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Joe Speaks
i have been reading what horn just said when on 870 with kenny wilkerson. slamming loomis hard, sounds angry.
2nd hand but here's some exerpts of comments- he said in reference to Loomis "What has he done the last two years really?" He compared Loomis to a mob boss (funny). In most ways you can understand Joe. Two years ago, Horn came to the Saints wanting a new deal. They turned him down stating that they think he hasn't produced enough and he has to become more of a team player. He basically closed his mouth, kept the company line and had a 90 catch season last year. His agent came at Loomis with a figure way lower than expected, and Loomis balked at it. Loomis told Horn's agent that Horn still hasn't produced enough and still isn't the team player they want him to be. Horn told Kenny that in two years, Loomis hasn't produced (gotta love that comment). Horn says he will most definitely holdout, from mini camp to whenever. Joe was crying. I never heard of anyone crying over money before, especially money they haven't seen or had. I still gotta take Horn's side, even though I wouldn't sign him to Muhammad's money because NO one would. He does deserve more than the three million dollars he has now. |
Joe Speaks
LKelley I\'m new to this board but I found out very quick that you are a very wise Saints fan. Wait a minute, can a person be wise if they root for the Saints? That\'s another topic altogether. Anyway, I like your style and for the most part you know what you\'re talking about. But on this Joe deal I think you\'re way off. It seems to me that you\'re a big time Joe fan, one of the last of a dying breed. I to used to love me some Joe Horn. I thought his comments were always funny. When Joe would catch a three yard pass that happened to be a first down I would jump up and signal FIRST DOWN right along with him. I used to howl with laughter and delight when he would catch a TD and do a little dance. Then right about the time that the cell phone came out I started to realize something. I finally saw Joe for what Joe was all about, Joe. All Joe is concerned with is Joe, period.
That\'s why Loomis doesn\'t want to pay him anymore than he really deserves. Don\'t get me wrong, Joe Horn is a great WR. Maybe a top ten WR, maybe top 5. The problem is that Joe thinks he\'s a top 1 WR. Joe thinks that he\'s the best receiver to ever catch a ball. Hell, Joe thinks he the best player to ever play the game. No I\'m sorry, have I been saying \"thinks\"? I\'m sorry, Joe KNOWS he\'s God\'s gift to football. If he was a team player he wouldn\'t have to hold out. If Joe was a leader in the clubhouse he would already have a top 5 contract. But no, Joe isn\'t worried about his teammates. He\'d rather bang their wives. He\'s not worried about being a leader, but hey, what Saint is worried about leadership? All he\'s worried about is stats and money. He seems to forget how the Saints gave him a shot when he was a nobody at best 3rd receiver. He seems to forget the fact that he was VERY happy with his contract when he signed it. He\'s going to hold out because he isn\'t happy with the contract that he agreed to honor by signing the thing. As far as his skills are concerned, he\'s still a great WR. We don\'t have anybody even close to being ready to fill his shoes. But the guy is getting old. What is he like 42 now? He\'s always complaining about some nagging injury so his body is obviously breaking down. But the biggest problem with his game is the fact that he is losing his hands. None of the Saints receivers can catch but we don\'t expect Joe Almighty to drop easy balls. Joe isn\'t the player he used to be and he isn\'t the man he used to be. He\'s gone from a lovable star who is all heart to just another spolied, self obsessed, whining, me first pro athlete. Joe is a cancer to the team and I don\'t care how much skill he has left I say let\'s trade the bum or just cut his sorry azz, damn the cap hit!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: |
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Kelley - Joe said that he didn\'t get a deal two years ago on the radio? You actually heard him say that? I mean, he DID sign a 3 year 13.5 million dollar contract extension... maybe he means top five deal??? |
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I wonder how many pro bowls Randy Moss went to the last 5 years. Maybe Minny has someone on the bench better than Randy so they would be afraid to let him ride. Oh, they don\'t and they did it anyway. :o
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thanks for the props nic. however i can say that i am not a particularly big joe fan. i like him, recognize his talent and contribututions. my soapbox often though for any player is, at what price? as tight as the cap is in the nfl (vs beisbol or roundball) it makes front office mgmt more like fantasy team picking. you have 85 million to spend, would you rather moss at $7mil or joe at $4mil or mike williams at $1mil? i go for the most bang for the buck. not necessarily the cheapest but what you get for the dollar. if i could have any saints at their current contract status to be on a team i would probably take will smith number one. no player is scared. if i was king, after a 4th consecutive .500 year i would have cleaned house. i would rather a team that falls to 4-12 but you are excited about cuz ya know they are going in the right direction than plodding along in mediocrity. if the team was characterized as overachievers and not the most underachieving one in the league maybe trudge on. if the team was progressing slowly forward instead of what i characterize as hot n cold schizophrenic play maybe. beyond the 32-32 reign i know what i see with my eyes. i don\'t see progress overall. last season\'s play until the miracle 4 game job saving run was dreadful regardless of w-l. okay, enough sermon there. i would trade joe, deuce, brooks, or anyone for the right price.
who, no, i did not hear that. 2nd hand as noted. i just found several comments on different boards on his scathing commnets. i assumed it to be true then and the gist of most were all the same. i think that point was that he did feel lowballed, went along with the team, and they are still lowballing him (vs upper end contract money). the most significant comment to me is that he declared he was going to holdout. this has been forseen by some on this board in the the previous weeks. it isnt just as easy as let him ride for another year. as in my comments above, no player is sacred. unfortunately in the hardline business world of the nfl cap, reward is not for allegiance or years of service but what can you do for me next year and how much bang for the buck am i getting. ask troy brown. if the niners couldnt keep jerry rice who are we to think joe has a ride to the saints hall of fame at whatever price he wants? |
Joe Speaks
Damn Kelley, you summed up what I have been saying for weeks now. Noone is sacred in the cap era. Hell I also would trade Deuce if it meant we could get Ronnie Brown. Call me disloyal, call me what you like, but I know Deuce is due a big extension and Brown is a star rookie that will afford us the luxury of having the cap room to sign bigger free agents in the future. I am not for cutting people just not to pay them, I am for replacing players who may cause the TEAM financial problems in the future. The .500 fence we have been riding for the last 4 years makes noone above scrutiny. The only no doubters for staying in my mind are Will Smith, Watson, Grant, and Bentley. After that, if alternatives could be found, I would take a look at it.
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I don\'t know, the whole thing seems to be getting out of hand, if you ask me. Based on everything I am reading here, you can count on getting rid of a player once he has proven he is good enough to earn top pay. Sounds like to me that you are going to be continuously running off the people who reach all-pro status. If this is today\'s game, then you can have it. I knew there was a reason I was losing interest over the years. Who wants to follow a league who has painted itself into a corner of having to let your star players go somewhere else to get paid?
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Joe Speaks
unfortunately saint lb it is all too true and becoming truer by the year as teams learn the intricacies of the cap. you can keep say 5 players at top 5 pay but that is it. you better be damn good at choosing who you want that to go to. the colts with manning and harrison cannot afford to keep edge james no matter how good he is. they will be happy to take a second round pick and go with dominick rhodes (who carried for 1000 yds when james was injured) or a j.j. arrington pick who probably can do close to the same for 1/5th the pay of a james.
it is the parity design. no more decades of dominance like the raiders or cowboys. weren\'t the bucs and raiders in the superbowl yesterday? now they are 5 and 7 (traded) picks in the draft. equally no more saints, falcons, or bengals dredging the bottom of the league absolutely every year with .500 being a dream. every team is not far from the playoffs. one year you are the worst having the first pick for peyton manning, the next you win the division 12-4. or some teams just cruise in the middle 32-32, never so bad as to be despised and never quite good enough for the playoffs. dylan sang the times they are a changin. they already have in the nfl with free agency and the cap about 10 years ago. it is just now though that the effect of that is settling into a longterm course from that. |
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WhoDat I hate to step up to a moderator when I\'m just a young buck on this board but I\'ve got issues with Horn. I\'m not saying the guy isn\'t a good player, all I\'m saying is that he\'s not a team player or a leader and he\'s on the downside of a great career.
Ask any expert what \'s wrong with the Saints and the first thing out of their mouth will be leadership. As a whole, the team has a sense of laziness. It seems like players go down to The Big Easy and start taking it easy while putting forth as little effort as possible and still get paid millions. Maybe it\'s the water down there. Maybe it\'s the whole N.O. lifestyle. Maybe Haz let\'s the monkeys run the zoo. It could be alot of things, but the main thing is a major lack of leadership. Just look at the roster and show me the leaders. Horn is supposed to be a wise old vet but he acts like a rookie. Yes he\'s a pro bowler, but what kind of an example does he set for the rest of the team? Brooks? Please, that guy couldn\'t lead the team in a prayer. Deuce? Quiet warrior. No one on the roster right now is respected enough to step up and be a leader. In the near future Will Smith will be the leader of the D because he is a class act and sets a good example on the field and off. He has skills and he doesn\'t have to remind everybody every few minutes about how he\'s the greatest DE in the league. It\'s funny, usually the second year player should learn how to carry himself from the four time pro bowler. In this case Joe could learn alot from Will Smith. ;) |
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First, I disagree that Horn isn\'t a leader or team player. As BnB brought up in another thread - one of the gutsier games I ever saw from a Saint was the Carolina game two years ago when Horn had two scores including one in which he skied and sold out to go get a bad AB pass and had to be helped off the field. As Whodi mentioned, Horn plays hurt every week. That tells me the guy is placing team over self - possibly hurting his own career for the team. As far as leadership goes, I\'ll get to that more in a second. However, I challenge you to support your statement that Horn isn\'t a leader, and contradict these two statements: 1) Leadership starts on the field with performance. Lead by example. No Saint has performed better than Joe Horn over the last 5 years. 2) Name a Saints player who is more ra-ra. That might not be leadership per se, but it shows his role - which is to bring the attitude, the swagger to the team. Quote:
I won\'t argue that Joe Horn isn\'t a loud mouth. Maybe he could conduct himself in a more professional manner outside of the lines. But you don\'t go to 4 Pro Bowls in 5 years by being unprofessional when the helmet\'s on. Leadership is a team-wide problem, I absolutely agree. But to say that is a reason to Joe Horn seems to be nonsensical. Is Moss a better leader? Owens? Horn isn\'t perfect, but it\'s about what you do on the field. All he does is put up Pro Bowl numbers... every... single... year... (except when he suffers injuries mid-year that limit his playing time :) ). |
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the interview transcript-
(highlight mine) On the Contract Proposals \"The proposal was embarrassing to me and to Ralph. So Ralph [Vitolo] sent them a proposal back that wasn’t even equal to what the top four or five guys in the league make and Mickey [Loomis] said it was still too much. My agent said if I were a free agent, I would get what I want. I’m frustrated with it. All the big guys in the league don’t have these problems with their GM’s. They are taken care of. I’m willing to say, \"Hey, keep the million dollars and let me see what I’m worth [on the open market]. But they aren’t going to do that. I don’t want them to do that. I want to be a Saint and end my career here. Let me go on the market and see what I’m worth. Obviously someone up stairs is telling him [Loomis] I’m not worth it unless he’s the big Don Corleone calling all the shots and smoking a cigar. This is ridiculous. We should be talking about next year and if we’re going to make the Super Bowl not a contract. Mickey should have taken care of this two years ago. My agent told him we’ll be in your face in two years and Mickey said we’d see.\" On possible hold out \"With all do respect to Jim Haslett and Mr. Benson, I won’t be anywhere near Airline drive until my deal is done. Not for mini camp, not for training camp. I was so upset I told my agent to tell them to take the 120,000 dollars out my check because I won’t be at camp. With all due respect I’ve done everything I’ve needed to do. I want to be there but it comes down to getting a deal done. I want to be paid fairly. A lot of fans don’t understand contracts, but the top five receivers\' contracts compared to mine are crazy. We weren’t even asking for that and the Saints still balked. All I’m saying is I want to be Saint for life and still produce. I don’t want to steal from Mr. Benson. If they don’t feel like I can still do that then let me be a free agent and let me show you what other teams think... Joe Horn can still be a Pro Bowl player. It’s still possible that the deal gets done and I’m back working with the guys next week trying to win a Super Bowl and really, that’s what I’d rather be doing.\" On Saints Organization \"I don’t know if Mr. Benson tells them what to pay us. I think he probably tells them to do their jobs. I know what I’m worth and on Sunday I prove it. It’s up to him if he wants to pay me or not. We’re only a million and a half apart. My agent has come down, as far I will. Hopefully we can get this done, but until then I’ll be on high school field running routes and with Tom Shaw lifting weights. Until then the ‘Don’ can sit up in his office calling the shots. I don’t want to stir up [expletive] and piss off the GM but he’s trying to throw it in my face. I’m not going to say any more. I’m going to leave it alone. Two years ago my agent told them that I was going to play until I was 38 if I want to and I was going to produce. If I’m third receiver than pay me like that one but I’ve been to the Pro Bowl four out of five years I should be paid like one. No we didn’t go to the playoffs, and I’m mad about that, but I feel like I gave it my all. I’ve seen this movie before. Here’s the bottom line: I want to be here but they always say let’s see if you’re a Pro Bowl player but that time is now. They could have signed me to a five-year deal two years ago and we wouldn’t be here. They have not lived up to their end. [Edited on 19/3/2005 by LKelley67] |
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WhoDat I see what you\'re trying to say but do you see where I\'m coming from? I KNOW Joe Horn is a great WR. I KNOW Joe horn has been to 4 pro bowls in 5 years. I\'m not talking about his skill. Yes, if you wanna talk about leadiing a team with your play on the field, then Joe is a great leader. But IMO leadership has less to do with what you to on the field and has more to do with how you carry yourself everywhere else.
If you say that leadership comes from on field play, then Randy Moss is a great leader of men. Deion Sanders was the best CB ever, was he a leader in the clubhouse? Did rookies and vets alike look to him as a leader? The answer is no. Leadership doesn\'t come from great on field play. Leadership comes from great people who happen to play sports. A jerk who happens to be a great ball player does not deserve to be a leader. You say \"Joe plays through pain\", \"He\'s got heart\". That\'s great, he\'s getting paid millions of dollars to play football, the least he can do is play when he can. Today\'s NFL is so upside down. We commend players for playing through pain when it should be expected. Players should play through pain. The only time they shouldn\'t play is if they are INJURED and can\'t physically perform. Like John Abraham for the Jets last year! He could have played but he chose not to. We all know what he is, it\'s starts with a p and ends with a y. |
Joe Speaks
the guy had 90 catches and i didnt like him shooting off his mouth before. but last year he kept his mouth shut and just played. 90 catches. he plays hurt. he plays hard every week. he had 90 catches did i say that already. he deserves the money. if the team doesnt want to pay him fine. but who else do you have. and the vikings won without moss last year. not as much with him but they were able to get on without him. more importantly then that they traded him for a real nice number one. they will probally pick up a real good wo. maybe williams or edwards. you know im sure we can get play without horn if we have to but why would you want to.
5 years here is his catch totals. 94,83,88,78,94. that comes out to over 87 catches per season on average. im pretty sure the year he had only 78 he was hurt nearly the entire year. he played but wasnt healthy. why would we want to get rid of that? |
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I see that we\'ve come back to the leadership debate again. As Who points out, there are two kinds of leadership: (1) lead by example, and (2) lead with rhetorec (empassioned, timely, effective verbal communication. It seems that Joe does both of these, at least some of the time. I feel like what bignic is talking about is a third kind of leadership. Usually, we call it Integrity. Comportment on and off the field is a good characteristic - I don\'t usually associate it with leadership, but I see how it can be. It is an interesting point. Joe leads during games, but does he lead \"on and off the field\". I don\'t know. He some times does, some times doesn\'t. I\'m not sure how much \"football value\" integrity has. Certainly not having it hurt guys like Connell. Having it helped guys like Roaf. However, if you\'re in between, like Horn, what should we say about the value of this kind of leadership that I think ought to be called integrity? Interesting question. |
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i dont here anything bad a bout joe. no rapes or drug problems or wife beating or running over cops or being involved with someone who killed someone. he has been pretty stand up for us. i dont think that anyone knows that joe was sleeping with roafs wife. according to joe he wasnt
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your right whodat and once again i havent heard anything bad about joe.
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WhoDat, again I know Joe produces on the field. All I\'m saying is that Joe is a me first player who isn\'t worried about being a leader. I realize that every player isn\'t cut out to be a team leader. If everyone was a leader then who would follow? You can\'t have all chiefs and no indians. Having said that, it\'s essential that teams have at least some strong leaders. Whether those leaders are coaches or players doesn\'t really matter.
When a team doesn\'t have ANY leadership you get what we\'ve got, a talented team that can\'t get over the hump. Joe is a player that could and should be a strong leader. He\'s a truly great player. As you\'ve said many times before he\'s gone to four of the past five pro bowls. He has paid his dues and is an established star in this league. He has all the makings of being a great leader, except for his me first attitude. It comes down to the fact that he lacks class. Instead of handling team issues behind closed doors, he blasts the team in the media. He\'s always saying stupid things in the media. He\'s always showboating on the field and just acts like the biggest hotdog. The guy acts like a rookie! You would think that these guys would grow up and act like the\'ve been there before. I used to love Joe Horn. He used to be one of my favorite players in the league. But something happened to Joe through the years. All that success got to his head. Now Joe thinks he\'s the second coming or something. I haven\'t given up on him though. There is still hope for him yet, he just needs to come back down to earth a little. |
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It\'s been a while since I had had a chance to post. Workload keeping me busy.
As I stated a couple weeks ago, Loomis is not popular amongst players or other staff......I certainly can\'t stand him, but I know him. He\'s a bum. He\'s got no concept on personnel at all. Joe Horn said it right. What has Mickey done? Not a damn thing. All he did was stab Randy in the back to get his job and it has paid off for him. He\'s useless. One of the three worst GM\'s in the NFL by far. Horrible person. No character. This is something that is very personal to me. |
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I really disagree with that... Loomis may or may not be a \'\'nice guy\'\'..but He DOES keep this team under the cap extrememly well..better than most GM\'s ...and we are always able to be active in FA...We have not once been hindered by cap problems since He has been here..and that\'s pretty darn good...Far better than the \'\'Worst 3 in the NFL by far\'\' I can assure you. He has overseen nearly every aspect of the Operations of the Franchise since his employment..and we have managed to stay competitive, and keep top notch talent on the team year in, year out.. I bet He finds a way to get our major 3 guys resigned(Bentley,McAllister,McKensie)..and STILL keep us safe as far as Cap room goes... Whether or not He\'s \'\'nice\'\'is irrelevant...He does a good job...That\'s good enough... I\'m not trying to pick at you CanLoomis...Me and other members had a discussion about this topic no more than a week or two ago..and many felt like Loomis was infact a pretty decent GM. [Edited on 21/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] [Edited on 21/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] |
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as far as cap management, yeah, loomis knows that. that is what his job was before gm. as far as talent evaluation he has never struck me as someone having deep insight or making deft moves. this is the most important aspect to his position imo- equipping the team with the necessary tools to win.
most everyone has had to work for or with azzholes or despised supervisors. when they know their stuff n get the job done ya grit your teeth n bear with it if it yields the desired result. 32-32 begs asking like joe horn did, \"wtf has loomis done?\" personally i am not satisfied with just a \"competitive\" team. i \'d rather a 4-12 bust seeing the team really going all out than endless tweaking of a .500 formula. the mediocrity cannot go on forever though and this should be a turning point season, one way or another, loomis or not. |
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Far be it from me to point this out, but Ray and TO are both better than Joe Horn. ;) So if I had my choice of Ray Lewis and his problems or Joe Horn, or TO and his problems or Joe Horn, sorry Joe. Carry on. :P
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