another i cant hepp it thread

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:12 PM

If this was someone else\'s QB we would be laughing our ***** off that they had him.

We would? Didn\'t someone suggest we should trade AB for the Raven\'s Waterboy?

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:15 PM

this guy we have who is a joke elsewhere has a blank check of excuses.

Whodi, you have an odd way of reading what other people are saying. Everyone agrees that Brooks is a problem. What they disagree on is how big a problem he is. Does that not make sense? Certainly, being a player in a team game does not make being good or bad a merely yes/no proposition? It is more of a better or worse thing.

I just don\'t understand how you\'re seeing what other people are saying as this: Brooks is faultless. I don\'t get it.

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 04:15 PM

Whodi --

is 20 to 30 points a game what you\'d consider to be enough to win? If our defense was able to stop ANYBODY would the Saints have made the playoffs last year and the year before? When our defense slips up and plays decent we win a lot don\'t we? Go figure.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:16 PM

When someone thinks these thing can be validated,

QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, with increasingly just bad decisions

and sees nothing wrong with this, there is truly no hope. I respect both you guys, and maybe you can live with a guy who leads the league in horrible stats, but I can\'t. Says nothing about me, says nothing about you guys, just shows where we are willing to draw the line. Obviously you both have more patience than me, and I applaud that. But since neither of you answered my first challenge here is another, go to another board, don\'t mention AB, and just ask the people there if they want a QB who leads the league in these stats. You can throw in his passing numbers if you like if that will make him look better, but just ask fans of teams other than the Saints if they want that in their QB. The Miami fans have spoken, see if you can get some more. I will be interested in what other teams fans have to say, although I already know.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:16 PM

Kool, like I told saintfan, fine me this QB

Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone.

and I will have nothing more to say on the subject.

Whodi, I honestly just don\'t understand your point. I did read what you\'d said to SF.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:19 PM

When someone thinks these thing can be validated,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, with increasingly just bad decisions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and sees nothing wrong with this, there is truly no hope.

No one thinks those can be validated. Whodi, you\'re getting upset for no reason. AGAIN, we agree with you on that. What we disagree with is what follows from those things, the extent to which those belong solely on the QB, and so on.

What is wrong with that?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:22 PM

Whodi --

is 20 to 30 points a game what you\'d consider to be enough to win? If our defense was able to stop ANYBODY would the Saints have made the playoffs last year and the year before? When our defense slips up and plays decent we win a lot don\'t we? Go figure.

Last year(2003) we averaged 21.2 points per game and our defense gave up 20.4. Think Mr. lead the league in fumbles cost us some games? I know he cost us the Tampa game last year with his four fumbles. two when he wasn\'t touched. Where do we average 30 points per game? We aren\'t even close. Think Mr. Lead the league in red zone turnovers had something to do with that this year? If you turn the ball ove rin the red zone, you don\'t score. That\'s football. HE LEAD THE LEAGUE. Do you realize how many offensive players there are in the league? Do you realize how many people you have to beat out to lead the league in lost fumbles? And to do it in BACK TO BACK YEARS? Even Vegas can\'t count odds that high. Come on.

[Edited on 17/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:26 PM

But since neither of you answered my first challenge here is another, go to another board, don\'t mention AB, and just ask the people there if they want a QB who leads the league in these stats. You can throw in his passing numbers if you like if that will make him look better, but just ask fans of teams other than the Saints if they want that in their QB.

Whodi, I know that you think that watching the games matters as much as the stats. Why is that? Here is my guess: because stats only tell one part of the story. Imagine a QB who throws only 10 passes before he is K.O.ed by an wicked hit. Say nine of those passes are completed for 45 yards and a TD. But the throws a pick on the play he gets knocked out.

If you were to go to another board and say, I can get you a QB who completes 90% of his passes. People will be like \"sh-t yeah!\" Or, I can say I can get you a guy who throws a 1-1 INT-TD ratio per game. People will be like \"hmmmm\". Or I can say, I can get you a guy who has taken somewhere between 10 and 15 snaps, he\'s ok, but he threw a totally moronic looking INT.

Anyway, you can see where I\'m going with this. Unless the stats are understood in a context (namely the game itself) they are only somewhat useful.

The point: the fact that a bunch of guys who know something about football (maybe some stats, maybe what they heard on ESPN), but may have never seen a single Saints game (ever), just aren\'t the guys whose views I\'m going to take overly seriously.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:28 PM

There\'s nothing wrong with it Kool, except you want me to believe that over the course of several years now OUTSIDE FACTORS have caused problems for Brooks and not just Brooks being a bad QB. If it was one year, sure. I can see that. But it\'s a habit. He fumbles this year just as much as last year he just didn\'t lose the same amount. So if next year, he leads the league in turnovers that lead directly to points for the opposing team, will you have an excuse for him then? When you are talking about red zone turnovers, you are talking about points the team CAN NOT SCORE, OFF THE BOARD. That is a HUGE STAT and you are tryin to undervalue it to defend Brooks. That I don\'t understand. One year maybe you can forgive. But we are on year 4 of excuses for this guy and blaming everyone else, when will we get tired of it? Never I guess. I am at a loss. I will read what you guys say next if anything, but I won\'t respond cause I honestly and genuinely can not understand. And I am not cracking wise, I really just do not understand.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:28 PM

Our defense lead the league in yards allowed. Should we cut them all? Are they all equally to blame for that? Is Charles Grant just as bad as Tebucky Jones? Grant LEAD THE LEAGUE IN YARDS ALLOWED after all.

02-17-2005, 04:12 PM	#41
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread If this was someone else\'s QB we would be laughing our ***** off that they had him. We would? Didn\'t someone suggest we should trade AB for the Raven\'s Waterboy?

02-17-2005, 04:15 PM	#42
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread this guy we have who is a joke elsewhere has a blank check of excuses. Whodi, you have an odd way of reading what other people are saying. Everyone agrees that Brooks is a problem. What they disagree on is how big a problem he is. Does that not make sense? Certainly, being a player in a team game does not make being good or bad a merely yes/no proposition? It is more of a better or worse thing. I just don\'t understand how you\'re seeing what other people are saying as this: Brooks is faultless. I don\'t get it.

02-17-2005, 04:15 PM	#43
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread Whodi -- is 20 to 30 points a game what you\'d consider to be enough to win? If our defense was able to stop ANYBODY would the Saints have made the playoffs last year and the year before? When our defense slips up and plays decent we win a lot don\'t we? Go figure.

02-17-2005, 04:16 PM	#44
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread When someone thinks these thing can be validated, QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, with increasingly just bad decisions and sees nothing wrong with this, there is truly no hope. I respect both you guys, and maybe you can live with a guy who leads the league in horrible stats, but I can\'t. Says nothing about me, says nothing about you guys, just shows where we are willing to draw the line. Obviously you both have more patience than me, and I applaud that. But since neither of you answered my first challenge here is another, go to another board, don\'t mention AB, and just ask the people there if they want a QB who leads the league in these stats. You can throw in his passing numbers if you like if that will make him look better, but just ask fans of teams other than the Saints if they want that in their QB. The Miami fans have spoken, see if you can get some more. I will be interested in what other teams fans have to say, although I already know.

02-17-2005, 04:16 PM	#45
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Kool, like I told saintfan, fine me this QB Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone. and I will have nothing more to say on the subject. Whodi, I honestly just don\'t understand your point. I did read what you\'d said to SF.

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02-17-2005, 04:19 PM	#46
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread When someone thinks these thing can be validated, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, with increasingly just bad decisions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and sees nothing wrong with this, there is truly no hope. No one thinks those can be validated. Whodi, you\'re getting upset for no reason. AGAIN, we agree with you on that. What we disagree with is what follows from those things, the extent to which those belong solely on the QB, and so on. What is wrong with that?

02-17-2005, 04:22 PM	#47
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Whodi -- is 20 to 30 points a game what you\'d consider to be enough to win? If our defense was able to stop ANYBODY would the Saints have made the playoffs last year and the year before? When our defense slips up and plays decent we win a lot don\'t we? Go figure. Last year(2003) we averaged 21.2 points per game and our defense gave up 20.4. Think Mr. lead the league in fumbles cost us some games? I know he cost us the Tampa game last year with his four fumbles. two when he wasn\'t touched. Where do we average 30 points per game? We aren\'t even close. Think Mr. Lead the league in red zone turnovers had something to do with that this year? If you turn the ball ove rin the red zone, you don\'t score. That\'s football. HE LEAD THE LEAGUE. Do you realize how many offensive players there are in the league? Do you realize how many people you have to beat out to lead the league in lost fumbles? And to do it in BACK TO BACK YEARS? Even Vegas can\'t count odds that high. Come on. [Edited on 17/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

02-17-2005, 04:26 PM	#48
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread But since neither of you answered my first challenge here is another, go to another board, don\'t mention AB, and just ask the people there if they want a QB who leads the league in these stats. You can throw in his passing numbers if you like if that will make him look better, but just ask fans of teams other than the Saints if they want that in their QB. Whodi, I know that you think that watching the games matters as much as the stats. Why is that? Here is my guess: because stats only tell one part of the story. Imagine a QB who throws only 10 passes before he is K.O.ed by an wicked hit. Say nine of those passes are completed for 45 yards and a TD. But the throws a pick on the play he gets knocked out. If you were to go to another board and say, I can get you a QB who completes 90% of his passes. People will be like \"sh-t yeah!\" Or, I can say I can get you a guy who throws a 1-1 INT-TD ratio per game. People will be like \"hmmmm\". Or I can say, I can get you a guy who has taken somewhere between 10 and 15 snaps, he\'s ok, but he threw a totally moronic looking INT. Anyway, you can see where I\'m going with this. Unless the stats are understood in a context (namely the game itself) they are only somewhat useful. The point: the fact that a bunch of guys who know something about football (maybe some stats, maybe what they heard on ESPN), but may have never seen a single Saints game (ever), just aren\'t the guys whose views I\'m going to take overly seriously.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#49
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread There\'s nothing wrong with it Kool, except you want me to believe that over the course of several years now OUTSIDE FACTORS have caused problems for Brooks and not just Brooks being a bad QB. If it was one year, sure. I can see that. But it\'s a habit. He fumbles this year just as much as last year he just didn\'t lose the same amount. So if next year, he leads the league in turnovers that lead directly to points for the opposing team, will you have an excuse for him then? When you are talking about red zone turnovers, you are talking about points the team CAN NOT SCORE, OFF THE BOARD. That is a HUGE STAT and you are tryin to undervalue it to defend Brooks. That I don\'t understand. One year maybe you can forgive. But we are on year 4 of excuses for this guy and blaming everyone else, when will we get tired of it? Never I guess. I am at a loss. I will read what you guys say next if anything, but I won\'t respond cause I honestly and genuinely can not understand. And I am not cracking wise, I really just do not understand.

02-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#50
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Our defense lead the league in yards allowed. Should we cut them all? Are they all equally to blame for that? Is Charles Grant just as bad as Tebucky Jones? Grant LEAD THE LEAGUE IN YARDS ALLOWED after all.