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How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by Danno I agree about the square pegs in round holes, but I disagree about the 3-4 and about Jordan. Cam is one of the best DE's in the NFL and they are very hard to come by. ...

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Old 11-21-2015, 12:31 PM   #21
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
I agree about the square pegs in round holes, but I disagree about the 3-4 and about Jordan. Cam is one of the best DE's in the NFL and they are very hard to come by. He's equally effective in a 3-4 as he is in 4-3.

To me, Davison looks like a great 3-tech in a 4-3, with the ability to play the NT (4-3) as well.

To me, the future looks like a 4-3 with Jenkins at nose and Davison at the 3 tech, Cam and Richardson on the ends.

Obviously Anthony at MLB, with Kikaha at SLB and Ellerbe at WLB.

I say we stick to a base 4-3 (occasionally mixing in some 3-4) and focus on upgrading OLB and the DE on the other side of Cam.
So help me understand. You propose this front 7:

Jordan Davison Jenkins Richardson
Ellerbe Anthony Kikaha

Now that's 7 players that we currently have on the roster, right?
Yet there has been no consistent pass rush or run stoppage from this, or any other front 7 group of personnel.

So how exactly what is going to improve to significantly change the performance of this proposed front 7 with no significant personnel changes?

SFIAH
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:11 PM   #22
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
So help me understand. You propose this front 7:

Jordan Davison Jenkins Richardson
Ellerbe Anthony Kikaha

Now that's 7 players that we currently have on the roster, right?
Yet there has been no consistent pass rush or run stoppage from this, or any other front 7 group of personnel.

So how exactly what is going to improve to significantly change the performance of this proposed front 7 with no significant personnel changes?

SFIAH
And those players in a 3-4 would change how?

We fired our DC. My guess is because he was a bad DC, meaning he couldn't get his talent to perform.

My post was about which scheme best fit our players. It had nothing to do with how bad they played under Rob Ryan.
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Old 11-21-2015, 07:33 PM   #23
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

I hope we're not counting on Ellerbe. Guy can't stay on the field. Not looking too great for Lewis either.
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:07 PM   #24
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
And those players in a 3-4 would change how?
I have no idea. My gut is telling me that the defense is going to be bad with the existing personnel regardless of scheme.
We fired our DC. My guess is because he was a bad DC, meaning he couldn't get his talent to perform.
I don't think that it's that simple. Usually firing coaches is a function of the fact that players cannot easily be fired due to their contracts negotiated under the CBA. You cannot get rid of the players, so get rid of the coach.
My post was about which scheme best fit our players. It had nothing to do with how bad they played under Rob Ryan.
I understand. I pitched an entire thread asking the same question.

SFIAH
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:06 AM   #25
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
I agree about the square pegs in round holes, but I disagree about the 3-4 and about Jordan. Cam is one of the best DE's in the NFL and they are very hard to come by. He's equally effective in a 3-4 as he is in 4-3.

To me, Davison looks like a great 3-tech in a 4-3, with the ability to play the NT (4-3) as well.

To me, the future looks like a 4-3 with Jenkins at nose and Davison at the 3 tech, Cam and Richardson on the ends.

Obviously Anthony at MLB, with Kikaha at SLB and Ellerbe at WLB.

I say we stick to a base 4-3 (occasionally mixing in some 3-4) and focus on upgrading OLB and the DE on the other side of Cam.
Jordan is a very good DE but with more players being more 3-4 ready and basing a D around a 4-3 DE instead of a NT or pure DT I wouldn't do. I would trade for the final pieces of a 3-4 and go from there. If we stay 4-3 our middle surely needs to be adressed which include both DT's and MLB or it will stay the same. Another poster said that we have basically waisted Brees years for not having a D, I'm agreeing with that more than ever now.
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Old 11-22-2015, 03:22 PM   #26
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Jordan is Will Smith 2.0...

He'll have good games against backups and mediocre players, but disappears in big games because he lacks elite talent...

I'd trade him for a second/third round pick and keep bringing in younger, cap-friendly talent...

Like the above posters stated, we have more 3-4 personnel than 4-3 and justifying Jordan's contract seems to be the only reason for the 4-3...

Another thought, get Clemson Defensive Coordinator Brent Venables; despite losing multiple stars to the draft, he's got that defense in the National Championship at No. 1...

“Your best?!? Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home (with) the prom queen.” - Sean Connery in The Rock
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Old 11-22-2015, 03:47 PM   #27
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
To me, Davison looks like a great 3-tech in a 4-3, with the ability to play the NT (4-3) as well.

To me, the future looks like a 4-3 with Jenkins at nose and Davison at the 3 tech, Cam and Richardson on the ends.

Obviously Anthony at MLB, with Kikaha at SLB and Ellerbe at WLB.

I say we stick to a base 4-3 (occasionally mixing in some 3-4) and focus on upgrading OLB and the DE on the other side of Cam.
Rather than agree to disagree over Jordan, let's look at some of the other personnel...

Consider...

Davison is not going to generate pass rush; you need a 3-tech (A. Donald) to get after the passer; he is, however, a great nose tackle capable of collapsing a pocket...

Jenkins had the size to be a great nose tackle until we inexplicably had him slim down to play a 3-tech...

bulk him back up and rotate with Davison and you'll have one of the best, freshest NT rotations in the league...

Richardson has the size for a 4-3 or 3-4 defensive end, his pass rush skills are limited by his experience, but he's a great rotation guy...

Linebackers...

Well, we've got the high-motored OLB Kasim Edebali sitting on...the bench?!?

Put him in across from Hau'oli Kikaha; we've seem some good things when both those guys are in...

Then you put Stephone Anthony and Dannell Ellerbe (when healthy) in the middle; Ellerbe was much better in the 3-4 (Baltimore, first year Miami) than he is in the 4-3...

Now you've limited the front seven area of responsibility and allow them to read faster and make plays rather than depend on the secondary for play making...

Let three of our big guys rotate and plow and clog against the oppositions five offensive linemen, gaining a numbers advantage...

and then randomly attack with these athletic linebacker we have from the various four spots (one example - zone blitzing, stunts)...

We also have some other great players on the practice squad and injured reserve...

OLB Davis Tull, NT Ashaad Mabry, DL Lawrence Virgil and NT Austin Brown...

They can come in next season and compete to make that front better with a consistent, fresh rotation...

But with the current pass rush "led" by Cam Jordan, we're just going to see more of the same regardless if Rob Ryan is on our sideline or not...
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:06 PM   #28
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
Rather than agree to disagree over Jordan, let's look at some of the other personnel...

Consider...

Davison is not going to generate pass rush; you need a 3-tech (A. Donald) to get after the passer; he is, however, a great nose tackle capable of collapsing a pocket...

Jenkins had the size to be a great nose tackle until we inexplicably had him slim down to play a 3-tech...

bulk him back up and rotate with Davison and you'll have one of the best, freshest NT rotations in the league...

Richardson has the size for a 4-3 or 3-4 defensive end, his pass rush skills are limited by his experience, but he's a great rotation guy...

Linebackers...

Well, we've got the high-motored OLB Kasim Edebali sitting on...the bench?!?

Put him in across from Hau'oli Kikaha; we've seem some good things when both those guys are in...

Then you put Stephone Anthony and Dannell Ellerbe (when healthy) in the middle; Ellerbe was much better in the 3-4 (Baltimore, first year Miami) than he is in the 4-3...

Now you've limited the front seven area of responsibility and allow them to read faster and make plays rather than depend on the secondary for play making...

Let three of our big guys rotate and plow and clog against the oppositions five offensive linemen, gaining a numbers advantage...

and then randomly attack with these athletic linebacker we have from the various four spots (one example - zone blitzing, stunts)...

We also have some other great players on the practice squad and injured reserve...

OLB Davis Tull, NT Ashaad Mabry, DL Lawrence Virgil and NT Austin Brown...

They can come in next season and compete to make that front better with a consistent, fresh rotation...

But with the current pass rush "led" by Cam Jordan, we're just going to see more of the same regardless if Rob Ryan is on our sideline or not...
I like how you laid that out. If just 1 of the practice squad NT can beef up to be quality depth and draft a DE that can clog his side with drafting depth at the lb.ers spot and PJ getting healthy I don't think a 3-4 want work. Might be a really easy transition. Get the draft picks for Jordan, win, win. And Payton would still have plenty of picks to shore up the O-line + whatever toys he wants.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:12 PM   #29
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Re: How the Saints' defense became the worst in the NFL, again

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
Rather than agree to disagree over Jordan, let's look at some of the other personnel...

Consider...

Davison is not going to generate pass rush; you need a 3-tech (A. Donald) to get after the passer; he is, however, a great nose tackle capable of collapsing a pocket...

Jenkins had the size to be a great nose tackle until we inexplicably had him slim down to play a 3-tech...

bulk him back up and rotate with Davison and you'll have one of the best, freshest NT rotations in the league...

Richardson has the size for a 4-3 or 3-4 defensive end, his pass rush skills are limited by his experience, but he's a great rotation guy...

Linebackers...

Well, we've got the high-motored OLB Kasim Edebali sitting on...the bench?!?

Put him in across from Hau'oli Kikaha; we've seem some good things when both those guys are in...

Then you put Stephone Anthony and Dannell Ellerbe (when healthy) in the middle; Ellerbe was much better in the 3-4 (Baltimore, first year Miami) than he is in the 4-3...

Now you've limited the front seven area of responsibility and allow them to read faster and make plays rather than depend on the secondary for play making...

Let three of our big guys rotate and plow and clog against the oppositions five offensive linemen, gaining a numbers advantage...

and then randomly attack with these athletic linebacker we have from the various four spots (one example - zone blitzing, stunts)...

We also have some other great players on the practice squad and injured reserve...

OLB Davis Tull, NT Ashaad Mabry, DL Lawrence Virgil and NT Austin Brown...

They can come in next season and compete to make that front better with a consistent, fresh rotation...

But with the current pass rush "led" by Cam Jordan, we're just going to see more of the same regardless if Rob Ryan is on our sideline or not...
Allen will blitz more and we may see a little better of a D but in reality we're still the same just putting more pressure from the lb.'ers but the front 4 will still lack.
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