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Character matters most...

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Teams have spent millions of dollars scouting, administering physical and psychological tests and performing background checks on potential draftees, as the question of a player\'s character was never more of an issue than it is today. But, even after NFL ...

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Old 02-20-2005, 03:00 PM   #11
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Character matters most...

Teams have spent millions of dollars scouting, administering physical and psychological tests and performing background checks on potential draftees, as the question of a player\'s character was never more of an issue than it is today.

But, even after NFL teams find out that a player has a \"questionable past\", it does not deter a team from drafting a player. Although most teams would rather avoid using a high draft pick to acquire a player with known behavioral problems, it seems to be increasingly more difficult to find players who do not have any questions of character surrounding them.

No one wants a player with character problems. But most NFL clubs know that it usually takes some of these types to win.

Where would Brian Bilick be without Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis? He\'d have one less super bowl victory, that\'s where he would be.

And most fans only think of character as an after-thought. No one wants Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis cut in Baltimore. That is ... as long as they are producing.

I\'ve always noticed when a team is winning, the low character guys aren\'t much of a problem. (exp. - Dallas Cowboys of the 90\'s, Baltimore Ravens of 2000\'s). But just as soon as a team starts losing ... all of a sudden it\'s those low character guys who are the problem.
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Old 02-20-2005, 03:03 PM   #12
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Character matters most...

Which did you have in mind?
I don\'t separate on field from off field. If he is not a good role model, I consider that to be a bad \"characteristic\" in a player. It is not easy to be a good role-model, because you have to be careful about how you live your personal life and be conscious of the effect that the things you say and do have on other people, especially younger ones who look up to you and consider you as an idol. But that\'s just the way I feel. Some people don\'t care about all of that, but, maybe if they had children they would feel differently. Maybe not. I have negative feelings towards AB because of some of his characteristics both on the field and off. Again, when I make an opinion of someone, I consider the whole package.

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Old 02-20-2005, 03:33 PM   #13
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Character matters most...

Imagine a player with the following mental characteristics:
- good learner (he listens and learns from coaches, veterans, etc.)
- loves to play (he loves the game, is thankful for his opportunity to play, loves his team, etc.)
- has some fight (hustles, has a good motor, works hard in practice, etc.)
- takes it seriously (shows up on time, understand his role, etc.)
WOW!!! What a thought. That would be great. If only our_____________ was like that. He might learn to keep his mouth shut. He might learn to listen and learn all the things he\'s getting paid millions to do. He might learn what it means to be a leader whether it be silent or vocal. I won\'t turn this into another thread about a certain player but it sure makes one wonder.

As for character not being important or at least one of the most important things, I don\'t want anyone working for me that is of low character. Do you? Just because a good player is of questionable character doesn\'t make me want to sign him to a contract.Seems we signed a receiver a few years ago that wasn\'t of the best character. Where is he now? At home scratching his unemployed azz! Where most of the rest of these goons need to be.

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by JOESAM2002]

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Old 02-20-2005, 03:51 PM   #14
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Character matters most...

I think Billy\'s point was this:

Sure character is great, but it only seems to matter, football wise, when he isn\'t producing as we\'d like.

How many guys want Ray Lewis on this team? LOTS. Is he a good character guy? I don\'t think so.

LB, I understand your view. I was just thinking that if a guy at least had \"football character\" that would be a step in the right direction (and Joe seems to agree). Your idea is that character is all or nothing, in a sense.

Perhaps this is another way to put it: \"football character\" is just a sub-set of \"general character\", not a different thing. I guess I agree with you. I think though, we might say things like - this guy is a real azz, but at least he does his job (I know lots of people like that, outside the football world too). This way, we could demand that our players have AT LEAST \"football character\".

Does that sound right?

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Old 02-20-2005, 04:14 PM   #15
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Character matters most...

I think Billy\'s point was this:

Sure character is great, but it only seems to matter, football wise, when he isn\'t producing as we\'d like.

How many guys want Ray Lewis on this team? LOTS. Is he a good character guy? I don\'t think so.

LB, I understand your view. I was just thinking that if a guy at least had \"football character\" that would be a step in the right direction (and Joe seems to agree). Your idea is that character is all or nothing, in a sense.

Perhaps this is another way to put it: \"football character\" is just a sub-set of \"general character\", not a different thing. I guess I agree with you. I think though, we might say things like - this guy is a real azz, but at least he does his job (I know lots of people like that, outside the football world too). This way, we could demand that our players have AT LEAST \"football character\".

Does that sound right?
I see your point, and the person you describe would at least have some redeeming qualities, or characteristics. However, the guy that does his job and is a good role-model to boot would be a cut above the other guy, IMO.

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Old 02-20-2005, 04:40 PM   #16
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Character matters most...

Sure character is great, but it only seems to matter, football wise, when he isn\'t producing as we\'d like.
Uh yeah - but so what? For the most part, if a guy shows up every day and does his job, who cares if he\'s an a$$hole off the field? I mean, what is the team concerned with? Their multi-million dollar investment. If the guy produces like he\'s supposed to, then who cares?

BUT - when his antics or what have you start to affect the team, then it\'s a problem. That doesn\'t make sense? There are two types of these - as far as I can tell. Producers whose poor character is so bad that it still outweighs their benefit (at least sometimes). And those who can\'t even begin to produce b/c of their problems.

Randy Moss or Jamal Lewis might be examples of the first group. Guys who are good players, but whose BS on and off the field constantly causes problems for the TEAM - whether it be through distractions or b/c the player can\'t participate b/c he\'s suspended.

Then there\'s the opposite group. Guys like Sullivan, who despite all the talent in the world, cannot even begin to produce b/c he\'s too lazy to work. The corner we picked up from Buffalo whose name I can\'t remember right now is another good example of off the field problems that keep a guy from even suiting up.

But yeah, character only becomes an issue when a guy isn\'t producing. Why? B/c if he\'s a good enough athlete, what\'s keeping him from performing? His attitude.

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he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 02-20-2005, 04:50 PM   #17
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Character matters most...

If the guy produces like he\'s supposed to, then who cares?
It took 2 years for WhoDat to reverse his stance on this issue.

So........ you don\'t give a damn about character if the guy produces, huh? Glad you feel that way.

That\'s the samething I\'ve said MANY times. And each time WhoDat criticized me for saying it. I guess you can teach on old dog new tricks. Go fetch boy...lol
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Old 02-20-2005, 06:56 PM   #18
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Character matters most...

I intend the word \"produce\" to mean \"does his job.\" To me, that involves the ability to read a defense, lead a team, or throw a touch pass, when speaking about a QB. AB does not \"produce\" to a level commisserate with his pay, mouth, or team expectations. I\'ve never said that character matter and performance is irrelevant. In fact, I\'ve maintained the exact opposite. To me, saying a person is overpaid (meaning his value as a \"performer\" is less than the demands of his salary), or that intangibles are inherent in expectations and affect performance is not to say that character is all that matters, nor does it mean that statistics are the only relevant measure. But I wouldn\'t expect you to understand.

What\'s your argument now Billy? Performance is all that matters (unless you\'re talking about AB and then it doesn\'t matter b/c it\'s all really his line\'s fault, and his WRs\' fault, and his RBs\' fault)... or that character does matter (but only when you\'re bashing the one constant Pro Bowler on the team, not when you\'re talking about an egomaniac QB who is insulting his teammates)??? Which is it?

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 02-20-2005, 07:26 PM   #19
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Character matters most...

WhoDat --

I didn\'t want to bring AB in to yet another thread. But ... since you did, I will respond.

First ... in this particular thread, I was discussing character as it relates to football players in general.

I don\'t think anyone can argue that many players with questionable character have played instrumental roles in their teams success. ( i.e. Michael Irvin, Jamal Lewis, Ray Lewis)

And I don\'t think anyone can argue that players with questionalble character have played large roles in the down fall of their teams. i.e. (Ricky Williams)

My stance has always been if a player is producing, then I\'m not really worried about their character.

The only arguement I\'ve ever had with you or anyone else on the character issue is when I\'m told a player can\'t succeed without good character. That\'s been said many times, or suggested. I\'ve even been told that character is the most important thing!! I don\'t buy that. Never have and never will.

Ideally I would like all of our players to have outstanding character. I\'d like them to be good citizens, give back to the community, and be good role models for the kids.

But that\'s just not realistic when it comes to the NFL. Or ANY sport as far as that\'s concerned. Just check out the NBA?!

Now ... on AB.

I don\'t think there\'s anything wrong with Brooks\' character. He\'s broken no laws. Never even been accused of a crime. Shows up for practice everday. Generally, I think he does what the coaches ask.

I think Brooks\' problem is a lack of maturity. Not character. He hasn\'t handled the criticism well. He\'s said some STUPID things. He\'s acted very childish when he\'s been confronted about certain things. He seems very sensetive.

I would love it if Brooks just quit commenting to the media or just accepted the all the blame regardless of whether he deserved it or not.

But - I can understand how the criticism could get to a QB. I saw Chad Pennington have a total meltdown in front of the media.

What Brooks says really doesn\'t bother me like it does a lot of folks. I don\'t really think it\'s affecting his teammates either.

Brooks has been criticized both fairly and unfairly. The smart thing for him to have done is just to roll with the punches.

I can understand why his comments upset fans. But, I cannot understand why some folks are on the HATE WAGON when it comes to Brooks.
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Old 02-20-2005, 07:55 PM   #20
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Character matters most...

I could be wrong here, but I\'m guessing Billy just wants to down play \"Character\" because a few here have questioned AB\'s character.
That\'s not it at all. I just don\'t agree with folks who think players have to have great character to succeed in the NFL.

And I don\'t agree with the folks who think character is the most important thing when selecting football players for your team.

That\'s my only arguement.

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