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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Here\'s one: How many Super Bowls has Joe won? How many has Jerry won?...

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Old 03-14-2005, 02:28 AM   #11
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Joe Horn 2

Here\'s one: How many Super Bowls has Joe won? How many has Jerry won?
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:38 AM   #12
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C\'mon JKool. Jerry rice made SuperBowls because he had more stars on his team. The Saints have never had a playmaker like Montana. You can\'t compare the fact that JH has never been to a Superbowl, because JH has never played for a team that is near as good as Montana and Co with a D to match.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:40 AM   #13
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joe horn is the best wo we have ever had he is also currently our best wo
WHile I believe Wes Chandler was the best the Saints ever had I do not believe it is that much of a difference. The point is not that he hsn\'t produced -- he has -- its not that he doesn\'t have a few good years left in him -- he does -- the point is how much to pay him. Do we pay him like a Terrell Owens, a Randy Moss - a top 5 receiver. Is he worth a guaranteed signing bonus in large proportions. Since I think he probably only has about 1 more great year and 2 good ones left in him I wouldn\'t feel comfoprtable paying him like a top 5 reciever. Now if Horn was willing to play for a decent salary with a lot of loaded incentives go for it.

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Old 03-14-2005, 09:17 AM   #14
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Exactly 4saints. Exactly.

Kool, I can see by this statement
Here\'s one: How many Super Bowls has Joe won? How many has Jerry won?
you are learning grasshopper.

I think it comes down to people blurring the line of GREATEST THE SAINTS HAVE EVER HAD and GREATEST THE NFL HAS EVER HAD. There is a huge gap. How many saints in the NFL hall of fame? When talking about compariing Joe to a Randy Moss or a Marvin Harrison, you are talking about two guys with the most probability of going to the NFL HALL OF FAME than any other receivers currently playing. Sorry, Joe ain\'t on that list. And it\'s unlikely he will have his name added in the next few years. I mean there are discussions AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had. AB!!!! Should we pay him like Peyton Manning cause of the fact he may be the best OUR TEAM has ever had? Hell no, same with Joe. Just cause he breaks records for us(how many playoff games, NFC Champ game appearances, Superbowls do we have as a team in our 38 year history?) doesn\'t mean he should be paid like an NFL elite.
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Old 03-14-2005, 09:38 AM   #15
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Whodi, I knew you\'d like that one buddy. Of course, I don\'t agree with myself, but I thought I\'d get that in there.

You can compare Jerry and Joe. In fact, Joe compares very favorably on some dimensions, but on other dimensions he does not. Jerry is not just hype - he\'s played 20 seasons (or something like that), and was GREAT for like 15 of them. Joe is good, but he isn\'t in contention for \"greatest receiver to ever play the game.\"

I\'m in favor of keeping Joe for another 2-3 seasons. This whole \"guys slow down fast at his age\" doesn\'t impress me. We all know that speed is nice, but in football savvy can make a big difference. Joe isn\'t as fast as Donte, Talman, Lewis, etc, but he is open more often (despite drawing better coverage). Remember Eric Martin? How fast was he?

It seems to me that Joe can be a first rate player for a few more years. If we\'re not going to pay Joe, who is going to replace him? Certainly not one of the guys on the roster now, given their performance last year. I thought Coles might be an option, but he is gone.

I\'m not opposed to trading Joe, trying to get him a middle priced contract, giving him a back loaded contract (he won\'t play the last few years of that contract anyway); football is still a business at the bottom. However, I just don\'t see that we have a lot of options, and I think Joe is a good WR.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 03-14-2005, 09:47 AM   #16
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The convo wasn\'t a matter of options though, the convo was people saying we should pay him like a top 5 receiver simply based on the fact he is the best the SAINTS have ever had and pointing to his stats. I don\'t think we should trade him either, unless we had the chance to get a Coles, Ward, Walker, Andre Johnson or a Mike Williams in the draft. It\'s not like we will be in the Superbowl next year anyway, and Joe\'s numbers haven\'t taken us to the playoffs in the last 4 years. But he ain\'t no spring chicken any longer. He was on the injury report damn near every game last year, though he played through it. But he also knew contract negotiations were coming up. What\'s to say if he gets that contract, the injuries he played through last year keeps him on the sideline so he can insure he still gets his money in the future?

So any option where we get to keep him without giving him a top 5 contract is fine with me. But Joe has said he wants a top 5 contract, and therein lies the problem. Maybe Minnesota will look his way for the #7 pick and we can get Mike Williams. I doubt it though. But if we pay Joe top 5 money, we will regret it. I see more this team stretching Joe out and having him play his last year of his contract and then deciding. Make him prove it one more time. Hell, he will make 4.7 mil this year. I can name plenty better receivers who will make less than that.
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:22 AM   #17
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Agreed.
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:26 AM   #18
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I\'m in favor of keeping Joe for another 2-3 seasons. This whole \"guys slow down fast at his age\" doesn\'t impress me. We all know that speed is nice, but in football savvy can make a big difference. Joe isn\'t as fast as Donte, Talman, Lewis, etc, but he is open more often (despite drawing better coverage). Remember Eric Martin? How fast was he?

It seems to me that Joe can be a first rate player for a few more years. If we\'re not going to pay Joe, who is going to replace him?
I think the key is keep him for 2-3 more years -- I am all in favor of that and I would pay him a good rate -- load it with incentives -- but do not fall into the trap of a large guaranteed bonus -- that I copuld not accept.
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Old 03-14-2005, 01:00 PM   #19
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They should put a clause in horn\'s contract that makes him donate money to help people with high blood pressure after every false start he gets.
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Old 03-14-2005, 01:31 PM   #20
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The argument against Horn here seems to me to be lacking in one key area. Rather than complicate things by using real players (or players at all), I\'ll illustrate it another way.

The argument, so far as I can tell, is why spend money on a Starbucks coffee when you can go to 7-11 and get a coffee and doughnuts for the same price? I mean, coffee is coffee and Starbucks coffee ain\'t that much better than any other coffee. Besides, it\'s the afternoon. That coffees been sitting out. I\'d rather get some fresh brewed gas station coffee on the cheap than some old expensive coffee.

If that were where the argument stopped then I might agree. But it isn\'t. You see, in this scenario, the assumption is that by bypassing the Starbucks coffee, the Saints will get the most out of their money by buying multiple valuable other commodities (coffee, a Hubigs pie, and maybe a lotto ticket) at 7-11. My problem with that assumption is that the Saints never seem to go to 7-11. Instead, they hang out on the corner watching other people go into 7-11 and buy Hubigs pies and in the end, they end up spending more than the cost of the Starbucks for a cup full of piss that the bum in the gutter sold them, and a mushy pile of dog crap that someone convinced them was really a sandwich.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


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he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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