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WWL Fourth Down on 4

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; On Fourth Down on 4 this evening, Lee Zurik spoke with T-P writers Jeff Duncan and Brian Allee-Walsh about a number of Saints issues, including: 1) Darren Howard: Both Duncan and Allee-Walsh believe Howard will be franchised and that the ...

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Old 02-15-2005, 08:06 AM   #1
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

On Fourth Down on 4 this evening, Lee Zurik spoke with T-P writers Jeff Duncan and Brian Allee-Walsh about a number of Saints issues, including:

1) Darren Howard: Both Duncan and Allee-Walsh believe Howard will be franchised and that the Saints will then listen to trade offers. They think we can snag a quality defensive player and a 3rd round pick in exchange for Howard.

2) State-Saints Negotiations: Both men think a long-term deal will be struck. However, neither thinks a deal will be struck by the March 1 deadline. In fact, they think that the NFL is instructing the Saints to refrain from making a deal until after the upcoming season (!) to really stir up the Saints fan base and apply as much pressure on the State as possible to give the team as sweet a deal as possible.

3) Johnathan Sullivan: Both men said the light must go on for Sullivan in '05 or he's gone. Team must show that poor behavior/attitude/work ethic like Sullivan's will not be tolerated. Duncan said Sullivan is John Pease's offseason project (again). Duncan also said he thinks Sullivan should be fired now, but acknowledged that the huge cap hit would prevent the team from making such a drastic move.

4) McCarthy: Both men seem to like and respect McCarthy, said he'll probably be an NFL head coach one day. They also said that while many wanted McCarthy gone, he was a good coordinator who was just doing what he was told to do and took the fall for doing so. Said not to expect much change on offense under Sheppard.

5) Draft/FA: Both men agreed that OT, a playmaking LB and a playmaking safety must be offseason priorities. They also said backup RB is also a need, especially if the team can't work out a deal with Deuce (!); said CB's we have now are pretty solid.

6) Brooks: Both men said they like Brooks, but he's way too sensitive. Allee-Walsh said he was in Brooks' corner until this past year -- he didn't elaborate as to why his opinion had changed.

7) Haslett extension: Both men seemed to think that Haslett will get an extension. Allee-Walsh said Benson wants to stick with Haslett just as the Steelers have stuck with Cowher, hopes the continuity will pay off like it did for the Steelers last season.

8) Joe Horn: Both men said that while Horn's on the downside of his career, he's still a quality player whom the Saints must reward for his performance last season. Sounds like Horn's contract will be renegotiated this offseason (doesn't it seem like Horn has been renegotiating every offseason?).
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Old 02-15-2005, 08:18 AM   #2
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

8) Joe Horn: Both men said that while Horn\'s on the downside of his career, he\'s still a quality player whom the Saints must reward for his performance last season. Sounds like Horn\'s contract will be renegotiated this offseason (doesn\'t it seem like Horn has been renegotiating every offseason?).

I\'ve been saying this all along. He gets a contract extension EVERY, and I really do mean every, offseason. It\'s starting to get ridiculous. He needs to honor one of them and stop being so greedy. Doesn\'t really matter anyways, I think it\'s his last season here. No way can you committ Harrison type money to a guys that\'s going to turn 34 after the season. We already have a talented WR corp and can pick up a #1 receiver through the draft or free agency. SEE YOU LATER JOE!

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

All little common sense goes a long way.
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Old 02-15-2005, 08:24 AM   #3
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

8) Joe Horn: Both men said that while Horn\'s on the downside of his career, he\'s still a quality player whom the Saints must reward for his performance last season. Sounds like Horn\'s contract will be renegotiated this offseason (doesn\'t it seem like Horn has been renegotiating every offseason?).

I\'ve been saying this all along. He gets a contract extension EVERY, and I really do mean every, offseason. It\'s starting to get ridiculous. He needs to honor one of them and stop being so greedy. Doesn\'t really matter anyways, I think it\'s his last season here. No way can you committ Harrison type money to a guys that\'s going to turn 34 after the season. We already have a talented WR corp and can pick up a #1 receiver through the draft or free agency. SEE YOU LATER JOE!
While I agree that he won\'t get Harrison type money, I think it\'s in the Saints\' best interest to try to find a way to work it out. Give Joe some more upfront money now, extend the contract to spread out the cap hit, and backload it big time on the back end with everyone knowing that Joe will never see that money.

Something like 5 years, $8 mil bonus, and big money on the last 2 years of the contract. I may even be willing to throw in a roster bonus in the 2nd and third year.

That will give Joe big guaranteed money right now while lessening the cap hit.

But I also agree that if Joe isn\'t willing to work it out, that the Saints may need to look at other options.

SFIAH

The Saints have been to playoffs 4 of the last 5 years and a own a SB championship.

I can hardly believe this happened in my lifetime.
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Old 02-15-2005, 08:48 AM   #4
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

I\'ve been saying this all along. He gets a contract extension EVERY, and I really do mean every, offseason. It\'s starting to get ridiculous. He needs to honor one of them and stop being so greedy.
Joe Horn initially signed a three-year deal with the Saints before the 2000 season. After the 2001 season (2002 would have been his last), the SAINTS APPROACHED HORN and offered an extension and the current contract, adding 3 years to the deal. He is currently playing under that ONE extension, which is good through 2005. If it feels like Horn is always looking for an extension it\'s b/c people HERE and in the MEDIA try to make a case for running him out of town every offseason on account that he\'s \"too old\" or \"over the hill\", despite being paid HALF of what the other TOP 5 WRs make. As with this year, the team and Horn have both made comments in the media stating that the SAINTS approached Horn for an extension, and that the SAINTS demonstrated their interest in \"taking care\" and \"rewarding\" Joe Horn. Not the other way around. You say Joe Horn is greedy and that he should honor his contract... show me another top 5 plaer at any position who is a better deal right now than Joe Horn. Who shows up every week, and despite what people insinuate, rarely brings up the issue of compensation himself. Just give me one example.

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Old 02-15-2005, 08:59 AM   #5
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

If it feels like Horn is always looking for an extension it\'s b/c people HERE and in the MEDIA try to make a case for running him out of town every offseason on account that he\'s \"too old\" or \"over the hill\", despite being paid HALF of what the other TOP 5 WRs make.
I know you think Horn is a top 5 receiver, but I don\'t!!

If we\'re going to pay top 5 money, then let\'s go get a top 5 receiver. There\'s plenty of guys out there who put up stats like Joe Horn.

But there\'s much better receivers than Joe Horn. Joe doesn\'t deserve top 5 money. And at the age of 34, you\'ve got to consider how many more years Joe is going to produce.
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Old 02-15-2005, 09:10 AM   #6
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

So basically you are putting him the the Moss, Owens, Harrison category? Although he is a great receiver, I don\'t consider him a gamebreaker. He deserves his money, but not the type of money that he THINKS he deserves. His cap charge for this year will be around the 5 million mark, isn\'t that enough? He wants more money and longer years. Seven-year, $67 million extension is the figure he is looking at. That\'s just ridiculous... something around 6yr - 36 mil with a nice chunk up front if you want to reward him. He\'s looking to break the Saints. I\'d wait til the end of the year, tag him for another, and let our other receivers develop or sign another quality receiver.

WhoDat I don\'t think you remember the time when Joe Horn was on ESPN a couple of years back saying that HE wanted an extension and more money from the Saints. This was when Willie Roaf was still a Saint.

And about getting paid half of what other top receivers make, do you notice that many are forced to get their contracts reworked? Muhammad will probably be cut if he doesn\'t rework his deal and Eric Moulds also had to reduce his salary with an extension. Pretty soon you\'ll also see the same thing happen with Price in Atlanta. Not everyone can get Harrison, Moss, and Owens money. And Horn isn\'t one of them.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

All little common sense goes a long way.
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Old 02-15-2005, 09:28 AM   #7
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

FYI ...

Horn\'s exact cap charge for his year is 4.8 million.

Harrison\'s cap charge is 5.6 million. I don\'t consider this half of what the top receivers are making.
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:08 AM   #8
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

imo, horn is worth the money he wants, BUT only if he can time travel into history 7 years and restart at 26 years old.... if not then let him play his final year of his contract, don\'t give him an extension and let his 34 year old ass walk...
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:19 AM   #9
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

Horn\'s exact cap charge for his year is 4.8 million.

Harrison\'s cap charge is 5.6 million. I don\'t consider this half of what the top receivers are making.
You\'re looking at a SINGLE year. Joe Horn\'s AVERAGE cost to the team is $4 Million A YEAR. Moss\' is $9 million a year. Harrison\'s will now be something crazy like $11....

But go ahead and talk about how Horn should be cut, just like you all did last season. When he goes to the Pro Bowl next year, you\'ll all be talking about how he really really should be cut. And when he\'s inducted into the Saints Hall of Fame, you\'ll all be talking about how much you loved the guy. Whatever.
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:22 AM   #10
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WWL Fourth Down on 4

I agree with most of what the original post said except one. I would trade Joe Jorn now while we can get high value for him -- while he should be rewarded a long-term Harrison like contract is not good value for him right now. He has 1-2 good to great years left but thats it.
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