3 and outs made our defense look bad?

GumboBC · 02-23-2005, 11:43 AM

Okay, How many 3 and outs did our defense provide, and first drive punts?

Glad to get back to football talk

Yeah, let\'s get back to some football discussion.

I\'ll keep this simple:

The Saints offense made 18.2 first downs per game - NFL rank=17th. Saints defense ranked 32nd!

The Eagles offense made 18.8 first downs per game - NFL rank= 14th. Eagles defense ranked 10th.

What do I draw from this conclusion?

The Eagles defense was good and ours sucked.

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 11:58 AM

Glad you asked lynwwod. Took me some time but I got what you wanted. These stats are keeping in mind that our offense WAS NOT SCORING and was going 3 and out on the defense. Also I didn\'t add the turnovers the defense cause early cause it was too time consuming, but we were top 10 in takeaways and we had 3 alone in the first half of the Seattle game. Draw your own conclusions. Anyway, if you are looking for what I think you were, except for a few games you will be disappointed. I will also add the points each team scored against us 1st quarter while our offense was doing nothing.

SEA- 1st drive punt. 0 points first quarter given up.
SF- 3 and out 1st drive. 3 points first quarter
ST.L- 1st drive TD. 7 points given up 1st quarter
ARI- Brooks fumbles at the 1. D forces punt. 7 points total first quarter
TB- 1st drive field goal. 3 pts 1st quarter.
Minn-1st drive INT. 7 pts. 1st quarter
OAK- 1st drive punt. 6 pts
SD-1st 2 drives TDs. 14 pts.
KC- 1st drive TD. 10 pts.
DEN. 1st 3 drives score. 17 pts then Mike Lewis fumbles and they add a FG. 20 pts scored.
ATL- 1st drive 3 and out and punt.
CAR- 1st 2 drives FGs. Deuce fumbles. CAR adds TD. 13 points scored.
DAL- Berker kicks off out of bounds. Dallas 1st drive no points. 10 1st quarter.
TB- 1st drive TD. 7 for the quarter.
ATL-1st drive punt. Zero points 1st quarter.
CAR- 1st drive FG. 3 for the quarter.

As you can see, before the bye and early in the season, the D was doing a wonderful job in the 1st quarter while our offense was doing poo game after game after game after game. I didn\'t even include 1st quarter TOs unless they occured on the first drive. They went through a stretch of real bad games, then got better again. Offense still doing poo. In the games where special teams bailed the O out in the first quarter late in the season, they played very well again. Now who let who down again?

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 12:18 PM

Just to clarify, this means in the first quarter when our offense was doing NOTHING, the defense was giving up 7.3215 points. This is with the offense turning the ball over and going 3 and out. But I guess some want perfection from one unit while another is crapping all over them. And I even kept the fact that some turnovers by the offense or special teams led directly to points or that number would be lower if I had taken that out. Yeah, I see how anyone can feel it\'s all the D\'s fault. :icon_bs:

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 12:36 PM

Whodi, you keep talking about turnovers in the first game. How many did the defense create in, say, the next 10 games? Just curious. You use that ONE game as some sort of indication that our defense didn\'t suck. I think we all generally agree that they DID SUCK, or do you disagree?

I guess what I\'m getting at is are you really trying to make folks think the offense was responsible for the #32 ranking of the defense?

lynwood · 02-23-2005, 12:45 PM

Thanks for the info. I do believe that our defense would have at least kept us at least close in the majority of the games if our offense could have provided early points and some balance. What i was looking for was some type of comparison on what the other terams managed on their first drive. with all the field goals and bad defending field posistion i\'m not down on the defense at all.

lynwood · 02-23-2005, 12:57 PM

Saintsfan do you think that our offense deserved the ranking it got not being able to score practically at alll in the first half? The offense and defense although separate are a team. one does feed off the other. with the offense crapping out in the first half we were lucky to hold other teams to the points we did. Not that our defense had flaws but not 32nd rated flaws. The defense \"performed\" better during the last four games could it be because our offense outscored our opponents 43-26 in the first half of those games?

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 01:18 PM

Saintsfan do you think that our offense deserved the ranking it got not being able to score practically at alll in the first half?

Deserved it\'s ranking? I\'m not sure I understand what you mean, \"deserved\". Team? Yeah, and throw in special teams too, they all determine the outcome, and I agree with this.

My thing is that it appears as tho Whodi is attempting to blame the offense for the completely crappy defense, and while the offense can at times put the defense in bad situations, that doesn\'t account for being DEAD LAST.

I don\'t think a defense that gives up near record yardage over the course of a season should attempt to blame too much of that on the offense.

lynwood · 02-23-2005, 01:29 PM

well points win games and we didn\'t score any. The coment about deserved was worded badly.We can look at any stat to prove a point but in the end points win games and the offense wasn\'t doing it. The defense was holding the opponents to 7.3 points according to some stats posted earlier. I just feel that what the offense did during the first half of games put our defense in a very bad spot and they still held oppenents to more field goals than touchdowns. If our offense could have produced something i thin kthe defense would have played even better as the game progressed. The defense played better the last 4 games but so did the offense by scoring more in the first half

saintswhodi · 02-23-2005, 01:49 PM

Exactly the point I was trying to make lynwood. saintfan, would you say by these numbers our offense DIDN\"T hurt the D? Really? NOONE said the defense wasn\'t bad. But if you have a defense that is 10th in creating turnovers, which we were, there is obviously a bigger story there. I really don\'t know how else to explain it. Offense gets the ball, does nothing. Other team\'s O gets the ball, does nothing, or maybe gets a field goal. Our offense gets the ball back does nothing, or turns it over. Defense has to stop the opposing team again, say they do or say worse case they give up a TD. Now you are down 7 or 10 depending, but your offense has had two shots and failed to even produce a first down, WHICH IS THE NORM. And we weren\'t playing Pittsburgh\'s defense every week, or even a team close. SO offense gets a 3rd try, 2 runs and an incompletion later, it\'s the 2nd quarter and not only have they not SCORED, they may not have a first down. So in your mind, the defense is responsible for not still holdung up after that? Wow.

Whodi, you keep talking about turnovers in the first game. How many did the defense create in, say, the next 10 games? Just curious. You use that ONE game as some sort of indication that our defense didn\'t suck. I think we all generally agree that they DID SUCK, or do you disagree?

Again, we were 10th in the league. NFL.com, go look it up. I even provided a link earlier in the thread. Before I repeat myself,

Makes us top 10 no? In the Seattle game alone, the D had 3 takeaways in the first half. Guess how many points the O got? 7. And the D held Seattle to 14 all game until a turnover by he who shall not be mentioned giving Seattle the ball in the red zone. Offense DEFINITELY let the D down, as the D did give them the ball often, as they are top 10 in takeaways. Seattle, Green Bay, Denver, Minny, Philly, Atlanta, even Pittsburhg(number one D in the league) had less takeaways than our D. ]

This is what I said earlier.

And followed with this

Huh? You lost me on this one Kool. Isn\'t getting the ball back to the offense most of what you were saying? The D did just that better than 22 other teams, AND better than 7 playoff teams and one of them with the number one D in the league and another went to the Superbowl. How can you ask for more of them? Ask any fan in the league if they wanted a D top 10 in takeaways, they would say hell yeah. The D gave our O more opportunities than 22 other teams, that stat eclipses any TOP stat. Our O\'s inability to do ANYTHING with those turnovers was the killer. Imagine you have a company with two main departments, R & D(offense) and client acqusition(defense). Client acquisition is struggling, bad. Their numbers are low industry wide, but they are pretty good at call volume. R & D on the other hand, is more reactionary than proactive. Client acqusition gives them feedback on what potential customers say they want, but R & D is slow at putting these plans into tests and then action. Meanwhile because of the lack of support from R & D, acqusitions numbers stay down. Now if YOU were CEO, basically you would say, Acqusition is terrible, disregard the whole picture, and hire new people for acqusition. Meanwhile you are keeping R&D, and explaining away their culpability. So new folks in CA, same old same old from R&D. How long will it take for the same numbers to come in again?

If you\'d like to read back. Please tell me how the offense wasn\'t at least halfway responsible for how poor our D showed. Please.

saintfan · 02-23-2005, 02:38 PM

So then you ARE trying to say the performance of our D is the fault of the O? Or not? I still can\'t tell. You say we ranked 10th and you give me the Seattle game. Ok. How many did we get in the 10 games that followed Seattle. I haven\'t looked, I\'m just curious. You see to be saying our defense gave the offense all the oppurtunity they should have needed, and I simply disagree with that. You say they ranked 10th in turnovers. Ok. I say they ranked 32nd overall.

02-23-2005, 11:43 AM	#41
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Okay, How many 3 and outs did our defense provide, and first drive punts? Glad to get back to football talk Yeah, let\'s get back to some football discussion. I\'ll keep this simple: The Saints offense made 18.2 first downs per game - NFL rank=17th. Saints defense ranked 32nd! The Eagles offense made 18.8 first downs per game - NFL rank= 14th. Eagles defense ranked 10th. What do I draw from this conclusion? The Eagles defense was good and ours sucked.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-23-2005, 11:58 AM	#42
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Glad you asked lynwwod. Took me some time but I got what you wanted. These stats are keeping in mind that our offense WAS NOT SCORING and was going 3 and out on the defense. Also I didn\'t add the turnovers the defense cause early cause it was too time consuming, but we were top 10 in takeaways and we had 3 alone in the first half of the Seattle game. Draw your own conclusions. Anyway, if you are looking for what I think you were, except for a few games you will be disappointed. I will also add the points each team scored against us 1st quarter while our offense was doing nothing. SEA- 1st drive punt. 0 points first quarter given up. SF- 3 and out 1st drive. 3 points first quarter ST.L- 1st drive TD. 7 points given up 1st quarter ARI- Brooks fumbles at the 1. D forces punt. 7 points total first quarter TB- 1st drive field goal. 3 pts 1st quarter. Minn-1st drive INT. 7 pts. 1st quarter OAK- 1st drive punt. 6 pts SD-1st 2 drives TDs. 14 pts. KC- 1st drive TD. 10 pts. DEN. 1st 3 drives score. 17 pts then Mike Lewis fumbles and they add a FG. 20 pts scored. ATL- 1st drive 3 and out and punt. CAR- 1st 2 drives FGs. Deuce fumbles. CAR adds TD. 13 points scored. DAL- Berker kicks off out of bounds. Dallas 1st drive no points. 10 1st quarter. TB- 1st drive TD. 7 for the quarter. ATL-1st drive punt. Zero points 1st quarter. CAR- 1st drive FG. 3 for the quarter. As you can see, before the bye and early in the season, the D was doing a wonderful job in the 1st quarter while our offense was doing poo game after game after game after game. I didn\'t even include 1st quarter TOs unless they occured on the first drive. They went through a stretch of real bad games, then got better again. Offense still doing poo. In the games where special teams bailed the O out in the first quarter late in the season, they played very well again. Now who let who down again?

02-23-2005, 12:18 PM	#43
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Just to clarify, this means in the first quarter when our offense was doing NOTHING, the defense was giving up 7.3215 points. This is with the offense turning the ball over and going 3 and out. But I guess some want perfection from one unit while another is crapping all over them. And I even kept the fact that some turnovers by the offense or special teams led directly to points or that number would be lower if I had taken that out. Yeah, I see how anyone can feel it\'s all the D\'s fault. :icon_bs:

02-23-2005, 12:36 PM	#44
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Whodi, you keep talking about turnovers in the first game. How many did the defense create in, say, the next 10 games? Just curious. You use that ONE game as some sort of indication that our defense didn\'t suck. I think we all generally agree that they DID SUCK, or do you disagree? I guess what I\'m getting at is are you really trying to make folks think the offense was responsible for the #32 ranking of the defense?

02-23-2005, 12:45 PM	#45
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Thanks for the info. I do believe that our defense would have at least kept us at least close in the majority of the games if our offense could have provided early points and some balance. What i was looking for was some type of comparison on what the other terams managed on their first drive. with all the field goals and bad defending field posistion i\'m not down on the defense at all.

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02-23-2005, 12:57 PM	#46
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Saintsfan do you think that our offense deserved the ranking it got not being able to score practically at alll in the first half? The offense and defense although separate are a team. one does feed off the other. with the offense crapping out in the first half we were lucky to hold other teams to the points we did. Not that our defense had flaws but not 32nd rated flaws. The defense \"performed\" better during the last four games could it be because our offense outscored our opponents 43-26 in the first half of those games?

02-23-2005, 01:18 PM	#47
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Saintsfan do you think that our offense deserved the ranking it got not being able to score practically at alll in the first half? Deserved it\'s ranking? I\'m not sure I understand what you mean, \"deserved\". Team? Yeah, and throw in special teams too, they all determine the outcome, and I agree with this. My thing is that it appears as tho Whodi is attempting to blame the offense for the completely crappy defense, and while the offense can at times put the defense in bad situations, that doesn\'t account for being DEAD LAST. I don\'t think a defense that gives up near record yardage over the course of a season should attempt to blame too much of that on the offense.
	C'mon Man...

02-23-2005, 01:29 PM	#48
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	3 and outs made our defense look bad? well points win games and we didn\'t score any. The coment about deserved was worded badly.We can look at any stat to prove a point but in the end points win games and the offense wasn\'t doing it. The defense was holding the opponents to 7.3 points according to some stats posted earlier. I just feel that what the offense did during the first half of games put our defense in a very bad spot and they still held oppenents to more field goals than touchdowns. If our offense could have produced something i thin kthe defense would have played even better as the game progressed. The defense played better the last 4 games but so did the offense by scoring more in the first half

02-23-2005, 01:49 PM	#49
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Exactly the point I was trying to make lynwood. saintfan, would you say by these numbers our offense DIDN\"T hurt the D? Really? NOONE said the defense wasn\'t bad. But if you have a defense that is 10th in creating turnovers, which we were, there is obviously a bigger story there. I really don\'t know how else to explain it. Offense gets the ball, does nothing. Other team\'s O gets the ball, does nothing, or maybe gets a field goal. Our offense gets the ball back does nothing, or turns it over. Defense has to stop the opposing team again, say they do or say worse case they give up a TD. Now you are down 7 or 10 depending, but your offense has had two shots and failed to even produce a first down, WHICH IS THE NORM. And we weren\'t playing Pittsburgh\'s defense every week, or even a team close. SO offense gets a 3rd try, 2 runs and an incompletion later, it\'s the 2nd quarter and not only have they not SCORED, they may not have a first down. So in your mind, the defense is responsible for not still holdung up after that? Wow. Whodi, you keep talking about turnovers in the first game. How many did the defense create in, say, the next 10 games? Just curious. You use that ONE game as some sort of indication that our defense didn\'t suck. I think we all generally agree that they DID SUCK, or do you disagree? Again, we were 10th in the league. NFL.com, go look it up. I even provided a link earlier in the thread. Before I repeat myself, Makes us top 10 no? In the Seattle game alone, the D had 3 takeaways in the first half. Guess how many points the O got? 7. And the D held Seattle to 14 all game until a turnover by he who shall not be mentioned giving Seattle the ball in the red zone. Offense DEFINITELY let the D down, as the D did give them the ball often, as they are top 10 in takeaways. Seattle, Green Bay, Denver, Minny, Philly, Atlanta, even Pittsburhg(number one D in the league) had less takeaways than our D. ] This is what I said earlier. And followed with this Huh? You lost me on this one Kool. Isn\'t getting the ball back to the offense most of what you were saying? The D did just that better than 22 other teams, AND better than 7 playoff teams and one of them with the number one D in the league and another went to the Superbowl. How can you ask for more of them? Ask any fan in the league if they wanted a D top 10 in takeaways, they would say hell yeah. The D gave our O more opportunities than 22 other teams, that stat eclipses any TOP stat. Our O\'s inability to do ANYTHING with those turnovers was the killer. Imagine you have a company with two main departments, R & D(offense) and client acqusition(defense). Client acquisition is struggling, bad. Their numbers are low industry wide, but they are pretty good at call volume. R & D on the other hand, is more reactionary than proactive. Client acqusition gives them feedback on what potential customers say they want, but R & D is slow at putting these plans into tests and then action. Meanwhile because of the lack of support from R & D, acqusitions numbers stay down. Now if YOU were CEO, basically you would say, Acqusition is terrible, disregard the whole picture, and hire new people for acqusition. Meanwhile you are keeping R&D, and explaining away their culpability. So new folks in CA, same old same old from R&D. How long will it take for the same numbers to come in again? If you\'d like to read back. Please tell me how the offense wasn\'t at least halfway responsible for how poor our D showed. Please.

02-23-2005, 02:38 PM	#50
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	3 and outs made our defense look bad? So then you ARE trying to say the performance of our D is the fault of the O? Or not? I still can\'t tell. You say we ranked 10th and you give me the Seattle game. Ok. How many did we get in the 10 games that followed Seattle. I haven\'t looked, I\'m just curious. You see to be saying our defense gave the offense all the oppurtunity they should have needed, and I simply disagree with that. You say they ranked 10th in turnovers. Ok. I say they ranked 32nd overall.