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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Not knocking what you said Kool, I am knocking this team for being in this position, cause it\'s true. And since it is true, we are screwed. Look at it this way, we aren\'t gonna draft a WR in this ...

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Old 03-17-2005, 09:32 PM   #11
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

Not knocking what you said Kool, I am knocking this team for being in this position, cause it\'s true. And since it is true, we are screwed.

Look at it this way, we aren\'t gonna draft a WR in this year\'s draft. we aren\'t gonna draft one in next year\'s prob(and there def won\'t be a Mike Williams). So what happens if Joe retires? We are screwed. What happens if those nagging injuries Joe has EVERY game keeps him out once he gets paid? We are screwed. Joe reminds me of Cuba Gooding in Jerry McGuire. Did everything in his damn power to show he was worth a big deal, which he has. I can\'t knock him on that. But with him making comments about holding out, I can see Joe getting a new contract and those nagging injuries he played through to get the contract keeps him sidelined a week here, two weeks there, so he can get paid every cent for every year he signed for.

All in all, I guess I am not afraid to be without a certain player. I don\'t feel anyone on this team is indispensible no matter who is or isn\'t available. I am not the type to like feeling like I am backed into a corner, and this team has fans backed into a corner on several players. Kinda like we better be happy with what they have cause noone better is out there. I don\'t like that at all and I don\'t feel it should be a factor in pressuring anyone to give into any player\'s demands.

That being said, 3-4 mil is not bad, EXCEPT Joe has said he wants top 5 money, and he is willing to hold out. Kinda like McCardell did in Tampa last year. They had noone beter, drafted Michael Clayton and he was almost rookie of the year. As a matter of fact, his numbers weren\'t too far from Joe\'s, as a rookie. So NOONE on this team can scare me with the noone is better out there mantra. Not Joe, not AB, noone. Hell, what\'s the worse that could happen, we won\'t make the playoffs? We get to draft Matt Leinart? What? They can go blackmail someone else with that bunk.
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:53 PM   #12
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

i agree Fred and Boo both worked hard for their contracts, but why stop now that they got the money. And i agree we will have a heck of a secondary. And just think how awsome it would be if Fred plays up to par. And for Joe Horn i think why not pay him more, he lead the nfl most of the year, Been to pro bowl 4 of the last 5 yrs, and is the best WR NO has ever had. We cant rely on butter hands stallworth yet. We want great players but dont want to pay them.
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Old 03-17-2005, 10:08 PM   #13
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

Hell, what\'s the worse that could happen, we won\'t make the playoffs?
That\'s funny. Think some beer went down the wrong pipe.

I completely understand your concerns. Your points are valid. The difference between you and others is, you\'re not diminishing what Horn has done for this team. But you are concerned about the TEAM first and foremost, and I can\'t blame you.
I like Horn, I haven\'t always, but he\'s grown on me. I\'ve watched him make plays that put him on a level higher than most of his peers. And I hate watching special players leave and go somewhere else.

Here are the current salaries of some of the top receivers in the league.

Randy Moss
2005 $2.75 million
2006 $8.25 million
2007 $9.75 million
2008 $11.25 million

Terrell Owens
2005 $3.25 million
2006 $.77 million
2007 $5.5 million
2008 $6.5 million
2009 $7.5 million
2010 $8.5 million

Marvin Harrison
2005 $1 million
2006 $2 million
2007 $4 million
2008 $7.6 million
2009 $9 million
2010 $10 million
2011 $11.4 million

Torry Holt
2005 $.54 million
2006 $3.85 million
2007 $4.15 million
2008 $5.65 million
2009 $6.65 million

Chad Johnson
2005 $1 million
2006 $2.75 million
2007 $3 million
2008 $3.4 million
2009 $3.6 million

These numbers do not take into account signing bonus or incentives. Even then, would it be that bad? I feel we do owe Horn at least something close. Over the past 5 years, we\'ve only paid Joe a little over $4 million. That\'s bang for the buck. It would make sense for the Saints to restructure now, since he\'s due to make $3.8 million in this year alone. I\'m not saying break the bank, four year contract, maybe? Something around Holt\'s numbers. I hate the back ended contract.

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Old 03-17-2005, 11:18 PM   #14
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

I\'d like to see half of every contract be based on performance. That way a team isn\'t stuck with a loafer and the player is incented to bust-ass in order to get full value for the contract.

But that will never happen in the No Fun League. The players union will never allow players to have a majority of their salaries based on performance. The original Ricky Williams contract was so unsatisfying that it will never be repeated.

Why are professional athletes exempt from the normal economic realities that the rest of us are? What if a team esentially made it a policy that everyone has meaningful incentives that protected it from the loutish Sullivans of the world or from the regressions that Thomas, B. Williams and T-Sucky.

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Old 03-18-2005, 09:06 AM   #15
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

Should receivers get paid by thier stats?
You mean, should we evaluate a player based on the results they have actually produced on the field? Are you nuts? Who cares about results - it\'s all about talent!!! That\'s why the most talented team in the NFC South hasn\'t won the division in the last 3 years, but every other team has won once.... (actually, two have made the Super Bowl and one made the NFC Championship).

Nah - we should find the best athletes and give them lots of money (cough tebucky cough sully). Good plan!
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:15 AM   #16
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

You mean, should we evaluate a player based on the results they have actually produced on the field?
Hey folks ... WhoDat says Joe Horn is a top 5 receiver based on stats. But he doesn\'t think the samething about these guys:

Hines Ward:
2001 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 16 94 1003
2002 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 16 112 1329
2003 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 16 95 1163
2004 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 16 80 1004

Derick Mason:
2001 Tennessee Titans 15 15 73 1128
2002 Tennessee Titans 14 14 79 1012
2003 Tennessee Titans 16 16 95 1303
2004 Tennessee Titans 16 16 96 1168

Tory Holt:
2000 STL 16 15 82 1635
2001 STL 16 15 81 1363
2002 STL 16 12 91 1302
2003 STL 16 15 117 1696
2004 STL 16 16 94 1372

Amani Toomer:
1999 New York Giants 16 16 79 1183
2000 New York Giants 16 14 78 1094
2001 New York Giants 16 14 72 1054
2002 New York Giants 16 16 82 1343
2003 New York Giants 16 16 63 1057

Issac Bruce:
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 16 77 1165
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 16 87 1471
2001 St. Louis Rams 16 16 64 1106
2002 St. Louis Rams 16 16 79 1075
2003 St. Louis Rams 15 15 69 981
2004 St. Louis Rams 16 16 89 1292

Rod Smith
1998 Denver Broncos 16 16 86 1222
1999 Denver Broncos 15 15 79 1020
2000 Denver Broncos 16 16 100 1602
2001 Denver Broncos 15 14 113 1343
2002 Denver Broncos 16 16 89 1027
2003 Denver Broncos 15 15 74 845
2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 79 1144

How can WhoDat not say all those guys are top 5 too. Based on stats, right? Can\'t I make the same arguement for all those guys WhoDat?

What side of you mouth are you speaking from this time?
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:28 AM   #17
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

That\'s funny. Think some beer went down the wrong pipe.

I completely understand your concerns. Your points are valid. The difference between you and others is, you\'re not diminishing what Horn has done for this team. But you are concerned about the TEAM first and foremost, and I can\'t blame you.
I like Horn, I haven\'t always, but he\'s grown on me. I\'ve watched him make plays that put him on a level higher than most of his peers. And I hate watching special players leave and go somewhere else.

Here are the current salaries of some of the top receivers in the league.

Randy Moss
2005 $2.75 million
2006 $8.25 million
2007 $9.75 million
2008 $11.25 million

Terrell Owens
2005 $3.25 million
2006 $.77 million
2007 $5.5 million
2008 $6.5 million
2009 $7.5 million
2010 $8.5 million

Marvin Harrison
2005 $1 million
2006 $2 million
2007 $4 million
2008 $7.6 million
2009 $9 million
2010 $10 million
2011 $11.4 million

Torry Holt
2005 $.54 million
2006 $3.85 million
2007 $4.15 million
2008 $5.65 million
2009 $6.65 million

Chad Johnson
2005 $1 million
2006 $2.75 million
2007 $3 million
2008 $3.4 million
2009 $3.6 million

These numbers do not take into account signing bonus or incentives. Even then, would it be that bad? I feel we do owe Horn at least something close. Over the past 5 years, we\'ve only paid Joe a little over $4 million. That\'s bang for the buck. It would make sense for the Saints to restructure now, since he\'s due to make $3.8 million in this year alone. I\'m not saying break the bank, four year contract, maybe? Something around Holt\'s numbers. I hate the back ended contract.
BNB, I appreciate you can see where I am coming from. Lord knows I have tried to get the point across. I am not opposed at all to Horn getting a \"decent\" contract, but he wants a TOP 5 contract and has threatened to hold out. I just can\'t abide by that. JKool said what if we paid him 3-4 mil a year, I said I would love that. But Joe doesn\'t seem to wanna love that. What if he says no? Do we apply the noone else better theory and then pay him 6-8 mil? Hell no. See ya Joe. Thanks for the hard work.

Now, I am like anyone else as a Saints fan, I wanna see players retire here too. But I have also seen, Rickey, Pat, Sam, Vaughn, Roaf, all have to go play elsewhere at the end of their careers. Joe doesn\'t get any more love from me than those guys got. Those were my favorites. By Joe\'s statements, he does not love this team like I do, he loves Joe. And God bless him for it. He is probably on his final contract. But we may not be the ones who can give him what he wants, so it\'s time to look elsewhere. If Joe was the man he says he is, he would be at the front to say, pay me for my play. If I play top 5, my incentives will pay me top 5. But Joe wants top 5 guaranteed, so sorry Joe. Thanks for all you\'ve done. I wish you much success in the future, but we gotta go in another direction.
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Old 03-18-2005, 10:02 AM   #18
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

Two quick points

Do you think the front office would overpay Joe? I don\'t, so I\'m not that concerned about it. They overpaid Brooks, but he was the darling of the coaches. It\'s most likely wishful thinking, but I believe that a compromise will take place, a cap friendly salary, and Joe is paid well. How will that happen? I don\'t know, I can admit when I\'m not very knowledgable about a subject, and cap strategy is definately something that gives me tired head.

Doesn\'t $6-8 million a year sound more like top 3 money, rather than top 5? I would consider Torry Holt top 5, no question, and look at his salary, and he\'s tied up until 2009.

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Old 03-18-2005, 10:09 AM   #19
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

I consider Holt better than Joe, but that\'s a whole nother discussion. My point wasn\'t the actual salary figure, my point was where do we draw the line when it comes to feelings of noone else better so we gotta do it? 6-8 mil was just doubling what Kool said.

Also, I agree the FO will not overpay Joe, and rightfully so. But when do we know the deal won\'t get done? Before the draft, after, during camp, the pre-season, when? I would prefer we know before the draft so hopefully we can move Joe and get one of the many young studs coming out. But if not, what do we do then? Let him sit like McCardell did for Tampa until he was traded? Then we still don\'t have Joe. Try to trade him in season? We need to know now cause he has no more value than he has right now. But I guess we shall see. I doubt we will know anything before the draft though, and Joe keeps running his mouth.
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Old 03-18-2005, 10:57 AM   #20
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Should receivers get paid by thier stats?

How can WhoDat not say all those guys are top 5 too. Based on stats, right? Can\'t I make the same arguement for all those guys WhoDat?
Sure Billy, YOU could, but then your understanding of statistical information was proven to be pretty poor in the numerous Brooks debates. I thought by now you would have learned, but you never do. You\'re much like Aaron that way.


Since numbers seem to be hard for you, I\'ll lay it out very easily. Here are the stats for all the WRs mentioned in this thread. These are their AVERAGE annual production numbers, ranked by YARDS - which is the way that the NFL officially ranks WRs - for the last FIVE seasons (except C. Johnson, who only has 4 in the NFL).

1. Holt: 93 rec. for 1473.6 yards and 12.75 TDs
2. Harrison: 106.8 rec. for 1408.8 yards and 13 TDs
3. Owens: 89.4 rec. for 1293 yards and 13 TDs
4. Moss: 85 rec. for 1283.2 yards and 12.4 TDs
5. Horn: 87.4 rec. for 1257.8 yards and 9 TDs
6. R. Smith: 91 rec. for 1192.2 yards and 6.8 TDs
7. Bruce: 77.6 rec. for 1185 yards and 6.6 TDs
8. Mason: 81.2 rec. for 1101.2 yards and 6.8 TDs
9. Toomer: 69.2 rec. for 1059 yards and 5 TDs
10. Ward: 85.8 rec. for 1034.2 yards and 6.8 TDs
11. C. Johnson: 70.5 rec. for 1031 yards and 6.25 TDs
12. Coles: 68.4 rec. for 931.2 yards and 4 TDs

Does that make it clear? Horn is 5th by Receptions. 5th by yards. 5th by TDs. Is that enough to qualify him as top 5? Or does he also need to be 5th in the 40 and 5th in a hot dog eating contest?

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