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Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by burningmetal Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone. ...

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Old 03-26-2016, 09:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Yes. GRAHAM drew the coverage away from Hill. And Hill had, I believe, 7 total catches that year. How is that tearing it up? Anyone could have had those 5 touchdowns, when he was left alone.
15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:29 AM   #42
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Re: Josh Hill

Originally Posted by |Mitch| View Post
15 TD's between the 2 TE's and now we have a more athletic and faster Graham in Fleener, whose been playing football and TE a lot longer.

But just go ahead and keep hating the re-signing, even though it actually saves us cap space and offers pretty good depth and an excellent special teams player....
That's like saying between me and Drew Brees, we have 420 something TD passes. It doesn't really count when one guy is doing all the work. Again, Hill only had about 7 catches that year. What did he do after that?

I didn't say anything about hating the re-signing, though I don't know why the team thinks they need him. I was more baffled by your comment that Hill and Graham tore it up together. That's just not accurate.

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:22 AM   #43
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Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

I believe Hill is wanted more for his run blocking and ST. I think we have come to the conclusion that all our TE's have to be used as pass catching,play making specialist. Sean has never let us down year after year with our offense, so if he wants him here, then good. I'm sure Hill is doing something worth staying here.
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:12 PM   #44
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Re: Josh Hill

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post

And Fleener is not a faster version of Graham. Fleener runs a 4.5 something, and Graham ran in the 4.4's. Now with injuries Graham has slowed down, but if you're comparing these two in their prime, there isn't a legitimate comparison. But never mind the 40 times... Fleener has never put up more than decent stats. And I was critical of Graham's disappearing act in big games, but he's definitely a far better receiving threat than any of the TE's we have now.
It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:49 PM   #45
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Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

I'm not sure it was a real cost-efficient move, but in the event Fleener gets banged up or needs rest, we don't want to get to caught without a receiving threat at tight-end (Hooman's pretty much a blocking specialist).
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Old 03-29-2016, 11:59 AM   #46
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Re: Josh Hill

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint View Post
It's the other way around. Fleener ran in the 4.4's, Graham ran in the 4.5's.

I guess everyone has their own definition for "decent stats" but just taking a quick look at TE stats for 2014....

Fleener led TE's in Yards per catch
1. Fleener - 15.2
2. Walker - 14.3
3. Gronkowski - 13.7
4. Paul - 13.0
11. Graham - 10.5

Fleener was 2nd in TD/Catch
1. Antonio Gates - 17.39%
2. Fleener - 15.69%
3. Gronkowski - 14.63%
4. Graham - 11.76%

2nd in 20yds+ Rec
1. Gronkowski - 19
2. Fleener - 16
3. Kelce - 15
4. Walker - 13
11. Graham - 8

5th in YAC/Rec
1. Kelce - 7.01
2. Paul - 6.49
3. Gronkowski - 5.79
4. Walker - 5.63
5. Fleener - 5.59
15. Graham - 3.24

(source: ESPN Stats, Receiving, 2014)

Edit: Fleener also ranked 6th on PFF's pass blocking efficiency ratings. Some of the guys above him on the ranking aren't generally thought of as pass catching TEs. None of the guys ranked higher in Pass Blocking Efficiency, finished in the top 15 in receptions.
I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless.

As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations.
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If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:56 PM   #47
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Re: Josh Hill

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I don't believe I have it backwards with the 40 times. I remember reading somewhere, after we selected him, that Jimmy ran somewhere in the 4.4's. If that information was incorrect, nevertheless, I can't find anything that has Fleener in the 4.4's. Watching Fleener in games, he looks nothing close to that, frankly. And as far as yards per catch, I couldn't care less. Devery Henderson used to excel in that category. I'm more interested in the volume of catches, and the ability to make tough catches in crucial situations. And using the TD per catch stat, you would have Josh Hill probably at number one a couple of years ago. That stat is meaningless.

As I've said, Fleener is a decent player. I'm not totally dumping all over his ability. I think he brings certain things to the table. But he's no Jimmy Graham, and Graham himself was not the most reliable in critical situations.
Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:35 AM   #48
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Re: Josh Hill

Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
Info such as 40 times are really not that hard to find. Fleener was invited to the combine (2012) but didn't run due to an ankle injury. He had a 4.51s 40 at his pro day thou. Graham also was invited to the combine (2010) where he ran a 4.56s 40.
I'm aware of how to find it. I distinctly remember, however, reading something about Jimmy running in the 4.4's. When you type in "40 time" for any player you tend to only get the combine number. There are always conflicting numbers given from different time mechanisms that are used. But as I said to the other poster, there is nothing about Fleener running in the 4.4's. More importantly, Jimmy had "football speed". Fleener doesn't appear to move THAT well in pads, to me. And my whole point is in response to someone who said we're getting a faster version of Graham.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:07 AM   #49
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Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

Hill has no trade clause.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:16 AM   #50
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Re: Saints match Chicago Bears’ offer, retain tight end Josh Hill

Originally Posted by brees84 View Post
Hill has no trade clause.
what?
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