in case you missed it

Danno · 02-10-2005, 01:02 PM

Anger much? It seems like SOMEONE is always being called an idiot in your posts Danno.

Its because idiots impersonating writers angers me enough to comment.

I don\'t know if you haven\'t noticed, but we are the EXACT mediocre team that has been fed this EXACT mediocre BS over and over and over.

What BS are you specfically referring to?

How many times in this \"parity\" gotten us into the playoffs? Or Detroit? Or Arizona? Or the Bengals? Or the Dolphins? Or on and on and on?

Parity (or the absense of it) has had nothing to do with us not making the playoffs. Bad coaching, bad player development, bad personnell decisions etc are the reasons we, and those other teams, don\'t make the playoffs. Show me where parity has hurt or helped us. Show me where we said \"over and over\" that we were a bounce or two from being the New England Patriots. Explain to me how winning the last week and making the playoffs is \"the worst kind of sham\".

What he is saying is mediocre teams, like us, who don\'t really wanna make changes to actually get better, like us, can lay on parity as a reason to make minor instead of major changes? Did we fire Haslett?did we fire Venturi? Did we get a new OC? Have we ever done jackity crap but look like fools in free agency?

I disagree. We have tried year after year to get better. the problem isn\'t we aren\'t trying, its just that we made the wrong decisions. And how have we lay\'d on parity?
Minor changes? This was the 1st year we didn\'t make major changes.
After Haz\'s 1st season, major changes.
2nd season, drastic changes,
3rd season, major overhaul
4th season, decided to try continuity.

For teams who have not enjoyed success, parity is the boot on their neck by the owners keeping fans in line while doing nothing.

Again, how can you say we do nothing. We do plenty. If you want to argue results, I\'m right there with you. But our failures have nothing to do with the concept of parity. And I don\'t understand how owners use parity to keep fans in line. What do you mean by \"in line\"? I\'ve heard nothing but outrage from the vast majority of Saints fans. The only time I hear fans defending this underachieving team is when someone points out an obvious problem with an overweight out-of-shape injury prone former all-pro RB.
But I don\'t know, maybe I\'m the idiot and no one has had the heart to inform me of it yet.

LKelley67 · 02-10-2005, 01:18 PM

benson wasnt even a football fan in his 50\'s when he bought the team. he is notoriously tightwad among all nfl owners. those two facts i do not think anyone will dispute. i think he lacks basic football instincts. so he might latch onto a talented person like a finks or mueller but just as likely go with a ditka, mueller, or loomis, he doesnt know the diff. everyone wants to win but is self evident that the passion for that burns deeper in some owners than others. wacky personalities or not no one doubts this with a jerry jones, wayne huizenga, dan snyder, or al davis, etc. i dont get that from benson. why was there more salary money left on the table in new orleans last year than any other team by far? if it didnt come from the top then the top should have cleaned house. no owner has a sweeter deal with the state/city than benson and he wants more. it isnt the biggest market in the league but it is run tighter than any other. his 70mil investment is now worth 500+mil, he has given it a 20 year shot and is 76 yrs old. he wasn\'t even aware that saban was being courted by miami remember. i wonder if he knew who saban was?

there is no issue about parity and the cap philosophically. it is when an owner within the system who is more concerned with the bottom line than winning can milk a city and state financially and (in louisiana fo sho) emotionally. read the whole article. it is not an attack against the premise of salary caps and parity but rather the owners who take advantage of it. i am very patient but am tired of the same excuses. there is something terribly wrong for a venturi to still be employed. (a great line i read elsewhere said \"even j.d. roberts was better than him\" LOL).

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 01:26 PM

youare definitely not an idiot Danno, it was just an observation. Point by point response.

1. The BS I am referring to is, we can win with Ruff. We can win with Dale Carter. We can win with Venturi as our coordinator. From Haslett. From Benson, I believe we can win with Haslett, yet we haven\'t. That\'s all BS.

2. You missed the point on that one. If bad coaching is a problem, why did we keep Haslett and Venturi? Cause parity and the promise of a better tomorrow will keep the Superdome seats full. You don\'t have to fire bad coaches when you can show your fans how horrible the NFC was this year, and get them to buy you being the next Cinderella. An owner doesn\'t have to take the financial hit of firing a head coach like Benson would have had to, cause the NFL makes fans believe we all have a shot no matter what. And if you are mediocre, as we are, then Oh boy you are right on the cusp. Yeah right.

3. I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year. You may have to explain that one to me. Where has this team tried to get better? I have heard where they SAID we were gonna be better cause of this no name guy or that no name guy, and I never believed it. You are gonna have to explain them trying to get better to me. Like I said above, parity allows us to believe the team when they say the Orlando Ruffs are the key.

4. Yes fans EXPRESS outrage, but do they still go to the games? Hell yeah they do. That\'s parity. The ANY GIVEN SUNDAY mantra. The your team can be the one that comes from nowhere ideal. The everyone is basically even ideal. THAT is BS. And it is being fed to fans by owners of mediocre and bad teams, like ours, to keep us tuning in and filling the dome. And like I said, it has worked.

[Edited on 10/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

baronm · 02-10-2005, 01:40 PM

we should have brought in Eric Mangini

GumboBC · 02-10-2005, 01:44 PM

True football fans don\'t buy tickets because their team is winning. True football fans but tickets because they love their team. Whether that team is winning or losing.

How else does anyone explain still being a Saints fan?

The superdome reagularly sold out when we had never won a playoff game. And it still sells out despite our record.

No Saints\' fan likes losing. But we stick with them. We keep hope.

I\'d love to have a Saints\' dynasty. But, I\'d settle for one of those magic runs made by teams such as the Panthers, Falcons, or Raiders. It still counts.

If someone wants to not support the team. That\'s their business.

I\'ll still be thinking playoffs come week 1. I\'m not in to giving up....

Oh, we complain like hell, but we\'re still here. And, the true fans aren\'t going anywhere. We\'ll still buy tickets.

shadowdrinker · 02-10-2005, 01:54 PM

In truth...We aren\'t a product of a failed design..at least not by the League\'s Free Agency design...

Free Agency works..it can turn pretenders..to contenders...and very quickly...with the right guys calling the shots...

We just don\'t have the guys we need running the show...and..we will fail...

The best thing that could ever happen to this team is...A middle aged guy with money, ego and an attitude..walks up and buys the team...a cocky..self rightoeus rich brat...who doesn\'t want to lose..and wants to be respected....and is willing to lay down the cash his family left him..in order to get it...

Instead of a washed up old sack...who is pi**ed off cuz he\'s old...and his team sucks...and he just wants to leave a thorn in the side of the State before he goes...and set up his precious grand daughter with loads of stolen money..and that\'s what it is...we have been betrayed....and sold on a false premise that this team will compete..when deep down..we know better...because..we have learned...from years of the same old cr*p..at least..I have learned..i can\'t speak for all of you..

It\'s not the coaches..it\'s not the players..and it damn sure isn\'t us...Benson has sold this team down the river...

I know I sound dumb...I am just mad as he**..It seems like ..we never get ahead..and then with this ****** LA thing breathing down our neck like a Bull in heat...it\'s just too much to bear sometimes...

Honestly..I wouldn\'t care if we went 1-15...if we, at the very least, knew that there infact would be a next year to look forward to...

Benson owes us more than that...dangling our loyalty above a pit of fire...we aren\'t mindless drones..It\'s just a total lack of respect for us...it\'s a slap in the face...I pray for the day Benson leaves...

Sell...Stay...do it now...you sorry @** old terd...

baronm · 02-10-2005, 01:58 PM

shasow-i think most people think along the same lines...we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap.

Tobias-Reiper · 02-10-2005, 02:27 PM

..few quick comments...

... I believe the writer meant an 8-8 team reaching the playoffs and going to the SB that same year, not a team that was 8-8 this year going to the SB next year...

... the Pats are head and shoulders above everyone else...

... I think, in a country of 250,000,000+, you can find 1,500 good football players, so I don\'t believe in the \"diluted talent\" argument....

... this past year there was indeed a high number of .500 teams looking at playoffs in the NFC, but if you look at the past playoff races, this past year was more the exception rather than the rule...

... the best thing that can happen to the Saints is Daniel Snyder??????

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 02:34 PM

i think most people think along the same lines...we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap.

baron, you will be surprised to find you are in the minority in that argument. A LOT of people here refuse to accept losing in the short term may be a part of getting better in the long term cause parity and the NFL have told them, if you are 8-8 now, and get that one stud free agent and one stud draft pick, you can be the surprise team of the up-coming season. I mean if you are 8-8, pretty much every year, you must be close right?

JKool · 02-10-2005, 03:13 PM

basically what free agency did was insure the quality of players and coaches were going to decline.

How does that work?

... I think, in a country of 250,000,000+, you can find 1,500 good football players, so I don\'t believe in the \"diluted talent\" argument....

While I don\'t think this is exactly right, I agree with the sentiment. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and have better coaching at an earlier age these days. The league isn\'t getting \"washed out\"; it is the case that \"in the good old days\" there were fewer great players, mediocre players were even more mediocre, etc. Thus, teams with a handful of players who were great could control the game.

I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year.

We did try to get better every year (even last year we drafted a pair of LBs who ended up being the starters); we just haven\'t succeeded in getting better enough (excuse the poor grammar, but you know what I\'m getting at). Just because you \"don\'t see it\", doesn\'t mean that wasn\'t what was attempted. Danno gave some examples, and they sound like efforts that didn\'t pan out.

On the parity and Benson point, it sounds to me like a conspiracy theory (where is 08 when you need him). The idea you guys seem to be pushing is that Benson doesn\'t want to win and he can hide behind parity. Well, I offered a different explanation: he does want to win and for a number of years. Free Agency requires one to make shrewd moves to get good players (pick up guys like Horn, Glover, or Knight) on the cheap who can produce for a long time. Of coruse, when you try to do that sometimes you get Ruffs.

I challenge you to find the evidence that shows the difference between this theory I just made up (want to win + FA) and the current popular view (doesn\'t want to win + Parity). I bet those roughly cover the data the same.

I understand that people blame Benson (and I can understand that), but I\'d be careful of saying he doesn\'t want to win. I just don\'t see how one can believe that with such vigor.

Finally,

we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap.

There is NO ONE here who doesn\'t want our boys to win. If you guys really buy into this Parity stuff, which you appear to, there is no need to lose in the short run. We should just be able to go out and buy the guys we need to win. If you don\'t buy into parity, then stop complaining about it.

There is more to say here, but I\'m going to stop here for now.

02-10-2005, 01:02 PM	#11
Danno Site Donor 2014 Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,640	in case you missed it Anger much? It seems like SOMEONE is always being called an idiot in your posts Danno. Its because idiots impersonating writers angers me enough to comment. I don\'t know if you haven\'t noticed, but we are the EXACT mediocre team that has been fed this EXACT mediocre BS over and over and over. What BS are you specfically referring to? How many times in this \"parity\" gotten us into the playoffs? Or Detroit? Or Arizona? Or the Bengals? Or the Dolphins? Or on and on and on? Parity (or the absense of it) has had nothing to do with us not making the playoffs. Bad coaching, bad player development, bad personnell decisions etc are the reasons we, and those other teams, don\'t make the playoffs. Show me where parity has hurt or helped us. Show me where we said \"over and over\" that we were a bounce or two from being the New England Patriots. Explain to me how winning the last week and making the playoffs is \"the worst kind of sham\". What he is saying is mediocre teams, like us, who don\'t really wanna make changes to actually get better, like us, can lay on parity as a reason to make minor instead of major changes? Did we fire Haslett?did we fire Venturi? Did we get a new OC? Have we ever done jackity crap but look like fools in free agency? I disagree. We have tried year after year to get better. the problem isn\'t we aren\'t trying, its just that we made the wrong decisions. And how have we lay\'d on parity? Minor changes? This was the 1st year we didn\'t make major changes. After Haz\'s 1st season, major changes. 2nd season, drastic changes, 3rd season, major overhaul 4th season, decided to try continuity. For teams who have not enjoyed success, parity is the boot on their neck by the owners keeping fans in line while doing nothing. Again, how can you say we do nothing. We do plenty. If you want to argue results, I\'m right there with you. But our failures have nothing to do with the concept of parity. And I don\'t understand how owners use parity to keep fans in line. What do you mean by \"in line\"? I\'ve heard nothing but outrage from the vast majority of Saints fans. The only time I hear fans defending this underachieving team is when someone points out an obvious problem with an overweight out-of-shape injury prone former all-pro RB. But I don\'t know, maybe I\'m the idiot and no one has had the heart to inform me of it yet.

02-10-2005, 01:18 PM	#12
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	in case you missed it benson wasnt even a football fan in his 50\'s when he bought the team. he is notoriously tightwad among all nfl owners. those two facts i do not think anyone will dispute. i think he lacks basic football instincts. so he might latch onto a talented person like a finks or mueller but just as likely go with a ditka, mueller, or loomis, he doesnt know the diff. everyone wants to win but is self evident that the passion for that burns deeper in some owners than others. wacky personalities or not no one doubts this with a jerry jones, wayne huizenga, dan snyder, or al davis, etc. i dont get that from benson. why was there more salary money left on the table in new orleans last year than any other team by far? if it didnt come from the top then the top should have cleaned house. no owner has a sweeter deal with the state/city than benson and he wants more. it isnt the biggest market in the league but it is run tighter than any other. his 70mil investment is now worth 500+mil, he has given it a 20 year shot and is 76 yrs old. he wasn\'t even aware that saban was being courted by miami remember. i wonder if he knew who saban was? there is no issue about parity and the cap philosophically. it is when an owner within the system who is more concerned with the bottom line than winning can milk a city and state financially and (in louisiana fo sho) emotionally. read the whole article. it is not an attack against the premise of salary caps and parity but rather the owners who take advantage of it. i am very patient but am tired of the same excuses. there is something terribly wrong for a venturi to still be employed. (a great line i read elsewhere said \"even j.d. roberts was better than him\" LOL).

02-10-2005, 01:26 PM	#13
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it youare definitely not an idiot Danno, it was just an observation. Point by point response. 1. The BS I am referring to is, we can win with Ruff. We can win with Dale Carter. We can win with Venturi as our coordinator. From Haslett. From Benson, I believe we can win with Haslett, yet we haven\'t. That\'s all BS. 2. You missed the point on that one. If bad coaching is a problem, why did we keep Haslett and Venturi? Cause parity and the promise of a better tomorrow will keep the Superdome seats full. You don\'t have to fire bad coaches when you can show your fans how horrible the NFC was this year, and get them to buy you being the next Cinderella. An owner doesn\'t have to take the financial hit of firing a head coach like Benson would have had to, cause the NFL makes fans believe we all have a shot no matter what. And if you are mediocre, as we are, then Oh boy you are right on the cusp. Yeah right. 3. I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year. You may have to explain that one to me. Where has this team tried to get better? I have heard where they SAID we were gonna be better cause of this no name guy or that no name guy, and I never believed it. You are gonna have to explain them trying to get better to me. Like I said above, parity allows us to believe the team when they say the Orlando Ruffs are the key. 4. Yes fans EXPRESS outrage, but do they still go to the games? Hell yeah they do. That\'s parity. The ANY GIVEN SUNDAY mantra. The your team can be the one that comes from nowhere ideal. The everyone is basically even ideal. THAT is BS. And it is being fed to fans by owners of mediocre and bad teams, like ours, to keep us tuning in and filling the dome. And like I said, it has worked. [Edited on 10/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

02-10-2005, 01:40 PM	#14
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	in case you missed it we should have brought in Eric Mangini
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

02-10-2005, 01:44 PM	#15
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	in case you missed it True football fans don\'t buy tickets because their team is winning. True football fans but tickets because they love their team. Whether that team is winning or losing. How else does anyone explain still being a Saints fan? The superdome reagularly sold out when we had never won a playoff game. And it still sells out despite our record. No Saints\' fan likes losing. But we stick with them. We keep hope. I\'d love to have a Saints\' dynasty. But, I\'d settle for one of those magic runs made by teams such as the Panthers, Falcons, or Raiders. It still counts. If someone wants to not support the team. That\'s their business. I\'ll still be thinking playoffs come week 1. I\'m not in to giving up.... Oh, we complain like hell, but we\'re still here. And, the true fans aren\'t going anywhere. We\'ll still buy tickets.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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02-10-2005, 01:54 PM	#16
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	in case you missed it In truth...We aren\'t a product of a failed design..at least not by the League\'s Free Agency design... Free Agency works..it can turn pretenders..to contenders...and very quickly...with the right guys calling the shots... We just don\'t have the guys we need running the show...and..we will fail... The best thing that could ever happen to this team is...A middle aged guy with money, ego and an attitude..walks up and buys the team...a cocky..self rightoeus rich brat...who doesn\'t want to lose..and wants to be respected....and is willing to lay down the cash his family left him..in order to get it... Instead of a washed up old sack...who is pi*ed off cuz he\'s old...and his team sucks...and he just wants to leave a thorn in the side of the State before he goes...and set up his precious grand daughter with loads of stolen money..and that\'s what it is...we have been betrayed....and sold on a false premise that this team will compete..when deep down..we know better...because..we have learned...from years of the same old crp..at least..I have learned..i can\'t speak for all of you.. It\'s not the coaches..it\'s not the players..and it damn sure isn\'t us...Benson has sold this team down the river... I know I sound dumb...I am just mad as he..It seems like ..we never get ahead..and then with this ** LA thing breathing down our neck like a Bull in heat...it\'s just too much to bear sometimes... Honestly..I wouldn\'t care if we went 1-15...if we, at the very least, knew that there infact would be a next year to look forward to... Benson owes us more than that...dangling our loyalty above a pit of fire...we aren\'t mindless drones..It\'s just a total lack of respect for us...it\'s a slap in the face...I pray for the day Benson leaves... Sell...Stay...do it now...you sorry @ old terd...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

02-10-2005, 01:58 PM	#17
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	in case you missed it shasow-i think most people think along the same lines...we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

02-10-2005, 02:27 PM	#18
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	in case you missed it ..few quick comments... ... I believe the writer meant an 8-8 team reaching the playoffs and going to the SB that same year, not a team that was 8-8 this year going to the SB next year... ... the Pats are head and shoulders above everyone else... ... I think, in a country of 250,000,000+, you can find 1,500 good football players, so I don\'t believe in the \"diluted talent\" argument.... ... this past year there was indeed a high number of .500 teams looking at playoffs in the NFC, but if you look at the past playoff races, this past year was more the exception rather than the rule... ... the best thing that can happen to the Saints is Daniel Snyder??????
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

02-10-2005, 02:34 PM	#19
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it i think most people think along the same lines...we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap. baron, you will be surprised to find you are in the minority in that argument. A LOT of people here refuse to accept losing in the short term may be a part of getting better in the long term cause parity and the NFL have told them, if you are 8-8 now, and get that one stud free agent and one stud draft pick, you can be the surprise team of the up-coming season. I mean if you are 8-8, pretty much every year, you must be close right?

02-10-2005, 03:13 PM	#20
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it basically what free agency did was insure the quality of players and coaches were going to decline. How does that work? ... I think, in a country of 250,000,000+, you can find 1,500 good football players, so I don\'t believe in the \"diluted talent\" argument.... While I don\'t think this is exactly right, I agree with the sentiment. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and have better coaching at an earlier age these days. The league isn\'t getting \"washed out\"; it is the case that \"in the good old days\" there were fewer great players, mediocre players were even more mediocre, etc. Thus, teams with a handful of players who were great could control the game. I do not see where we have tried to get better year after year. We did try to get better every year (even last year we drafted a pair of LBs who ended up being the starters); we just haven\'t succeeded in getting better enough (excuse the poor grammar, but you know what I\'m getting at). Just because you \"don\'t see it\", doesn\'t mean that wasn\'t what was attempted. Danno gave some examples, and they sound like efforts that didn\'t pan out. On the parity and Benson point, it sounds to me like a conspiracy theory (where is 08 when you need him). The idea you guys seem to be pushing is that Benson doesn\'t want to win and he can hide behind parity. Well, I offered a different explanation: he does want to win and for a number of years. Free Agency requires one to make shrewd moves to get good players (pick up guys like Horn, Glover, or Knight) on the cheap who can produce for a long time. Of coruse, when you try to do that sometimes you get Ruffs. I challenge you to find the evidence that shows the difference between this theory I just made up (want to win + FA) and the current popular view (doesn\'t want to win + Parity). I bet those roughly cover the data the same. I understand that people blame Benson (and I can understand that), but I\'d be careful of saying he doesn\'t want to win. I just don\'t see how one can believe that with such vigor. Finally, we want to win..and even if it means loosing in the short term-they are tired of the same old crap. There is NO ONE here who doesn\'t want our boys to win. If you guys really buy into this Parity stuff, which you appear to, there is no need to lose in the short run. We should just be able to go out and buy the guys we need to win. If you don\'t buy into parity, then stop complaining about it. There is more to say here, but I\'m going to stop here for now.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks