This is getting too long, so, I'm going to wrap this up.

Some of you might point out that McCarthy reguarly used a 2 tightend set. But that was mainly in the running game. In the passing game he played the "spread" offense for the majority of the passing plays.

And I believe that might be one reason Haslett was upset with McCarthy.

Thoughts?













[Edited on 4/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

I suspect McCarthy\'s exit has more to do with predictability than pass-blocking. Though our O-Line was definitely not the best in the league, I don\'t think it is as bad as you make it out to be. There are a lot of other teams out there with much worse lines and good pass-rushing team abused them even worse than they abused us.

There is no question that on some plays people came virtually untouched at our QB. It is also true to say that that happens in every football game to every QB on every team. It is also true that MOST QBs don\'t often have more than 2-3 seconds to get rid of the ball. It\'s rare to see it be any longer unless the defense is only rushing four. In those cases, QBs often have more time and when I saw other teams rushing only four against us our, QB had more time.

I think, as I have said before, that AB is slow off the line and he takes longer to \"see and understand\" the play develop. It simply appears to me that it takes him longer to interpret what is going on. If what I think I am seeing is right, then it will always appear that he is hurried. It\'s not a function of a bad line, merely an average line with a QB that takes just a bit longer to adjust to the situation. To me, with his happy feet, scrambling into the pass rush, throwing off his back foot, etc.; he never looks comfortable - even on plays when he had 6 seconds to throw the ball (i.e. \"All day\").

Now, all that being said. I think one of our most urgent needs for an upgrade is at OT. That\'s where the best pass rushers in the league play against and Gandy just isn\'t what he used to be. I think Riley\'s problem is weight gain and that seems to be epidemic on this team. I think if we got some coaching in here that could inspire the players, Riley may be savable.

However even with an upgrade at OT, the QB still will not normally have a lot of time to sit back there and figure out what to do. The QB has to know the offense, be able to see all his options, make a decision, and be throwing the ball, all in about 3 seconds on most plays. If that doesn\'t happen the play breaks down and then the only way to succeed is for your playmakers to make plays.

We seem to be in short supply on that last point.... not sure why, unless the \"strict discipline\" implemented this year had an effect on the way our receivers run their routes which subsequently had a detrimental effect on \"sandlot\" style foorball. Too many unknowables to be sure.

Just my opinion.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

You make it sound like I\'m in the minority when I say our offensive line was one of the worst in the NFL.

Well, it ain\'t just me. I bet if we take a poll here on B&G that most will agree that our offesive line was one of the worst in the NFL when it came to run blocking and pass blocking.

Furthermore, the Times Picauyne has said the same thing. Mike Detillier has said the same things. And numerous other media sources have said the same thing.

That\'s your opinion, and you\'re entitled to it. But when I watch Brady, Peyton, and some of the best QBs, I see \'em getting much more time to throw than our QB.

Now, I\'m not suggesting that Brooks is great at making quick throws. And I\'m not suggesting Brooks doesn\'t hold the ball too long at times.

But, I\'ve got to lay blame where blame belongs. And the offesive line and McCarthy\'s insisitence on giving Gandy and Riley no help blocking deserves plenty of blame, IMO.

There ain\'t much anyone can say about Brooks that hasn\'t been said. So, I hear what you\'re saying about AB. I just think you are making AB sound much worse than what he is..

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

I think Frenzy is absolutely right(what a surprise). NFL Qbs do not get generally more than a couple of seconds to read a play, and unload the ball. The difference with Peyton and Brady than with us is that OPPOSING TEAMS ARE AFRAID of Brady or Manning burning them if they rush more than 4. Look at what happened to Pittsburgh against New England. They Blitz Brady and in less than two seconds each time he had a bomb off to a receiver WAY downfield. Noone we play worries about that from our QB so they rush and blitz more, which in turn confuses our QB which in turn leads to indecision, then pressure, than everyone pooping on our line. When teams rushed 4, AB had time. He still looked unsettled and indecisive, except for the occasional flashes of looking good. Nice analysis Frenzy. When a team is not afraid of your QB making decisions to beat you, they feel free to unload the house rushing the ball. That will make any O-line look terrible, especially an average one like ours. I agree with the assessment that they were bad, but not worse in the league as it often appears people wanna make it to be.

Anyone who wants AB to have 6 seconds every play to throw the ball(where I still doubt it would do any good) must also believe you should rush for 1500 yards every year with 15 TDs and your receivers should put up 100 catches with 1200 yards and 13 TDs every year. These things are just NOT gonna happen EVERY time. If generally 2-3 seconds is not enough time for AB to unload the ball, he needs to go and we need to find someone who can.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Maybe I\'m in the minority here.........BUT...........

What it comes down to me is:

Facts vs. Specuation:

Speculaiton:
1. Brooks\' leadership skills are what\'s holding the team back.
2. Brooks is holding the ball too long and not hitting open receivers.
3. Defenses don\'t worry about AB throwing the ball and therefore blitz the hell out of him.

Fact:
1. The offensive line sucks.
2. The defense sucks.

So, what do you fix first? What you know to be true? Or things that you are just speculating on?

Me? Well, I think I\'ll fix the KNOWN problems and see how everything else shakes out?

Car won\'t start? Don\'t buy a new car. Look under the hood and check your battery...

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

But if that car thinks it\'s great and can run without the battery, you need a new car. ;)

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Fact and speculation, interesting. I believe it is fact that we don\'t have the best O-Line in the league. I believe it is fact we don\'t have the best Defense in the league. I believe it is fact we don\'t have the best coaching.

I don\'t believe saying anything on our team \"sucks\" is fact - rather opinion. I believe that there is certainly room to improve everywhere on this team - across the board.

I still disagree with your analysis that our O-line was terrible. I simply didn\'t see that. I saw that our O-line is not great, about middle of the road for the league. There are many that are better. There are many that are worse. I definitely think I would spend some money fixing it.

By the same token I see that the QBs that you mentioned are the best in the league, period. I certainly don\'t see Aaron Brooks in that light. Those QBs you mentioned also get blitzed and hurried. It does not appear to rattle them and they appear capable of audible-ing to the check-down guy. Something I so rarely see AB do, that I literally stand and cheer each time he does it.

Those QBs you mentioned are experts at seeing a defense, and reacting to it extremely quickly. I am equally certain that enemy Defensive Coordinators also see that and plan accordingly, much as they analyze our QB\'s abilities and plan whatever defenses they think will work against us.

It seems that we get blitzed a lot. I notice that the QBs you mentioned do not. I have not fully decided if that is the fault of our O-Line or our QB - I think it is combination of both.

If I were to place my self in the shoes of an enemy defensive coordinator, here\'s how I see it: I would probably blitz the Saints a lot, as well, run blitzes on first down and short yardage, and pass blitzes whenever I have them in a long yardage . I see that their O-line is only average and my blitzers will get there. I see that their QB is flighty and uncomfortable during blitzes. I see that their QB takes a little longer to make decisions and often does not seem to know which direction the blitz is coming from until it is too late.

Considering what I see, I believe blitzing us is a great strategy to use against us because of the O-line\'s only average play and the QBs seeming lack of ability to read and react quickly.

Just my opinion.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Just blitz on the opposite side that Joe is lined up on.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Plain and simple...we should have done what NE does...before TE\'s and Rb\'s do their route they chip somebody...I guess that wasn\'t in that telephone book he called a playbook.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

frenzy i would have to disagree on our pass blocking and on riley. from what i saw this year it appeared that what opposing d\'s were doing to us was blitzing. and when they did boy that had success. our o line was a real problem this year. arron has his own problems. as far as riley the reason i disagree with you isnt because of his weight. i had read somewhere (it may have been nola.com or on the way we hear it link on the website) that riley is a huge cancer in the locker room. that he has been in arguments and fights with several guys and that his work ethic is no good. as much as i agree we do need to replace gandy i would first replace that guy. then worry about gandy. but i do agree we need a stud tackle. we need to go and get one this year

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Here is a link to an interesting way to rate OLines. Unfortunately, what you\'ll find here is only a mid-season grade:

http://www.fftoday.com/articles/wald..._mid_oline.htm

Our line was ranked 21st. That\'s not good.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Not good, but also not LAST Kool. And if that is mid-season, the point at which we most complained about the O-line was EARLY in the season. So if we were THAT bad in the beginning of the year and we were still 21st, I guarantee we prob ended the year better. Sends to lend more credence to the argument the line was not as bad as people wanna make it out to be. Thanks for helping to dispell that myth also. ;)

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Well, Whodi, I certainly agree that they weren\'t worst in the league, but being last isn\'t the only way they can be bad. They are bad

I have two things to say about this thogh:

(1) Remember those STL and MIN lines that you claimed were as bad or worse than a ours? STL is ranked 6th and MIN is ranked 16th. You can draw your own conclusions from this.

(2) Just as with turnovers, aggregate turnovers are a sign that something is bad, but there is a second dimension that matters here - when and where they occured. Thus, we might say that the times our OLine made its mistakes matters. Third down false starts, holding on our big runs, etc. My point: an aggregate statistical score (like the one I posted - being 21st) only tell part of the story.

I agree that this stat has implications for those who think our line was THAT bad, but it certainly wasn\'t a good line by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, as it is scored, we\'re a mere 7.5 points ahead of the worst ranked line and we\'re a full 10 points behind the 3rd best line and almost 15 behind the 1st. The scores fell between 73 and 95, thus each point represents a significant difference.

Anyway, I\'m not sure that this says much, but it indicates the line was not even in the top 60%. That too me sounds like a poor offensive line.

As for the idea that we came together later in the year, I\'m not sure I buy that. Sure the line played slightly better then, but they were still a sore spot (mostly our Defense improved IMO), and for our rank to improve, it has to be the case that the other teams OLines didn\'t also improve over the last four games.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

PS - I don\'t remember anyone saying they were the worst OL in the league.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Um, the claim to worst o-line in the league was made several times. That was the whole point for me making post after post about teams that were worse.

Also. if you read what it said for St.Louis and Minny, here. i\'ll post it so noone needs to click the link again.

for St. Louis. And for Minny:

So I think that takes absolutely nothing away from my arguments of their lines being as bad as ours. As a matter of fact, had Deuce not gotten hurt our line probably would have rated higher as well. So as I felt before, this claim of how terrible our line was is definitely unfounded. Just like the claim on the D(last in yards about 15th in points, what\'s more important) and about the drops.




[Edited on 5/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

My bad then. I didn\'t see it anywhere here, and I didn\'t recall anyone making the claim. I\'ll take your word for it, but I think that might be an overly literal reading of what they said.

(2) I did read what it said about the other lines. Either you think this ranking is ok, in which case we are 21st and MIN is 16 and STL 6, or you think this ranking is wrong, in which case it doesn\'t support ANY view. I don\'t think you can have both. I\'m currently leaning toward it isn\'t a good ranking.

(3) I don\'t understand what you are saying about the Defense.

(4) It is my view that our line ranks in the bottom half to bottom third in the league. Is that an unreasonable statement? If it isn\'t, then our line is a serious problem.

(5) It is also my view that the play of our OLine was terribly inconsistent (with the exception of Riley who was just poor almost all the time). Aggregate stats will mask that. Is this view unreasonable?

(6) If the OLine is playing poorly, which appears to me to be a fair assumption, does that or does that not affect the play of our skilled players? If it does, then just as a great set of skilled players can increase how an OLine looks, a poor OLine will decrease how good the skilled players look. If it does not, then the claim made about MIN seems to invalidate these rankings (since the play of the skilled players should not be used to evaluate OLines).

(7) I\'m not sure what is at issue here, since the common consensus of people who saw many games and are knowledgeable about football think that our OTs are an area of primary need. Is that false or incorrect in some way?

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Again, you are getting off of the meaning of what people have been posting here. Just like Frenzy said,

The point is being made that yes the line was not good, but people are making it seem like they killed the team. We KNOW OT needs to be upgraded, and I have made several posts to that affect. The point was that we were not as bad as people made it seem, which was worst in the league. We weren\'t, and like I said, had there been a final ranking I am about certain we would be higher than 21. I would rather be 21 out of 32 than 32 right? Noone is saying that is good and we should do nothing, what we are saying is people should stop trying to make it seem like they doomed the team into oblivion.

And forgive me for digressing, but why is Aaron Brooks at the College Players skills challenge and being allowed to hold a mic?

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Oh, and sorry about that defense thing. I was typing here and reading a post from another forum and totally had a brain fart. I was gonna make a point about the D, but that wasn\'t it. My bad.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

I don\'t know the formula to use in derterming who has the worst offensive line. But I don\'t recall seeing any team who had a worse offensive line than ours.


I suppose some other teams had pitiful offensive lines too. But, ours was not only bad, it was awful.

I can\'t tell you how many times I screamed when one of our offensive linemen jumped offsides. Or had a holding penalty. Or let his man come clean to the QB. Or got Deuce killed in the backfield. Or didn\'t pick up a blitz.

And then Le Charles Bentley really had his problems early on snapping the damn ball.

All in all, it was a disaster. It was horrible.

[Edited on 5/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Does the previous post show you where we are coming from Kool?

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

In fact I saw a piece during the season that pointed out that Daunte Culpepper\'s offense was predicated on having 5-7 second pockets designed to let the receivers get down the field.

SFIAH

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

I\'ve seen Culpepper sit back there and read a book!!

I\'ve been criticizing this offesive lines poor pass blocking for 2 years.

My dad is the biggest Brooks basher in the world. I regularly watch the Saints games, as well as other games, with my dad.

To prove a point to my dad, we counted how many seconds Brooks has from the time the ball is snapped to the time when Brooks HAS to move. It\'s usually 3 seconds. About 75% of the time, Brooks HAS to move or he WILL get sacked.

Then, me and my dad have compared the time Peyton Manning (which is my dads idol) has from the time the ball is snapped to the time he has to move.

Manning regularly gets 5 seconds or more. And I\'ve done this same experiment for Brady and a lot of other QBs.

And another thing I\'ve noticed is Brooks generally doesn\'t have any room to step up and avoid the pass rush.

Now, there are times when Brooks doesn\'t do what he should and gets himself in trouble.

But, leaving Brooks out of it, our offensive line isn\'t providing enough time..

I just don\'t understand why folks are even attempting to stand up for our offensive line.

It\'s bad. Really. Some of you need to get past Aaron Brooks and smell the coffee. Or something.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

I didn\'t read the entirety of this thread so take my comments with that.

I don\'t see why there is a need to quibble over whose o-line was worse. Regardless of what another team might have done with a bad o-line, it was plainly obvious most of the season that our o-line sucked - especially in pass protections and in short yardage rushing situations.

AB rarely ever got adequate time to throw. I complained about that in the preseason and I complained early on. I think they improved - especially Bentley. I think they worked many of the snapping bugs out.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Whodi, check.

Billy, the way it was calculated is included with the link, including arguments for why it should be calculated that way.

Scotty, our line was a problem and it was bad, no matter how you slice it up. However, it is unlikely they were the worst.

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

Billy,

I did want to thank you for coming back here and shouldering the load against the BMGAAC (At All Costs) crowd. Frankly I just got tired of arguing.

The car analogy above struck a chord with me. I really feel that Brooks is like a busted headlight in the car: somewhat troublesome but not so damaging to the overall system as to put as the sole concern.

What none of the BMGAAC crowd won\'t own up to are the fact that Brooks numbers are good enough to get the job done. Name every NFL QB who has had a minimum of 20 TD passes and 3500+ yards over the last 4 seasons. Guess what? You\'ll find that it\'s a very very very short list.

I hold on to a single fact: The Saints in the last 4 years are 20-8 when the team holds the opposition to less than 21 points including 4-0 in the last 4 games.

Brooks isn\'t perfect. I wish he would keep his yap shut first and foremost.

But I float in and out of the continual debate because it gets old.

It looks like we\'re standing pat with Haslett, Venturi, and Brooks.

So now what?

SFIAH

Pass Blocking and McCarthy?
 

SaintFanInATLHELL-

Thanks. I\'m glad to see you here as well. It doesn\'t bother me that I\'m in the minority here. I\'ve never needed to be in the majority just to fit in... ;)

We have some very knowledgeable folks here.

But, we\'ve got some I feel who really don\'t understand how much of a TEAM game football is.

While I think the QB is the most important postion on the field, I don\'t think it out-weighs the \"team\" concept.

The other 10 guys on the offense affects the QB much more than the QB affects them.

The QB needs 5 guys on the line to pass block for him. The receivers are in front of the 0-line and it really doesn\'t affect them that much. Same thing for the TE.

And the receivers affect the QB much more than the QB affects them. All the receiver has to do is run his route. If the QB doesn\'t throw the ball to him, it doesn\'t make them look bad.

But if the receiver doesn\'t catch the ball or runs the wrong route, it\'s the QBs stats it affects and it\'s the QB who usually receives the blame.

I could go on, but what\'s the use......

They\'ll learn one day....