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another i cant hepp it thread

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; First of all, those of us who aren\'t ready to get rid of AB are not all pro-AB, we just don\'t see any viable alternative or we feel like other areas are bigger needs. Until the Bashers accept this as ...

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Old 02-18-2005, 07:38 AM   #81
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another i cant hepp it thread

First of all, those of us who aren\'t ready to get rid of AB are not all pro-AB, we just don\'t see any viable alternative or we feel like other areas are bigger needs. Until the Bashers accept this as true, they will never understand the position of the moderates. The bashers keep throwing out ABs faults as if the moderates have ignored they exist when the reality is that the moderates have been equally as vocal about AB\'s problems we just haven\'t taken it that further step and said \"adios AB. We\'ll replace you with....\"

I also love how you rely on \"we\'ve tried to fix everything else and it hasn\'t worked\" to say that AB should be replaced.If you could say we fixed everything else, it would be different. The reality is nothing else has really been fixed.

The o-line is worse now than when it was \"fixed\".
Safety position is worse now than before TJones was obtained.
DT is still a huge problem area although we\'ve tried many times to fill in players there.
WR is a little less effective than in the past even though we\'ve added a 1st and 2nd round picks here.
TE is nearly a joke, but we add and add to it to no avail.
CB had not improved at all until MM came along. Still a big concern.
LB is the biggest unknown on the team. Players have come and gone.

So, of the list above, you want to rely on these positions as having been fixed or tried to be fixed as reason for AB to be let go? I say that is illogical because it\'s obvious these positions were not helped by the tinkering. Thus, you can\'t point to the tinkering as a justification for releasing AB. AND, now what you want to do is tinker with the QB position.

Does anything about how well this team has done at solving its problems make you think that by making a change at QB it will be for the better? Look at the track record of the changes we\'ve made.

Again, because I kow you\'ve forgotten what I said at first. I know AB has his problems. You don\'t have to list things like redzone INTs and fumbles. I am aware!
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Old 02-18-2005, 08:36 AM   #82
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another i cant hepp it thread

Love this post, and it seems to be one of the more civil discussions on this topic.

From what I can tell, it seems that the crowd that defends Brooks believes (by and large) that he should not be replaced and that there are bigger concerns to deal with (O-line, Defense, etc). The crowd against Brooks is tired of waiting for Brooks to stop making the horrific plays and to consistently display the excellent play we see in him on some occasions.

I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever overcome the game-breaking mistakes. I don\'t believe Aaron Brooks will ever play consistently great. What I do believe is that we are seeing, year in and year out, the way Brooks\' play will always be. Some games, he will play like an all-pro and others he will lose for us single-handedly.

For me, that is what frustates me so much when I hear the argument \"there\'s no one out there who is proven to be better so we keep him\". I just don\'t see that as very real world. This is a simplistic example that is how I see it without tying it to all the personal feelings about our QB. Here goes:

If I owned a car that I used to transport me to work. I used to love this car! It made me feel cool and I even managed to pick-up a model/actress that first year! Woot! Good times and I was certain even better days were head.

Since that time, the car has been a little less. Most days it got me to work just fine. On some days, the radio even worked and made the ride fun! On some days it just broke down and I couldn\'t get to work. Now this year, the road was being worked on and the ride was rough. Last year, the weather was bad a lot. The year before that, there was a small coolant leak. Those all made the ride a bit harder for the car to make, but in the end the car just performs the way it does independent of the environment.

I\'ve taken it to mechanics. I\'ve bought manuals. I\'ve shined it up and put money into it. Nothing seems to affect how it performs. That\'s just the way that car is.

Unfortunately, my boss is angry now because I\'ve missed work more than he would like. Now, I can afford a spiffy new car nor a restored and great classic. Hell, the guys I know with those cars are not selling! The used car lot down the road has a lot of cars. Problem is, I don\'t know if they really would be an upgrade.

I may trade in my car for one of those and make it to work less, lose my job, etc. Problem is, I\'m not sure I realistically expect that the car I currently have is going to suddenly perform a lot better. Oh yeah, the road work may get finished this year. The weather could be great. Those things no doubt had an effect on the car\'s performance, but they don\'t account for all of it. The car accounts for MOST of it.

Seems that I am paralyzed by the risk of it. If I stay with my car, I may make it work. If I buy a new one, I may make it to work. The only thing I KNOW for sure is that the car I have now has a track record of me not making it to work. Will there EVERY be a year when EVERYTHING else that MAY effect the car be perfect? If that year comes along, wouldn\'t ANY car do just as well at getting me to work? Even the Dilfermobile?

I don\'t need to spell it out any more. For my part, I want to see someone else QBing. They may not be an upgrade. So what. We may lose even more games. So what. Something has to be done.

It seems clear to me that AB\'s performance is not going to lift us up. At best, he can \"fill the QB role\" on a team that doesn\'t require him to be better than average. We are not that team. For us to win, we need someone who will lift us up - not lead us to easy victory one week and lose the game single-handedly the next week. We have to take the risk to find that guy. If we don\'t, we have to learn to accept these .500 seasons.

Compound all that with Brooks\' ridiculously high salary (for his performance) and his rumored demands for even more..... ** I was going to turn this into a gas-guzzler thing with the car analogy, but just got tired of typing

\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue

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Old 02-18-2005, 09:11 AM   #83
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another i cant hepp it thread

Yikes, this train sure got rolling. All I can say is, I pointed out to saintfan how two teams made the playoffs scoring LESS points per game than us and giving up more than 20 points per game, just like us. I also pointed out that FOUR teams\' defenses last year that made the playoffs gave up MORE ponits per game than us. The difference, their QBs did not lead the league in lost fumbles one year, and red zone turnovers the next year COUPLED WITH a sprinkling of bone-headed plays. Those are FACTS. If teams whose defenses are similar to ours can make the playoffs, as I have repeatedly pointed out, there is only one difference, who their QB is and the mistakes he makes to minimize the poor defense. It just so happens our QB MAXIMIZES the sometimes ineptitude of our defense. I will say right now I feel if AB DID NOT lead the league in lost fumbles last year and DID NOT lead the league in red zone turnovers this year we would have won at least TWO more games between those two seasons, both putting us in the playoffs. Had we won just ONE more game this year we would have been in, doesn\'t it seem like a stat such as LEADING THE LEAGUE IN RED ZONE TURNOVERS could have been the difference? Doesn\'t it seem liek a stat such as LEADING THE LEAGUE IN LOST FUMBLES can hurt your team? And other teams QBs get bashed but they don\'t LEAD the league in these horrible stats. So while we may not be in the Superbowl, eliminating these horrendous stats will get us into the playoffs, that is proven. Teams whose defenses give up 20 points a game and score less than us GET INTO THE PLAYOFFS. FOUR TEAMS WITH WORSE scoring defenses last year GOT INTO THE PLAYOFFS. We had the worst first quarter scoring disparity in the league, coincidence that we have a QB who in ZERO SEASONS AS A STARTER has ever completed over 60% of his passes? That much coincidence? Coincidence that over the 4 game winning streak, 16 quarters of football, our QB played terrible for 11 of those quarters? Yikes. So again, if he plays that bad in wins, how much worse is it when other parts of the team can\'t disguise how terrible he is? That\'s when you get to blame everyone else. We had a perfect example of who AB is the last 4 games, so I guess it is acceptable for your QB to play like crap 75% of the time as long as everyone else carries his weight. Okay.

[Edited on 18/2/2005 by saintswhodi]
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Old 02-18-2005, 09:57 AM   #84
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another i cant hepp it thread

wow, i just have to chime in a little. threads are funny, eh? i posted this just as a little oddity for entertainment moreless. it evolves into the deep heartfelt feelings about the performance of ab and whether he should be gone. other posts that might warrant deeper discussion ( ex: http://www.blackandgold.net/site...hread&tid=8035) sometimes get only one or two replies. no beef i just find it interesting how the leon issue continually revs up like this. i do not feel compelled to argue over the quality of his performance or the lack thereof. some see the 50+ fumble type of error filled play with negative leadership intangibles, others see more a bad defense, bad offensive line, etc. my biggest beef about him no matter where you grade him is that we are not getting $6million worth of performance. success in the cap world is who gets the most total bang for the buck. $6mil is upper echelon pay. with the erratic play i can only peg brooks total play at average or best. i do not think a mike mcmahon (for example) is a overall more talented player but i do think i would rather have him at $2mil a year and conver that $4mil diff into o-line or defensive upgrades. i see ab like plummer when at arizona, talented but erratic. now at denver he has done better, talented and erratic surrounded by a better team. i would not feel disappointed if he went elsewhere and had better luck. i do not think his basic makeup of who he is and how he plays is going to suddenly change. maybe better stats with a better supporting cast but sum total of wins/losses not different. i do not have an ounce of hope this front office is going to do anything in that regard. they have too much of themselves at stake and riding on him. with that as a given i do not get too revved up about it. i think another year of failure and then there might finally be significant change from loomis to venturi to brooks and more. i have been a saints fan since their first preseason kickoff and have endured this far. another season is nothing for those so used to hoping against hope.
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:03 AM   #85
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another i cant hepp it thread

Scotty and SFIAH, nice work. I\'m going to leave this one to you guys today, since (1) I\'m tired of it, and (2) I\'ve got an impossibly busy day. I\'m presenting a paper today, wish me luck.

FF and Whodi, I see the position you have. I respect that position. I think it is wrong. I\'ve heard the arguments you gave here many times before (often from the two of you). They are well articulated and thoughtful. You probably already know what I think the problems with them are, so I won\'t repeat them right now.

I hope this thread continues becoming even more lucid and intelligent (rather than bogging back down to name calling).

Here is my current hypothesis on the Brooks debate: since everyone pretty well agrees on the facts, all there is to disagree about is how a given poster responds to those facts (i.e. his feelings about the facts). Since no argument can be made that hasn\'t been heard, the only thing left to do is to state ones\' feelings loudly and repeatedly. It reminds me of a bar fight: people who are too drunk to reason, have lost track of the point, and know that they feel differently about something have only one way to solve their dispute.

Just a thought.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:04 AM   #86
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another i cant hepp it thread

Yikes! I\'m still waiting for you to digest this...

those of us who aren\'t ready to get rid of AB are not all pro-AB, we just don\'t see any viable alternative or we feel like other areas are bigger needs. Until the Bashers accept this as true, they will never understand the position of the moderates. The bashers keep throwing out ABs faults as if the moderates have ignored they exist when the reality is that the moderates have been equally as vocal about AB\'s problems
In what language can I tell you that I understand that AB hurts our team with his play sometimes (or even often)?

FF, really cut to the chase of the matter. It has been something I\'ve suspicioned for a while about some of the bashers when he said...
For my part, I want to see someone else QBing. They may not be an upgrade. So what. We may lose even more games. So what. Something has to be done
The rest of the bashers may not be ready to admit it, but I get the feeling that you feel this way. You\'d honestly prefer to have McMahon, for instance, at QB with all else being the same and lose 2 more games than we would have with AB, just to get rid of AB. That is called hurting the team just to replace AB.

Lastly, I\'ll take it that the bashers agree with my list of things we have tried to fix, but haven\'t, and stop using the \"the only constant has been AB\" BS. The true only constant is that out team has not been good all around for quite a while.
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:10 AM   #87
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another i cant hepp it thread

The rest of the bashers may not be ready to admit it, but I get the feeling that you feel this way. You\'d honestly prefer to have McMahon, for instance, at QB with all else being the same and lose 2 more games than we would have with AB, just to get rid of AB. That is called hurting the team just to replace AB.

Lastly, I\'ll take it that the bashers agree with my list of things we have tried to fix, but haven\'t, and stop using the \"the only constant has been AB\" BS. The true only constant is that out team has not been good all around for quite a while.
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:17 AM   #88
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another i cant hepp it thread

SR,

Not what I meant to imply and not what I think I said.

I would not take ANOTHER proven, inconsistent loser over Brooks. What I would do is take a chance on a guy who shows promise and be satisfied EVEN IF WE DID WORSE. At least it would be effort to change a common problem.

Like it or not, the only player who touches the ball every single play is Brooks. He is the single common thread in the offense. The QB on every team is the same. This doesn\'t prove that AB is responsible for our poor offensive play. It does suggest that his play has a greater impact than any other.

As an aside, the points-scored/points-allowed argument is crap in my opinion. If we cannot score at all in the first quarter and we get behind because we can\'t stop anyone from scoring - it doesn\'t surprise me that we would put up twenty points. Enemy defenses (when playing from a big lead) will play off and let you score, as long as it takes you a while to do it. That\'s not a reflection of QBing skill, rather just the way the game is played. I think it\'s unfair to use the argument that with Brooks at the helm, we score points - to support the idea that Brooks is good or qualified to play QB.

Is it Brooks\' fault that we can\'t stop anyone? Nope. Is it Brooks fault we can\'t score in the first quarter? Not entirely, but he plays the biggest role in that.

\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue

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Old 02-18-2005, 10:22 AM   #89
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i didnt see your post scotty when i did mine and probably vice versa. i think you can see my point in using mcmahon in example is to try someone like him AND take the $4mil and go for significant change elsewhere, not status quo just to get rid of ab. in fact i see it even larger light- move him, gain $6mil to invest otherwise and pickup a low first or second draft pick for him or another starting caliber linebacker. i think those wishing for greater overhaul (not bashers per se) believe they know this poison and have had enough of it. another scenario with a garcia, mcmahon, whoever might not yield better results, but then again it could. another year of the same poison though- a little more than one fumble every game, the failures at such critical junctures, the buckwheat smile after throwing game ending interceptions, the i\'m so great jive, etc... whew, i\'d rather a different flavor poison. i think the probability of success ala having a journeyman come in and win big like a brad johnson in tampa bay, trent dilfer baltimore or kurt warner st. louis is just as likely, or more, than no change at all- especially with ab being a $6million dolar man.
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:40 AM   #90
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There\'s one big hole in the \"let\'s replace Brooks with someone who can \"manage\" the game\" theory.\"

1. QB\'s who manage the passing game only have success when a defense holds oppents to low scores.

Examples:
a.) Trent Dilfer in Baltimore.
b. ) Jake Delhomme in Carolina.
c. Ben Rolthisberger in Pittsburg.

Given the fact that our defense has given up the most points over the last few seasons, I see little effect another QB is gonna make. Unless we get someone like Mike Vick who can win games on his own.

So, before we get a QB who can \"manage\" the passing game, we better get a defense that can stop somebody.

2. If we get a defense who can stop somebody, maybe we won\'t have to rely on Brooks to win every game.
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