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Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by burningmetal I'm not listening to uninformed media, or fans. I'm going by the numbers. The numbers always say we're brushing up against the cap, and that fact is supported by the fact that we consistently fail to ...

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Old 02-19-2016, 08:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I'm not listening to uninformed media, or fans. I'm going by the numbers. The numbers always say we're brushing up against the cap, and that fact is supported by the fact that we consistently fail to fill huge holes, because there aren't enough funds to make a run at the top players on the market. It's that simple. I know you think you're the smartest person in the room, but if you think we know nothing because we aren't "behind the scenes", then you know nothing either. So maybe you should take your holier than thou mentality and join the media whom you revile so much.

I know all about the fact that the cap number changes from year to year, and ideally they would operate under that premise. But when we're getting out-bid and consequently outperformed, it shows that Loomis is NOT one of the best in the business. He got plain lucky to get Brees coming off a shoulder injury, and then this team got lucky on some low round picks. Those guys carried this team. They are mostly all gone now, and what do you see out on the field?

Your pompous assumption that writers who live from check to check can't balance a check book is just another strike against your credibility. You sound bitter and egotistical. You said writers, but I know you mean all of us (the little people). Well who are you? What are you doing here? If you think you are privy to so much that we somehow aren't, then why do you come here and argue with us? Why aren't you working in the NFL? Did it ever occur to you, that you're here for the same reason as everyone else... to give an opinion? You don't have to agree, pal, but if you are so maddened by it all that you think no one should even be allowed to speak on it then you shouldn't be opining, either.
You just rendered the rest of the diatribe meaningless when you said "The numbers always say we're brushing up against the cap". You clearly didn't get the meaning of the reply.

Oh, and I was a part of that media for ten years. I have also been involved with the ownership and their explanations of financial decision making of a professional franchise. I also have vast experience with cost and management accounting.

Once again, speak all you want, but I simply feel it only fair to point out to others when it is total bull**** being shared.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:12 PM   #32
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Your pompous assumption that writers who live from check to check can't balance a check book is just another strike against your credibility. You sound bitter and egotistical. You said writers, but I know you mean all of us (the little people). Well who are you? What are you doing here? If you think you are privy to so much that we somehow aren't, then why do you come here and argue with us? Why aren't you working in the NFL? Did it ever occur to you, that you're here for the same reason as everyone else... to give an opinion? You don't have to agree, pal, but if you are so maddened by it all that you think no one should even be allowed to speak on it then you shouldn't be opining, either.
As for this comment, I have worked with and know quite a number of sports writers, photographers, cameramen, reporters and commentators and I would venture to bet that approaching 100% of them would agree with me on their bookkeeping abilities. It is an extremely demanding occupation and I respect the hell out of each and every one of the true professionals.

I can safely say that a far greater percentage of the "little people" have more of a well rounded understanding of finance than the average media person, but still has a far lower understanding than that of those with the professional training to deal in the field.

And, by the way, when I worked toward getting my degree in accounting there was the dream of pursuing a career in sports management. A wonderful wife and two awesome sons helped me move in a more sustainable direction.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:40 PM   #33
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
You just rendered the rest of the diatribe meaningless when you said "The numbers always say we're brushing up against the cap". You clearly didn't get the meaning of the reply.

Oh, and I was a part of that media for ten years. I have also been involved with the ownership and their explanations of financial decision making of a professional franchise. I also have vast experience with cost and management accounting.

Once again, speak all you want, but I simply feel it only fair to point out to others when it is total bull**** being shared.
You clearly don't remember what your reply was, if you think I didn't get the point of it. You said he's responsible for making financial decisions (wow, who knew?). And you say that I'm listening to and reading people who are uninformed. My response was not hard to understand. I don't base my conclusions off of an opinion. I see the numbers. The cap numbers are made public. You're pretending that there's something I'm not seeing, but I look up and see a team that can't compete in the free agent market.

So if he's got it all figured out, why is it that this team just scrapes by? I know.... I don't understand what goes on behind the scenes, right? I'm arguing against what is, in my opinion, an inaccurate statement that Loomis has great cap "skills" and is "a genius", by showing that there is nothing going on but pushing back salaries so that we get under the cap each year. And according to you for the last couple of years, it was all going to work out in the long run. Yet here we are again, you and I, arguing about how and when this will work. Because we are watching this team try to get under the cap, but don't look anywhere near in position to do much in free agency.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:59 PM   #34
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You clearly don't remember what your reply was, if you think I didn't get the point of it. You said he's responsible for making financial decisions (wow, who knew?). And you say that I'm listening to and reading people who are uninformed. My response was not hard to understand. I don't base my conclusions off of an opinion. I see the numbers. The cap numbers are made public. You're pretending that there's something I'm not seeing, but I look up and see a team that can't compete in the free agent market.

So if he's got it all figured out, why is it that this team just scrapes by? I know.... I don't understand what goes on behind the scenes, right? I'm arguing against what is, in my opinion, an inaccurate statement that Loomis has great cap "skills" and is "a genius", by showing that there is nothing going on but pushing back salaries so that we get under the cap each year. And according to you for the last couple of years, it was all going to work out in the long run. Yet here we are again, you and I, arguing about how and when this will work. Because we are watching this team try to get under the cap, but don't look anywhere near in position to do much in free agency.
Yes, same old argument. But, it is not Loomis that is at fault. He is the "genius" that makes Payton's moves possible.

Hopefully, we can both agree, that free agency is not the answer be it long term or short. We need to draft more effectively. and once again, that is not on Loomis.

Back to the cap, with the $13M increase in next year's cap and contract manipulations worked into contracts by Loomis, the Saints will have plenty of space available to make major moves. But, if those moves orchestrated by others come up empty again, Loomis tends to get all the blame.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:08 PM   #35
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
As for this comment, I have worked with and know quite a number of sports writers, photographers, cameramen, reporters and commentators and I would venture to bet that approaching 100% of them would agree with me on their bookkeeping abilities. It is an extremely demanding occupation and I respect the hell out of each and every one of the true professionals.

I can safely say that a far greater percentage of the "little people" have more of a well rounded understanding of finance than the average media person, but still has a far lower understanding than that of those with the professional training to deal in the field.

And, by the way, when I worked toward getting my degree in accounting there was the dream of pursuing a career in sports management. A wonderful wife and two awesome sons helped me move in a more sustainable direction.
You would venture to bet, huh? Did you ask them that, or are you just assuming still? Because if so, you're opinion is unreliable.

By the way, don't think I didn't notice your attempt to backtrack on your comment about balancing a checkbook. Telling me bookkeeping is a demanding job and that you respect the professionals.... You clearly said that they most likely have no idea how to balance a checkbook... You didn't say anything about bookkeeping for an entire business. It isn't very hard to keep track of your own records. But that was the implication of your post, that these people couldn't do it. That's your tactics.

I will say it YET AGAIN. It doesn't take a degree to see a mistake. I don't have to know the fineprint in a contract, when I see a guy who's making far more money then he should have been offered, and the team is paying the price for it. Let me explain to you how your argument really looks from the outside...

"That guy just shot that person for no reason".

"You don't know that it was for no reason. You don't know what happened between those two to lead to this".

"Ok... it doesn't really matter. He just shot him. That's murder either way".

"I've been shot at before, and this isn't murder".

"What? Yes, yes it is. It definitely is. How does the fact that you got shot give you the right to say what is or isn't murder, but I somehow don't know, even though I just saw it happen?"

"Nope. You don't know what you're talking about".

That's terrific that you have a wife and two sons. I have an awesome daughter, and had a wife. Most people in the NFL have families as well. That does not change my point. You're not in the NFL, so you know nothing more than us. But you want us to believe you do because you worked in the media. Yet we aren't supposed to listen to any media. Even though I'm not basing my opinion off of the media.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:28 PM   #36
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Yes, same old argument. But, it is not Loomis that is at fault. He is the "genius" that makes Payton's moves possible.

Hopefully, we can both agree, that free agency is not the answer be it long term or short. We need to draft more effectively. and once again, that is not on Loomis.

Back to the cap, with the $13M increase in next year's cap and contract manipulations worked into contracts by Loomis, the Saints will have plenty of space available to make major moves. But, if those moves orchestrated by others come up empty again, Loomis tends to get all the blame.
You're telling me that he's the "genius" that makes Payton's moves possible, yet the moves are not making sense. That is my whole point. I'm not a fan of the personnel or financial decisions. I've been clear about both for a few years now.

You want me to praise him, but everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. I don't believe for one second that he just signs off on whatever others tell him to do. If so, then he truly is useless. I don't believe that any GM operates with no say, whatsoever, in personnel decisions. But again, that is beside the point. If he's a genius he's got to be able to say "this doesn't make sense". It looks worse when a player sucks on the field, but the fact that you would spend 50 something million on a safety, or 40 million on a slightly above average receiver at the time, in Colston, shows a lack of vision.

It's called prioritizing. It's how other teams like the Patriots, Colts, Packers and Steelers are in the playoffs almost every year. They don't overreact and throw crap tons of money at players in less important positions. They don't let players get very old on them, before they start retooling. The Saints haven't been very good at that in recent years, and Loomis and Payton both deserve blame.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:32 PM   #37
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You would venture to bet, huh? Did you ask them that, or are you just assuming still? Because if so, you're opinion is unreliable.

By the way, don't think I didn't notice your attempt to backtrack on your comment about balancing a checkbook. Telling me bookkeeping is a demanding job and that you respect the professionals.... You clearly said that they most likely have no idea how to balance a checkbook... You didn't see anything about bookkeeping for an entire business. It isn't very hard to keep track of your own records. But that was the implication of your post, that these people couldn't do it. That's your tactics.

I will say it YET AGAIN. It doesn't take a degree to see a mistake. I don't have to know the fineprint in a contract, when I see a guy who's making far more money then he should have been offered, and the team is paying the price for it. Let me explain to you how your argument really looks from the outside...

"That guy just shot that person for no reason".

"You don't know that it was for no reason. You don't know what happened between those two to lead to this".

"Ok... it doesn't really matter. He just shot him. That's murder either way".

"I've been shot at before, and this isn't murder".

"What? Yes, yes it is. It definitely is. How does the fact that you got shot give you the right to say what is or isn't murder, but I somehow don't know, even though I just saw it happen?"

"Nope. You don't know what you're talking about".

That's terrific that you have a wife and two sons. I have an awesome daughter, and had a wife. Most people in the NFL have families as well. That does not change my point. You're not in the NFL, so you know nothing more than us. But you want us to believe you do because you worked in the media. Yet we aren't supposed to listen to any media. Even though I'm not basing my opinion off of the media.
No asking necessary, friend. The lack of financial acumen is a common part of discussion in the media field. Bragging upon who has married into the ability to handle the personal finances is a running joke. That said, reread that paragraph you wrote. It was very difficult to understand what you were trying to relay, but, yes, I very much respect the media professionals in their work ethic. It is extremely demanding. But, one of the main reasons I left the business was one of the things most have a problem handling. Get a story or picture out there regardless of impact as long as it means no lawsuit.

Oh, now this is REALLY going to piss you off. I have been shot and still have a massive scar and lead in the leg.

So Loomis supposedly overpaid for a player or two or three that he was instructed to sign with most likely not having final say on final amount. So he gets the blame because he made it possible on the books.

Yup. He sucks.

You are *****ing in a vacuum. Every team in the NFL have had countless bad deals. Many have made better personnel moves, although getting Brees was history making. And many have made FAR more horrendous moves (see Cleveland).
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:37 PM   #38
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
You're telling me that he's the "genius" that makes Payton's moves possible, yet the moves are not making sense. That is my whole point. I'm not a fan of the personnel or financial decisions. I've been clear about both for a few years now.

You want me to praise him, but everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. I don't believe for one second that he just signs off on whatever others tell him to do. If so, then he truly is useless. I don't believe that any GM operates with no say, whatsoever, in personnel decisions. But again, that is beside the point. If he's a genius he's got to be able to say "this doesn't make sense". It looks worse when a player sucks on the field, but the fact that you would spend 50 something million on a safety, or 40 million on a slightly above average receiver at the time, in Colston, shows a lack of vision.

It's called prioritizing. It's how other teams like the Patriots, Colts, Packers and Steelers are in the playoffs almost every year. They don't overreact and throw crap tons of money at players in less important positions. They don't let players get very old on them, before they start retooling. The Saints haven't been very good at that in recent years, and Loomis and Payton both deserve blame.
We are getting closer here. Payton deserves the majority of blame, but Loomis should have reigned him in in an ideal world. That may be on Benson. As I have said before, we don't know what is going on behind the scene. Let's both hope the moves in the personnel department makes this all past history. Ireland appears to have had an impact on our best draft in years. At least I hope so. It could have been blind assed luck. LOL.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:51 PM   #39
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
No asking necessary, friend. The lack of financial acumen is a common part of discussion in the media field. Bragging upon who has married into the ability to handle the personal finances is a running joke. That said, reread that paragraph you wrote. It was very difficult to understand what you were trying to relay, but, yes, I very much respect the media professionals in their work ethic. It is extremely demanding. But, one of the main reasons I left the business was one of the things most have a problem handling. Get a story or picture out there regardless of impact as long as it means no lawsuit.

Oh, now this is REALLY going to piss you off. I have been shot and still have a massive scar and lead in the leg.

So Loomis supposedly overpaid for a player or two or three that he was instructed to sign with most likely not having final say on final amount. So he gets the blame because he made it possible on the books.

Yup. He sucks.

You are *****ing in a vacuum. Every team in the NFL have had countless bad deals. Many have made better personnel moves, although getting Brees was history making. And many have made FAR more horrendous moves (see Cleveland).
The analogy, and the point it represents, still stands. Even if you got shot. That doesn't anger me.

You're still defending him by saying he "most likely had no final say". You can't get on me for what I don't know, and turn around and tell me what you don't know. I find it impossible to believe that he does not have final say on financial terms, when that is his job. And if he doesn't, and he's just there to do Payton's bidding, then what exactly do we know about Loomis? If I am to believe he's not to blame, because it's not up to him, then how do I give him credit when something goes right?

And it's more than just a couple of players. I only mentioned a couple. Loomis was here before the Payton regime, as you know. I don't remember hearing any of this genius talk then. I can still remember him doing a radio show after a blowout loss to the colts, and instructing the host not to take any calls. So he's also a bit of a coward, but I don't want to get too far off track.

I agree that there have been worse teams with worse moves. I didn't compare us to Cleveland.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 02-20-2016, 03:05 AM   #40
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Re: Saints convert Cam Jordan's roster bonus into signing bonus. Creating $4.8 million in cap space.

I don't follow basketball at all, but from those if you in the know I'd like to hear how Loomis has handled the Pelicans' finances?

I mean, if we would assume Payton has been pushing the personnel decisions with the Saints... then the absence of SP should show Loomis operating differently in the NBA.
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