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so in essence you are one of those people that my granddad refered to by saying \"well, he just changed changed the minds of most of the fickle, espn loving fans and bought himself another year\" when he saw brooks make a last ditch drive to score after blundering through the rest of the game like ned in the first reader.

look man-yes you have to have talent..but talent means nothing if you can\'t do anything with it. Micheal jordan would\'ve been harold minor without the work ethic and leadership abilities he brought to the table.

I\'d rather have an average qb with good work ethic, deciveness and leadership skills than a great athlete who is a me first, lazy player that continually makes bad decisions.


either you ARE aaron brooks in real life, or have a definite hang up that precludes you from seeing the reality of the situation that seemingly everyone else sees..this is getting old. our qb is not getting it done..so i\'m not worried about any other position right now.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 by baronm]

USA Today's Saints team report
 

Touche\' baron. I was gonna quote that line too. :salute:

USA Today's Saints team report
 

Look guys... I\'m ready to be sold on this leadership thing.

Think of me as that big dummy with a handfull of cash and nowhere to spend it..... ;)

Come on.........sell me some of that leadership!! ;)

But, be fair about it.......

Tell me how great of a leader McNabb is.

McNabb must be one of the best leaders in the NFL? At least, according to y\'alls theory.

But I don\'t think McNabb is that great of a leader.

Apply y\'alls theory to some other QBs who are winners.. McNabb, Vick, Culpepper..

Then explain to me how Delhomme only won 7 games after reaching the super bowl the year before. Where was that leadership then and how much did it help?

USA Today's Saints team report
 

After losing key player week after week, Delhomme LED his team to one of the hottest finishes in the league. Again, I would like to see how AB would perform with all the injuroes Delhomme had. He also led his team to the superbowl and almost led his team to a victory if nto for a kicker\'s inability to keep the ball in bounds.

McNabb is a pure example of leading by example. He ALWAYS says the right thing, and even when his receivers were absolute crap, he didn;t complain. HE just LED them to NFC champ after NFC Champ after NFC Champ.

Vick\'s leadership is clear, the TEAM rallies around him, defense included. They ALL play so much better when he is on the field. It\'s no doubt who the leader of that team is.

Culpepper is another example leader. He has a volatile but talented personality on the field with him, yet he doesn\'t try to sominate him or take over the spotlight. Randy says throw me the ball 80% of the time, Daunte shows him there are other receivers on the team. and I HAVE seen him on the sideline when they were down trying to get the team fired up. Randy walks off the field, \"Daunte says how disappointed he is.\" That\'s a leader. Just cause Randy is the best receover in the league he ain\'t gonna give him a free pass, but he ain\'t gonna toss him under the bus either.

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I can and will tear this apart.... ;)

Even with all the injuries to the Panthers. They still had a better defense and a better running game than the Saints. And while Delhomme might have LED his team to one of the hottest finishes in the NFL... It was Aaron Brooks who LED his team to the hottest finish in the NFL which inclueded a Brooks LED win over the hot Jake Delhomme LED Panthers that knocked the Panthers out of the playoffs.

Agreed. McNabb leads by his play on the filed. And he doesn\'t blame his teammates. Then again, he\'s been to 4 straight championship games. Not much reason to blame anyone when you\'re winning...

You\'re talking about the same Vick that said he was great. The same Vick who called out his offensive line and his coach?
The same \"me first\" Vick I\'ve been watching?

This is the same Culpepper who just got to the playoffs this year. The one who clowns on the field all the time? I don\'t see much in the leadership department. But, that\'s just me...

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it does get old but we can\'t hepp it i spose...

delhomme showed even more \"leadership\" this year than last to me. an offensive line decimated in the off season, both top rb\'s go out for the year, your top wide receiver gone, a 1-7 record with a 6 game losing streak... then to come back and even challenge for a playoff spot... impressive TEAMwork and the qb always does get a too much blame or credit, but regardless, he is usually the catalyst and does have more weight of success or failure based on his game. in this case, beyond any numbers you could identify \"leadership\". not just jake but the sum total of those intangibles that make teamwork success.

it isn\'t all leadership with whatever talent you might have that makes success. the contigent here doesnt think that. talent cannot be denied. moss is gifted, just like ricky williams. but you get not only non-leadership in those intangibles but you get negative or distracting issues to deal with. couple talent with leadership and you have a hall of famer like brett favre. that is why there is no question about peyton manning regardless of how far he has gone in the playoffs thusfar. he has both and get there one day, just like mcnabb has got there or how it took elway a while. beyond the wins and losses, beyond the stats, i do not see progress in ab regardless of what the supporting cast is doing. i see the same inconsistency or retrogression.

i have pointed out before there have been some wacky or inconsistent qbs in the superbowl before. but since the advent of free agency/salary caps in the mid 90s (i count the dallas and sf demises as the end of pre-salary cap) only good value leader sorts or the true franchise qbs have been there- no high ended salaried disappointments. my beef here isnt that we are coping with a talented inconsistent qb. it is that we are paying premium qb salary to do that. i think that is why others have chimed in that we could do this good with a kitna or rattay. they are not as talented. but they do seem to have some leadership qualities with serviceable skills that you could get for 10-15% of what you are paying ab. use that 5+mil to beef up some weakeness like lb or a db.

enough for now. have a good weekend ya\'ll

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Wait, you mean the AB who has Horn and Deuce and Grant and others while Delhomem didn\'t have Smith or Foster or Davis or Jenkins? Yeah, I see how that is fair.

I seriously doubt they had a better running game than what Deuce was putting up at the end of the year. Again high ankle sprain, played hurt. Imagine if we didn\'t even have Stecker? Or if Deuce was hurt the whole year? That\'s Delhomme.

On McNabb, yup not much reason to complain when you carry your teams to wins. I guess when you don\'t, you can complain away.

Show me some articles of Vick calling himself great. Please. I think you have him confused with his cousin. I really really would like to see an article. Also where he disses his team. By the way, he is considered one of the greatest athletes ever to play the game, has led his team to a few playoff victories as well. But I can see why AB egst to say it and not him. Again, show me an article.

Culpepper has been in the NFC Champ game in 2000. You may wanna recheck your info. Yes, he is a leader.

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saintwhodi --

Nick Goings put up over 100 yards in every game he played in except for ONE. And that was against the Saints.

Here\'s the bottom line. Jake had a 100-runningback for as many games as Brooks had, if not more. Delhomme had a better defense than Brooks. Even with the injuries. If you want to deny that........that\'s fine.........it\'s just not true. Julius Peppers, Dan Morgan, Mark Fields, etc. ect. And they ranked ahead of the Saints in total defense.

And Jake has a probowl receiver who outperfomed Joe Horn. And the Panthers had a first round draft choice at the other receiver spot.

And don\'t forget, the Panthers have one of the top coaches in the NFL in John Fox. And we got Haslett.

You tell me who had the advantage. Brooks? Or Delhomme?

Leadership my foot. I don\'t see where it helped a thing.

Yet, in spite of all that Jake couldn\'t win as many games as the Saints and the Saints knocked them out of the playoffs.

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Gumbo -
I\'m surprised that one would look at the 2004 Panthers and say that Delhomme failed as a leader. After getting absolutely decimated by season ending injuries for nearly 8 weeks, with NO talent left in receiver or RB, a weak O-line and a compromised D, they reeled off 5 straight wins. Good coaching - hell yes. Where was Delhomme in this? Playing exceptional football with 5 games of a rating over 100 and averaged 103.5 for the second half the year. He was one bad pass from being playoff bound.

Did anyone even hint that the Panthers gave up on either the coach or the qb? NO.

Did Delhomme throw himself on grenades intended for teammates. YES. At the same time the P\'s were 1-7, the Saints were 3-5. Which QB/OC would you say got the most out what he was dealt with when the season was on the line?

I\'m not boo-hooing the loss of Delhomme, I\'m lamenting over the maddening lack of character that you accept so slaveringly.

I agree with several posters ( whodi, baron, lkelley, etc) that leadership in key positions is critical. There must be a leader in each layer of the line-up. The qb must lead the entire O, but there needs to be a go-to guy on the O-line and one in the skill positions. There has to be a leader of the D-line, the leader of the LBs and one for the secondary.

I\'ve not seen but two guys embracing the leadership positions, Horn and Grant, out of the 6 needed. McKensie may well be a third next year and that does bode well for the D. I\'m not sure that having minimal O-leadership is going to work out, AGAIN.

Finally, it is too soon to tell whether any of this is going to matter until we see who is going to coordinate the O. That guy\'s going to have a fairly dramatic impact on the personnel on the field. I don\'t blame Trestman for taking a college OC position rather than the Saints\' considering the personnel he\'d be forced to deal with - Leon, a sieve for an O-Line, and prima donna, easily injured skill players. If I were a top flight OC, I\'d demand control of at least one high draft pick and guarranteed one high profile FA; who the hell wants to blow his career on THIS bunch?

ps. I got fed up with the frigid NE and flew in to NO this morning for a little Gras, and passed by the Saints\' facility on Airline. WOW. If that doesn\'t inspire the kind of commitment that the State and the Organization have for giving the players every opportunity to succeed, then we\'re paying them too much. Especially Sullivan.

USA Today's Saints team report
 

xan-

Here\'s the way I see it.

Rushing attack:
Saints: 26th
Panthers: 27th

Total Defense:
Saints: 32nd
Panthers: 17th

Receivers:
Joe Horn: 94 catches/ 1399 yards/11TDs
Mushin Muhammed: 93catches/1405 yards/16TDs

Now, you tell me who had the advantage?