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i am so pathetic i read other teams message boards and their newspaper forums. some of you might get a chuckle from some of this thread i found in the miami herald-

know that this post may be a little "out there" but I was thinking of bad teams that had good QB's and the possibility they would want to trade for Surtain, any possibility the Saints would be interested in trading Aaron Brooks??? The Saints corners have been terrible for years and I was recalling how they made a major transition when they released both Sammy Knight and traded Laroi Glover...they seem like a team that is comfortable with drastic transition so maybe they would be okay with trading Brooks.
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i wouldnt trade Surtain for Brooks. he is too inconsistent
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That is such a bad idea. Brooks not very consistent plus he has not shown that ability to win games when they are on the line and that is in a system that he is very familiary with and with a lot of talent on offense. Trading away Surtain for him does not make sense. Based on Surtains value you either need to get top notch starter at a position or good picks
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I dont care about Brooks contract status, there is no way I would trade Surtain for him. You might as well give Surtain away if you are going to do that. Remember, Aaron Brooks, the same guy that spun around and threw a pass to guy behind him, only to realize it was an offensive lineman. Luckily the Saints recovered the "fumble", I think they only lost about 25 yards on the play.
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NOT A CHANCE IN HELL
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Aaron Brooks is as dumb as a box of rocks! No way!!
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Bad trade!!!! Brooks is not a winner. he puts up nice numbers but chokes in big spots. That would be a horrible trade.
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I wouldn't trade Surtain's soiled jockstrap for Brooks
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Now THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!! :rollinglaugh: I have said numerous times some members would be laughed off another forum the way they defend Brooks and criticize other established QBs. Case in point right there. I have often offered to post polls on other forums about Brooks and other QBs, but no takers. I guess we can see why. MIAMI FANS scoff at taking Brooks for a player who is being shopped around? Aren\'t they picking SECOND in the draft? That is priceless. Nice, nice find.

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Just curious, though. Did you include all of the comments, or just the negative ones? I am not trying to defend AB here but am just curious if there were any takers.

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Gatorman, :xxrotflmao:

Good point LB. I am curious to know if ANYONE thought it was a good idea.

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:fanclub: :rollinglaugh: :dancingmonkey: :roll: :lol: :crowd:

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no, there were no positive ones, just some that rambled about his status thinking he was a free agent is why i didnt post those.

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Priceless.

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Ask them if they would trade 3rd rounder for Brooks. You guys who want to get rid of Brooks seem to think we can get that or more in a trade for Brooks. It seems that is false too.

Furthermore, people acknowledge Brooks\' bad play here, including all those things that the MIA fans noted. I don\'t see how this is any sort of victory for the get rid of Brooks gang.

If anything, this shows we won\'t get good value for him on the market. This is reason to keep him.

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I think the point is that a team who has a WORSE QB situation than us and a WORSE record has fans who LAUGH at the possibility of attaining a QB who has started the last 4 years for our team and is free of blame by some. If the ringing endorsement to keep him is because EVERYONE in the league can see he is not worth much, how much of an endorsement is that? That\'s downright terrible. We might as well have Luke McCown or Ken Dorsey. I don\'t think they would draw must interest around the league either.

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You need to drop this. There is no such person who thinks that.

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Amen! I\'m not trying to pull your chain here, but those of us that typically defend Brooks are regularly accused of failing to find fault in him. This, to a man, isn\'t the case. We simply see other issues that affect his performance, and when we bring ANY of \'em up we\'re bashed into oblivion. We all see where Brooks could improve...some of us see the same \"potential to improve\" team-wide.

We need a MUCH better O-Line
We need some dependable WR\'s (someone besides Horn)
We need a running game (our was ranked 27th)
We need a defense

etc, etc. Why is it that pointing out these things makes other seem to think we\'ve given\' the QB a pass?

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Okay. I will disagree with that right off. You can not discuss Brooks\' faults with anyone who backs him without any factor that could contribute to his incompetence being brought up. Case in point,

Not to pick on saintfan, but we have had SOME form of excuse for AB for four years now. So if his faults can\'t be discussed WITHOUT bringing all these other things into it, he is being absolved from blame. I can easily say I don\'t have a better job cause Geroge Bush is president. But maybe I need to look at myself and say hey, it was me who decided not to finish college and start working cause I saw $$$. But it\'s EASIER to blame George than to blame myself, just like it seems it\'s EASIER for Brooks\' defenders to blame any and everyone besides Brooks. If I say, well I didn\'t finish college, but George Bush is still president so it\'s his fault I am held back, that is the SAME as saying Well, AB passes backwards to lineman and underhands to the opoosing team and leads the league in red zone turnovers, but that\'s cause of the line, and the receivers and the defense. HOW IS THAT PUTTING ANY BLAME ON AB? That\'s pointing out a fault and immediately making excuses for it. SO I disagree whole-heartedly with the noone on here does that cause it may not be outright love for AB, but if you are making excuses for terrible play as your only defense for him, as is the norm, then you aren\'t really blaming him, and what I said stands.

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Talk about a perfect example! These aren\'t \"excuses\" for Brooks. This is just how the Broos bashers view it. These are all very valid issues that have a LOT to do with how well a QB performs, and the Saints CLEARLY have issues in these areas, but rather than acknowledge ANY of them we are accused of making excuses for Brooks, which has never been true.

I acknowledge Brooks has made some boneheaded plays, and I can name many players you\'d consider to be his caliber (or more or less) that have made similar plays, but you\'d turn it in to me giving Brooks a pass rather than acknowledge it.

You wanna discuss his \"faults\", fine, but a lot of what you consider to be his fault and his fault alone I happen to think is at least partly combined with other factors -- not in all cases, but in most.

Example: Brooks takes too many steps away from the offensive line.

I would agree with this, but I am also ready to acknowledge that the offensive line quite often blocked poorly enough to make it necessary for Brooks to run away from it. I saw it a thousand times this past year if I saw it once, so I see both as issues where you seem to only see the one. You\'ll insist that Brooks inability to audible is the sole reason for the poor blocking, but I\'m of the opinion that our line just isn\'t very good, and I think most here would agree -- except that one guy (not you) that thinks our o-line typically excelled.

Let me ask you this Whodi -- Why was our line so bad this year? Is it because they just aren\'t very good, or is it Brooks fault? Are you gonna use Brooks as an excuse to defend our o-line?

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Just to make sure it\'s understood where I am coming from, we do know AB has the CHOICE NOT to throw backwards to a lineman right? And he has a choice NOT to throw under-handed to an opposing team\'s defenders right? These are things not brought on by the line or the receivers or the defense, but the CHOICES AB makes. So maybe if we look at the fact the mistakes he is more criticized for are ones he has an option NOT TO MAKE, then maybe we can get close to being on the same accord. And this is after FOUR YEARS as a starter. So if we have an AB disagreement and we discuss AB, and not all the excuses that can be made for AB, more members wouldn\'t feel like some are absolving him of all blame, and I KNOW I am not the first to say that this is the sentiment around here. I am late to the bandwagon on that one.

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Again saintfan, that is exactly what I am saying. NOONE who defends Brooks will talk about JUST BROOKS. I made a post while you were typign I guess about the CHOICES AB makes that he can choose not to make so I think that will answer your question, hopefully. Also

Please show me that. And by similar let me be specific, leading the league in red zone turnovers(well, only one person can do that, and he is all ours), 20 yard backward passes to linemen, under-handed passes to LBs within the opposing team\'s red zone, and fumbles without being touched. Not trying to argue, but I really wanna see similar players and examples of that. Being that I watch Saints games in sportsbars with 4-5 51\" screens on all different games, I would like to know the examples you have seen that I haven\'t SIMILAR to what AB has done.

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Also saintfan, help me out here, why are statements like \"we need help on o=line, our receivers drop balls, and we need better defense\" made out to be definitive statements but if someone says \"Brooks makes bone-headed plays,\" it always comes with a but. But this this and this. Why don\'t Brooks defenders say, we have a bad o-line BUT our coaching is poor and the schemes were too complicated. Or our receivers drop balls BUT AB does not deliver the ball well at times and again coaches were poor. Or our defense was bad BUT it didn\'t help that our offense couldn\'t score in the first quarter and we had numerous turnovers and 3 and outs AND coaching was poor. How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, when like someone else pointed out, his has been the only position not to change in the last 5 years and we are still mediocre? I think this lends to the feeling there are some who feel AB can do no wrong. Make excuses for the whole team if you are gonna make excuses, not the one person on the team just about EVERYONE, including people on other forums and the media, criticize.

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How many years has Brooks Led the league in Red Zone Turnovers? Should he improve on that number next year? I\'d hope so.

The pass to the lineman was an odd play to be sure, and who wouldn\'t blame Brooks for it? I\'d also like to know what the lineman was doing back there to begin with.

The underhanded pass was a boneheaded play...likely the result of Brooks trying to make something happen. This was his fault to be sure, but it\'s not like his in a league of his own because of it. Brett Farve ring a bell? Jake Delhomme throwing the ball up for grabs? This is something EVERY QB has done (and most of \'em still do from time to time), but you speak as tho he\'s the only one.

Are you trying to tell me you\'ve NEVER seen ANY OTHER QB make those or similar type plays? Even the \"great\" ones? Heck man, Brett Farve makes serveral a year.

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Speaking for myself, I don\'t think I make \"excuses\"...I think you misunderstand where I\'m coming from, but to answer your question, I think it\'s likely because he\'s the only player on the team being held responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with the team.

One particular poster here once blamed Aaron Brooks for the inability of the defense to stop a screen! I understand you seem to think replacing Brooks should be a priority, and I disagree. Would you trade him for the Miami QB straight up? Probably...

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Not many QBs I WOULDN\'T trade him for straight up, but not Miami\'s. That\'s what makes this funnier. Their fans wouldn\'t trade a player they know is gonna leave anyway for our QB. Do you not see the irony in that? ;)

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Also, last year he led the league in lost fumbles. I guess trading one for the other can be considered improvement somehow. ;)

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I think they hear what is being hollered the loudest, to be honest. I\'m not now nor have I ever said Brooks was Montana, but I do think he has everything it takes to win the big game -- he just needs a better o-line, and running game better than ours (27th), more than ONE WR that can run routes and catch, and a defense. And yes, he should be more careful with the ball -- which happens to be something I could say about Vic, Delhomme, Farve, and more.

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Before I read everything that transpired after my post, which I\'m sure follows the usual stuff, I want to say this:

Being free of blame usually means having NO blame. The fact that there are factors that that influence how well Brooks plays (the same way in which Brooks influences the play of otherss) does NOT make him free of blame.

In fact, having an excuse does not make one free of blame. Blame and mitigating circumstances are compatible NOT mutually exclusive. It is still my fault I dropped the priceless vase, even if you scared the sh-t out of me making me lose my grip.

No one, and I really don\'t care if you disagree (just find me a case) says that Brooks is blameless. Some people think that the amount of blame he takes is mitigated by other factors - but no one that I have ever read here has said that Brooks is to blame for nothing (that view is just stupid, and there is no one here stupid enough to hold it).

Now I\'ll read the other stuff and respond if necessary.

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But those QBs all have better winning percentages than AB, better QB ratings, Vick has no receivers except a tight end, and AB DID NOT have a worse team last year than this year. See what I am saying, it\'s always an excuse. What is the excuse for last year? The line was better, not great but better, and we were one of the top rushing teams in the league. What was the excuse for \'02? \'01? I don\'t know about you, I would rather have Favre making mistakes IN THE PLAYOFFS than not getting to the playoffs, same with Vick, same with Delhomme. Delhomme\'s team was good as ours without half the talent this year. He had one receiver too, Muhammed. Also, I don\'t see \"you know these QBs make mistakes\" as being similar to what AB has done. Ab throws into coverage liek Favre, but he adds that extra bone-headed play for kicks. Vick may not be a great passer, but he makes up for it by being a playmaker. I saw one horrible play by Delhomme last year, on a depleted by injury 1-7 team before they turned it around, what\'s AB\'s excuse again?

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No.

I\'m sure Danno can provide a helpful dictionary link to resolve this.

Furthermore, if someone said the OLine was terrible. And someone else said, the OLine was bad because Brooks backs into the rush. Would that make the OLine BLAMELESS for their sh-ty play? I don\'t think so.

Just because there are factors that influence how bad something was does not make that thing free of being bad (or blameworthy) - it just makes that thing less blameworthy (and maybe less bad) than it would have been if those factors had not pertained.

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I didn\'t realize there were so many agenda-mongers in Miami. LOL.

CLEARLY, all those people who said AB is too inconsistent to warrant real consideration in a trade don\'t watch the games, love Jake Delhomme, and are simply on a personal mission to fulfill some grudge against a guy they don\'t know. LOL.

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Does Brooks step on the field and play ball by himself?

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Kool, excuses are absolving blame. If you read my post about the CHOICES AB makes, and you agree, the discussion can end there. Because he has the CHOICE not to make those stupid mistakes again and again and again. Everythign else is semantics. Boil it down to the choices he makes and the choices he does not have to make. That\'s black and white and eliminates any EXCUSES OR MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES. For instance, let\'s say AB takes a sack instead of passing to Gandy, or takes a sack instead of passing to Mobley or Wilson or whomever for the Broncos, then I really would have no argument. But the fact he CHOOSES to make these mistakes as a 4 1/2 year starter is of great concern to me. Now discuss just AB and these CHOICES, and we may see some common ground.

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No, but he sure makes stupid plays on his own, unless it\'s Joe Horn\'s fault he does it. Then wait, it probably is.

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Whodi, if you wanna be bull-headed that\'s fine, but by refusing to acknowledge other factors you\'re not allowing yourself to see the whole picture -- in my opinion.

Throwing the ball hopelessly downfield is no different that throwing an underhanded pass into a crowd in desperation, and least I don\'t think it is. Making a stupid play, regardless of the talent on the team, is still making a stupid play.

Some would say that Brooks has never had more than one quality WR in his time here -- Joe Horn -- and I\'d agree. Yet this team manages to score enough points to win, and they have done so in each of Brooks\' years here...down a bit last year, but still more than 20 points a game, yet you wanna scrap the QB in favor of what, exactly? Maybe another QB could come in and play both ways? Until we stop somebody we don\'t have a chance, and we\'d have a pretty good chance if we changed NOTHING on our offense and had a half-decent defense.

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Surely you are joking Who. Noone outside this forum can possibly think anything negative about Brooks. I must be fooling myself with what I see and wanting to get rid of him. Damn those Miami fans and their anti-Brooks agendas. And they have such a great QB position and record to talk too. ;)

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I don\'t know what excuses have to do with it, but this is idea that he is the only fixed thing making us mediocre is just a bad argument. Here is an example.

Imagine you have a team of five people, say A, B, C, D, and E. The team does poorly so the next year you replace E with F. The team does poorly so the next year you replace C with G. The team does poorly so the next year you replace B with H. The team does poorly so the next year you replace H with I. Now the only fixed element of the team is A, but how confident are you in saying that A is the reason the team did poorly? I\'m not very confident in that hypothesis. Think of all the possible combinations of conclusions you could draw. On a straight line probability, it is very unlikely that the conclusion A is the problem is true. In fact, it is just as likely that B, C, D, and H were the problem. Or B and H, or C, and H, and D. And so on and so on and so on.

[Edited on 17/2/2005 by JKool]

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But it\'s not just ONE stupid play is it? Do you see now? Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone.

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We already agree on this. We all agree that Brooks makes bad choices and makes bad plays - NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT. NO ONE.

What we do disagree on is the extent to which that makes him blameworthy. That can not be decided on an individual basis when these guys play a team game. If you do not agree with that, we have nothing to say to each other on this topic. I simply cannot understand how a player can be evaluated completely in isolation, when he does not play completely in isolation.

On the dimension you demand that we evaluate him - no one disagrees.

Furthermore, whether Brooks has to throw the ball away or take a sack may be on him, but how he ended up in that position is NOT always on him (a missed block, a poorly run route, a well called and concealed blitz). Thus, I fail to see how often we are even able to evaluate him on the consideration you have in mind (maybe once or twice a game?).

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Nice assessment but it is not the idea that he is the ONLY fixed thing making us mediocre, but he is THE ONE fixed thing on a consistently mediocre team. We have tried to fix pretty much everything else, but Mr. Fumbles gets to stay. I have no idea why you guys can\'t understand a QB who leads the league in lost fumbles, then leads the league in red zone turnovers on top of incresingly bone-headed plays outside of that is BAD for a team. If this was someone else\'s QB we would be laughing our asses off that they had him. Not in New Orleans, here excuses flow like beads from a MArdi Gras float. But we do laugh at Vinny T in Dallas and Peyton Mannign not getting to the Superbowl. I guess that\'s even. We criticize Favre and Vick and players who get to the playoffs and win, but this guy we have who is a joke elsewhere has a blank check of excuses. In the words of Danno, like Deuce, I give up.

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So what?

Each QB is unique? That would be shocking, wouldn\'t it?

If someone couldn\'t find a QB identical to Brooks, other than Brooks, he is the worst QB ever? He is a bad QB? He should be traded for a puck bag? What? What follows from this suggestion?

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Kool, like I told saintfan, fine me this QB

and I will have nothing more to say on the subject.

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What I see is someone who refuses accept that, while Brooks has his faults, that some of the issues with this team aren\'t HIS fault. I see someone who\'d rather argue about how bad he thinks Brooks is rather than acknowledge that with a half-decent defense the Saints would have made the playoffs last year and probably the year before.

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You do realize these are stats YOU DON\'T WANT your Qb to lead the league in right? I give up. This is hopeless.

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That doesn\'t avoid the problem my example raised.

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Again, I give up. :casstet: