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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; While I haven't finished my analysis, and I hope you considerate posters will help pose pressing questions that will get to more truth, I've discovered the following: I'm going to focus on LOSSES only, because I'm going to assume that ...

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Old 02-25-2005, 12:57 PM   #1
xan
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

While I haven't finished my analysis, and I hope you considerate posters will help pose pressing questions that will get to more truth, I've discovered the following:

I'm going to focus on LOSSES only, because I'm going to assume that it was a joint effort in wins (on average) and that to get better, one must focus on where things went totally wrong.

In 8 losses,

1st drives had 2TD's, 2 FG's and 1TO
2nd drives had 4TD's, 1FG and 2TO's
Drives 1-5 had 11TD's, 8FG's and 8TO's
Drives 6-10 had 13TD's, 8FG's and 2TO's

Short Field Scoring
6 TD's (3 in 1st 5 drives)
5 FG's (2 in 1st 5 drives)

Offense gave up 2 TD's in 1st 5 drives

When down by 13 or more:
7 TD's
6FG
986yds Total Allowed (30% of all yards Allowed)

What I think this means:
When the game is close, the defense is pretty good. In losses that weren't blowouts, the defense showed up. In losses where the offense doesn't show up, the defense looks even worse.

I'm going to argue that points and yardage given up in the 2nd half when down by 13 or more points are irrelevant for evaluation purposes. There were four games AZ, DEN, SD, and CAR where the slow start and inefficiencies of the offense make this a reasonable assertion. In all four of those games, the offense gave up a score and/or a short field touchdown plus a field goal. That's an average of 16ppg that the offense caused in those 4 games. (not to mention the 4 red zone turnovers in those games)

Against MIN, 3 first half turnovers and 1 short field TD, and still down 7 means that the D was looking pretty good in that one, yardage aside.

So, in 5 losses, the Offense played for the other team, at least statistically, for half the time. Does that qualify to assess the offense 40% of the defensive blame?
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:17 PM   #2
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk



What I think this means:
When the game is close, the defense is pretty good. In losses that weren\'t blowouts, the defense showed up. In losses where the offense doesn\'t show up, the defense looks even worse.



\'\'When the game is close\'\'...that pretty much equals the 1st quarter...

The D was HORRIBLE.....maybe one of the worst ever in the history of the NFL....I could care less about the final four games...It\'s like walking 3/4 of a mile in a race..then sprinitng the final lap..and expecting praise...

Venturi delivers the worst in players..and he always right on time...just enough to end our season..without any real threat of making the play offs...

Not to entirely blame the D...but..most of the blame for certain has to go to them...they were an embarrasment to the Franchise....
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:18 PM   #3
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

By the way..thats a great job of getting those numbers together...I didn\'t mean to come off harsh...
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:18 PM   #4
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

Here\'s a typical 1st half for the Saints\' offense. This was in a game against the Falcons.


Saints offesne first drive:
1-10-NO20 (13:26) D.McAllister up the middle to NO 24 for 4 yards (E.Jasper).

2-6-NO24 (13:01) D.McAllister up the middle to NO 26 for 2 yards (C.Draft; E.Jasper).

3-4-NO26 (12:15) PENALTY on NO-J.Horn, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 26 - No Play.

3-9-NO21 (12:11) (Shotgun) A.Brooks sacked at NO 13 for -8 yards (sack split by D.Williams and E.Jasper).

4-17-NO13 (11:20) M.Berger punts 41 yards to ATL 46, Center-K.Houser. A.Rossum to NO 7 for 47 yards (T.Gardner).
PENALTY on ATL-S.Shabazz, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at NO 47

Saints 2nd drive:
1-10-NO20 (7:36) D.McAllister right end to NO 24 for 4 yards (C.Lavalais).

2-6-NO24 (6:55) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to NO 33 for 9 yards (T.Hall).

1-10-NO33 (6:26) A.Brooks pass to B.Williams to NO 47 for 14 yards (B.Scott).

1-10-NO47 (5:48) PENALTY on NO-V.Riley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 47 - No Play.

1-15-NO42 (5:22) A.Brooks pass incomplete to J.Pathon (D.Hall).

2-15-NO42 (5:17) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to 50 for 8 yards (D.Williams; K.Mathis).

3-7-50 (4:33) (Shotgun)
PENALTY on NO-M.Holland, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.

3-12-NO45 (4:17) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to ATL 47 for 8 yards (D.Hall).

4-4-ATL47 (3:44) M.Berger punts 38 yards to ATL 9, Center-K.Houser, fair catch by A.Rossum.
Atlanta Falcons at 03:35

Anyone starting to get the pitcure? Penalties are KILLING us.

Now here\'s our next drive when we have no penalties:

1-10-NO24 (12:21) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to NO 31 for 7 yards (C.Draft).

2-3-NO31 (11:47) D.McAllister right tackle to NO 32 for 1 yard (K.Brooking).

3-2-NO32 (11:10) D.Stallworth left end pushed ob at ATL 42 for 26 yards (B.Scott).

1-10-ATL42 (10:36) D.McAllister right end pushed ob at ATL 29 for 13 yards (B.Smith).

1-10-ATL29 (10:12) D.McAllister up the middle to ATL 30 for -1 yards (R.Coleman).

2-11-ATL30 (9:36) A.Brooks pass incomplete to A.Stecker (T.Hall).

3-11-ATL30 (9:32) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass incomplete to J.Horn.

4-11-ATL30 (9:26) J .Carney 48 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-T.Bouman.

Here\'s the next possession after scoring the FG:

1-10-NO39 (8:17) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to ATL 35 for 26 yards (D.Hall).

1-10-ATL35 (7:40) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn ran ob at ATL 23 for 12 yards.

1-10-ATL23 (7:16) A.Brooks pass incomplete to E.Conwell (K.Brooking).

2-10-ATL23 (7:11) D.McAllister up the middle to ATL 20 for 3 yards (R.Coleman; E.Jasper).

3-7-ATL20 (6:30) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass incomplete to D.Stallworth (B.Smith).

4-7-ATL20 (6:26) J.Carney 38 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-T.Bouman.

What do you know, we score again when we have NO penalties!!

Here\'s the last possession of the 1st half:

1-10-NO27 (:38) (Shotgun)
PENALTY on NO-J.Nesbit, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 27 - No Play.

1-15-NO22 (:38) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass intended for B.Williams INTERCEPTED by A.Rossum at NO 40. A.Rossum to NO 26 for 14 yards (D.Stallworth).






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Old 02-25-2005, 01:21 PM   #5
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

Wow. That muct have taken some reasearch. Nice work. Unfortunately you are gonna run up against the \"the stats say we were 32nd\" crownd and probably the \"I don\'t care what evidence you have, this is what I saw\" crowd. But I agree with you, and I know more than just myself does as well. The offense did a horrible job of helping the D, and in fact let them down on more than one occasion, as you have also pointed out. The defense did it\'s loyal best by being 10th in the league in takeaways, but it seems not to matter much cause the yardage ranking shows them at 32. Keep up the good work xan. I think 40% is a nice figure, not too harmful in assigning blame to wards the defense\'s failure.

To shadow, I can post AGAIN what our defense did in the 1st quarter while our offense wasn\'t scoring. They gave up about 7.3 points per game in the first. Would you like me to do that? It\'s no problem. Don\'t forget our offense wasn\'t scoring and was also going 3 and out and punting A LOT.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:25 PM   #6
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

And giving up over 7 points on average in the 1st quarter gives them bragging rights?....

Is that what your telling me?

Here\'s some numbers for you..not some situational stats either..just plain and simple facts...

New Orleans Saints Defensive Statistics

Total Yards - 6141.......dead last in the nfl

Yards per game - 383.8......dead last in the nfl

Rushing yards - 2253.....30th overall in the nfl...

Rushing yards per game - 140.8...30th overall in the nfl

Passing yards - 3888 - 28th overall in the nfl

Passing yards per game - 243 - 28th overall in the nfl

Points against - 405 - 28th overall in the nfl

Points per game - 25.3...28th in the nfl

you can\'t sugar coat those kind of results...without a doubt..even including the much acclaimed 4 game streak..they were one of the worst to ever play...had the final 4 went like the first 12..we would have been seated in the hall of shame once again...

The only reason we even won 8 is due to our Offense

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by shadowdrinker]
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:26 PM   #7
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

Can\'t really blame either offense or defense as the reason for a disappointing season - it is a team game!. We have seen teams win 13 games with the second worse defense in the league and we have seen teams win Super Bowls with one of the worst rated offenses in the league.

No question that the offense underachieved and forced the defense onto the field way too often. But the fact remains that the defense was really inept at stopping anything for the first 2/3 of the season. Blame should be equally shared but less excusable to an offense that should have been one of the top in the league. The defense was just about where most prognasticators said they would be.

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by 4DSaints]

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:36 PM   #8
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

Verses Seattle:

New Orleans Saints

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 12:41 11:42 0:59 Punt NO 19 3 3 0 3 0 NO 22 Punt
2 11:09 8:05 3:04 Interception NO 29 5 8 0 8 1 NO 37 Punt
3 6:37 4:10 2:27 Fumble NO 32 6 40 0 40 1 SEA 35 Fumble
4 14:52 12:10 2:42 Kickoff NO 27 4 27 -5 22 1 NO 49 Punt
5 9:18 8:16 1:02 Punt NO 16 3 1 -12 -11 0 NO 5 Punt
6 6:38 2:54 3:44 Kickoff SEA 47 8 52 -5 47 3 *SEA 6 Touchdown
7 0:17 0:00 0:17 Punt NO 16 1 8 0 8 0 NO 16 End of Half
8 15:00 12:59 2:01 Kickoff SEA 47 3 22 -10 12 0 SEA 38 Fumble
9 11:53 9:05 2:48 Punt NO 20 5 35 0 35 2 SEA 45 Punt
10 4:45 3:40 1:05 Punt NO 16 3 3 -5 -2 0 NO 14 Interception
11 3:06 0:27 2:39 Kickoff NO 24 6 32 0 32 2 SEA 44 Punt
12 12:14 9:27 2:47 Punt NO 24 8 57 0 57 2 *SEA 19 Downs 13 4:41 3:53 0:48 Punt NO 24 3 -7 0 -7 0 NO 17 Punt

Verses SF

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 13:57 10:18 3:39 Punt NO 39 7 36 -5 31 2 SF 24 Fumble
2 8:04 6:55 1:09 Kickoff NO 41 3 59 0 59 2 *SF 8 Touchdown
3 5:11 2:48 2:23 Punt NO 26 5 20 40 60 2 *SF 14 Field Goal
4 1:11 14:46 1:25 Punt NO 35 3 9 0 9 0 NO 44 Punt 5 11:46 9:42 2:04 Kickoff NO 37 5 63 0 63 2 SF 37 Touchdown
6 7:36 3:35 4:01 Punt SF 47 9 29 0 29 2 *SF 18 Field Goal
7 0:28 0:00 0:28 Kickoff NO 32 3 4 0 4 0 NO 37 End of Half
8 15:00 11:18 3:42 Kickoff SF 46 7 31 -5 26 1 SF 20 Field Goal
9 6:27 3:10 3:17 Kickoff NO 24 6 2 30 32 2 SF 44 Punt
10 1:09 14:46 1:23 Fumble SF 41 3 -8 0 -8 0 SF 49 Punt 11 7:07 5:14 1:53 Kickoff NO 18 3 -8 -5 -13 0 NO 5 Punt
12 3:42 1:01 2:41 Fumble NO 41 9 59 0 59 4 *SF 16 Touchdown
13 0:04 0:00 0:04 Interception SF 47 1 -1 0 -1 0 SF 47 End of Game

Surprise. We SCORE on the worst tea in the league, and we win.

Against Rams

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 10:55 4:05 Kickoff NO 26 7 40 0 40 2 SL 34 Downs
2 7:58 5:23 2:35 Kickoff NO 35 6 29 0 29 1 SL 36 Downs
3 3:51 14:50 4:01 Fumble NO 17 10 44 5 49 4 SL 34 Field Goal
4 11:08 7:46 3:22 Kickoff NO 20 7 80 0 80 3 SL 42 Touchdown
5 3:38 1:01 2:37 Punt NO 48 6 12 5 17 1 SL 35 Field Goal
6 11:21 5:16 6:05 Punt NO 27 13 51 0 51 3 SL 22 Field Goal
7 13:34 8:23 5:11 Kickoff NO 15 11 80 5 85 5 *SL 9 Touchdown
8 6:38 5:42 0:56 Punt NO 31 3 4 0 4 0 NO 35 Punt
9 3:12 1:48 1:24 Punt NO 42 6 30 -5 25 2 SL 33 Missed FG
10 0:28 0:03 0:25 Kickoff NO 42 4 38 0 38 2 SL 20 Field Goal
11 10:42 7:56 2:46 Punt NO 33 7 54 0 54 4 *SL 13 Field Goal

Look at that. We SCORE again and we win. Here comes the losses.

Verses ARI
# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 8:52 6:08 Kickoff NO 20 11 79 0 79 4 *ARZ 1 Fumble
2 6:49 5:38 1:11 Punt NO 20 3 -1 -5 -6 0 NO 14 Punt
3 4:26 4:16 0:10 Punt NO 49 1 -14 0 -14 0 NO 49 Fumble
4 4:16 14:56 4:20 Kickoff NO 39 8 54 5 59 4 *ARZ 2 Field Goal
5 13:06 11:10 1:56 Punt NO 31 3 8 -5 3 0 NO 34 Punt
6 6:02 3:48 2:14 Fumble NO 1 4 20 0 20 1 NO 21 Punt
7 1:12 0:19 0:53 Kickoff NO 15 4 24 -10 14 1 NO 29 Punt 8 9:54 7:07 2:47 Punt NO 20 5 20 0 20 1 NO 40 Punt 9 1:29 14:54 1:35 Kickoff NO 12 3 13 -10 3 0 NO 15 Punt
10 9:44 8:12 1:32 Kickoff NO 8 3 12 -4 8 0 NO 16 Punt
11 5:02 3:52 1:10 Kickoff NO 20 5 22 -5 17 1 NO 37 Downs 12 1:54 0:00 1:54 Kickoff NO 22 6 28 5 33 2 NO 45 End of Game

You mean a red zone TO and not scoring on 10 of 11 possessions is BAD for the defense? Imagine that. Let\'s move on.

Verses TB:

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 12:45 2:15 Kickoff NO 27 5 13 0 13 1 NO 40 Punt
2 7:05 5:08 1:57 Kickoff NO 27 3 13 -10 3 0 NO 30 Punt
3 0:43 12:02 3:41 Fumble NO 43 6 8 5 13 1 TB 44 Punt
4 8:42 7:18 1:24 Punt TB 40 3 40 0 40 2 *TB 17 Touchdown
5 5:08 4:50 0:18 Kickoff NO 23 1 -1 0 -1 0 NO 23 Fumble
6 4:50 1:01 3:49 Kickoff NO 28 8 33 -20 13 2 NO 41 Punt 7 11:56 10:50 1:06 Kickoff NO 20 3 1 0 1 0 NO 21 Punt
8 7:41 2:46 4:55 Missed FG NO 31 10 71 -2 69 6 *TB 3 Touchdown 9 0:33 11:29 4:04 Punt NO 30 6 37 -10 27 2 TB 43 Interception 10 8:01 3:43 4:18 Punt NO 31 8 40 0 40 2 TB 29 Field Goal

So you mean even when the defense gives you the ball off a fumble and you STILL punt, that is BAD for the D? Wow. You score a TD then fumble the next possession and punt the next two after that? Seems like a winning offense. One more.

Verses Min

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 12:36 11:35 1:01 Interception NO 20 3 7 0 7 0 NO 27 Punt
2 7:53 0:06 7:47 Kickoff NO 23 13 59 10 69 6 *MIN 8 Interception
3 14:03 11:25 2:38 Kickoff NO 21 6 27 0 27 2 NO 48 Punt
4 7:48 6:29 1:19 Fumble MIN 14 3 14 0 14 2 *MIN 2 Touchdown
5 4:47 4:24 0:23 Interception NO 20 3 0 0 0 0 NO 20 Punt
6 1:53 0:21 1:32 Kickoff NO 27 4 73 0 73 4 *MIN 7 Touchdown 7 15:00 13:27 1:33 Kickoff NO 27 3 -3 0 -3 0 NO 24 Punt
8 10:48 6:13 4:35 Kickoff NO 21 9 79 0 79 3 *MIN 1 Touchdown 9 2:26 13:08 4:18 Kickoff NO 19 10 64 -10 54 3 MIN 27 Field Goal
10 7:04 2:51 4:13 Kickoff NO 35 11 65 0 65 5 *MIN 5 Touchdown

So two punts and an INT that led to a TD is NOT how you help your team? Wow. Imagine that.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:42 PM   #9
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

shadow look at thia

SEA- 1st drive punt. 0 points first quarter given up.
SF- 3 and out 1st drive. 3 points first quarter
ST.L- 1st drive TD. 7 points given up 1st quarter
ARI- Brooks fumbles at the 1. D forces punt. 7 points total first quarter
TB- 1st drive field goal. 3 pts 1st quarter.
Minn-1st drive INT. 7 pts. 1st quarter
OAK- 1st drive punt. 6 pts
SD-1st 2 drives TDs. 14 pts.
KC- 1st drive TD. 10 pts.
DEN. 1st 3 drives score. 17 pts then Mike Lewis fumbles and they add a FG. 20 pts scored.
ATL- 1st drive 3 and out and punt. 7 points given up
CAR- 1st 2 drives FGs. Deuce fumbles. CAR adds TD. 13 points scored.
DAL- Berker kicks off out of bounds. Dallas 1st drive no points. 10 1st quarter.
TB- 1st drive TD. 7 for the quarter.
ATL-1st drive punt. Zero points 1st quarter.
CAR- 1st drive FG. 3 for the quarter.

As you can see, before the bye and early in the season, the D was doing a wonderful job in the 1st quarter(except against the AFC West) while our offense was doing poo game after game after game after game. I didn\'t even include 1st quarter TOs unless they occured on the first drive. They went through a stretch of real bad games, then got better again. Offense still doing poo. In the games where special teams bailed the O out in the first quarter late in the season, they played very well again. Now who let who down again?
And tell me out side the AFC West games what more the defense could have done to help the offense. Please tell me. Outside of those 3 terrible games(while the offense still wasn\'t scoring in the first), they gave up an average of 5.6 points in the first. And this is with having to stop the opposing team agin and again cause of the drive charts I posted, you can see we WERE NOT scoring in the first and WE WERE giving the ball to the opposing teams with turnovers giving them extra possessions. But you know what? think what you want. I am so through with this disagreement.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:44 PM   #10
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2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk

shadow look at thia

SEA- 1st drive punt. 0 points first quarter given up.
SF- 3 and out 1st drive. 3 points first quarter
ST.L- 1st drive TD. 7 points given up 1st quarter
ARI- Brooks fumbles at the 1. D forces punt. 7 points total first quarter
TB- 1st drive field goal. 3 pts 1st quarter.
Minn-1st drive INT. 7 pts. 1st quarter
OAK- 1st drive punt. 6 pts
SD-1st 2 drives TDs. 14 pts.
KC- 1st drive TD. 10 pts.
DEN. 1st 3 drives score. 17 pts then Mike Lewis fumbles and they add a FG. 20 pts scored.
ATL- 1st drive 3 and out and punt. 7 points given up
CAR- 1st 2 drives FGs. Deuce fumbles. CAR adds TD. 13 points scored.
DAL- Berker kicks off out of bounds. Dallas 1st drive no points. 10 1st quarter.
TB- 1st drive TD. 7 for the quarter.
ATL-1st drive punt. Zero points 1st quarter.
CAR- 1st drive FG. 3 for the quarter.

As you can see, before the bye and early in the season, the D was doing a wonderful job in the 1st quarter(except against the AFC West) while our offense was doing poo game after game after game after game. I didn\'t even include 1st quarter TOs unless they occured on the first drive. They went through a stretch of real bad games, then got better again. Offense still doing poo. In the games where special teams bailed the O out in the first quarter late in the season, they played very well again. Now who let who down again?
And tell me out side the AFC West games what more the defense could have done to help the offense. Please tell me. Outside of those 3 terrible games(while the offense still wasn\'t scoring in the first), they gave up an average of 5.6 points in the first. And this is with having to stop the opposing team agin and again cause of the drive charts I posted, you can see we WERE NOT scoring in the first and WE WERE giving the ball to the opposing teams with turnovers giving them extra possessions. But you know what? think what you want. I am so through with this disagreement.


simply refer to my above post...

If you came in here to defend the Defense...you lost before it ever began
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