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Dwelling on the past?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; As a Saints' fan I've been disappointed more years than I care to remember. I started watching the Saints in the early 70's, so we can go way back and talk about it all if you want to. But, I ...

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Old 03-19-2005, 09:04 AM   #1
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Dwelling on the past?

As a Saints' fan I've been disappointed more years than I care to remember. I started watching the Saints in the early 70's, so we can go way back and talk about it all if you want to.

But, I prefer not to dwell on the past as it really has no bearing on the future.

Really, all I'm interested in is the 2005 season. Not 2004 or 2003 or any of the previous years.

It seems to me that some Saints' fans love to dwell on the past more than they should. It seems to me that they are some of the more bitter fans I've ever encountered. Even Boston Redsox fans never bashed their team the way some Saints' fans have.

What's my point?

Well, I'm going to use WhoDat as an example.

WhoDat has said this team has had enough talent to go to the playoffs the past few years. Now, I'm not putting words in his mouth and I'm not disagreeing with him either.

But then WhoDat knocks this team every offseason and says they haven't added enough talent to compete. And he basically tries to convince everyone to expect more of the same.

If WhoDat thinks this team has enough talent to go to the playoff every year, that must mean Haslett and co. have assembled more talent than most teams in the NFL?! Playoff teams are the cream of the crop in the NFL.

Now, I can tell you right now WhoDat will counter this by saying that "coaching" is the problem and not talent.

But facts are facts!!

And the facts are ... WhoDat says this team is severly lacking in talent. Then he says this team has enough talent to be an elite team. And playoff teams are elite teams.

For the record ... I think if you add all the talent up on this team that it equals about a .500 team. Just look at the talent of defense the past few years and it's not hard to see the lack of talent when compared to the rest of the NFL.

And if you think our offense should have carried us to the promised land, then I don't really see that either. We've got Joe Horn, Deuce McAllister, and Aaron Brooks and not much after that on offense.

Still, it's not like we're that far away from being a playoff team.

The secondary is much improved when compared to previous years. Deuce is back healthy. The offensive line should be better.

But, we still need LB. Look, I could go on and on. But, if someone's sole purpose on this board is to dwell on the negatives and point to the past and try to convince folks that we are going to suck, then why follow the Saints and spend so much time on a Saints' message board?



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Old 03-19-2005, 09:51 AM   #2
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Dwelling on the past?

Wow. I wonder what your purpose is with this thread Billy. Hopefully, another Mod will lock this before it gets ugly. I\'ll try to keep it civil and simply expose you for what you are.

WhoDat has said this team has had enough talent to go to the playoffs the past few years. Now, I\'m not putting words in his mouth and I\'m not disagreeing with him either.

But then WhoDat knocks this team every offseason and says they haven\'t added enough talent to compete. And he basically tries to convince everyone to expect more of the same.
Yes, this team has had enough talent to go to the playoffs for the last five years. For the last four, they\'ve needed to upgrade at a few key positions. Everyone on the board knows what they are b/c 3 of the following 4 have been needs every single season: LB, DT, CB, S.

Hey Billy, what were our major needs coming into this offseason?
1. LB
2. OT
3. DT
4. S

How about last year?
1. LB
2. CB
3. DT

Year before?
1. LB
2. DT
3. CB
4. S

Starting to see a trend? I\'m quite sure that you\'re not. You haven\'t seen it in 4 years, despite many people explaining it you in language a four year old could understand.

There are two issues. The first is addressing the right position. The second is getting the right player. You want to point to signings like the Orlando Ruff signing (I\'ll go get a quote if you want), and say that they did address positions of need. But they have never ADEQUATELY addressed them. Orlando Ruff and Levar Fisher or whatever the guy\'s name is aren\'t exactly solving the problem.

If WhoDat thinks this team has enough talent to go to the playoff every year, that must mean Haslett and co. have assembled more talent than most teams in the NFL?! Playoff teams are the cream of the crop in the NFL.
I never said that - but I did say that they have the most talent in the NFC. I think most people on this board and certainly in the media agree with that. I know you think that only Haslett and Brooks are worth keeping, but...

But, we still need LB. Look, I could go on and on. But, if someone\'s sole purpose on this board is to dwell on the negatives and point to the past and try to convince folks that we are going to suck, then why follow the Saints and spend so much time on a Saints\' message board?
The main problem here is simple Billy. You FORGET the past every offseason. You totally discount any problem that the Saints have ever had and talk yourself into a tizzy and usually come out predicting 10-6 or better. In the last 4 years, I\'ve predicted 8-8, 8-8 or 9-7, 9-7, and 10-6. I\'ve never been more than 2 games from their ACTUAL record.

You\'re predicted 12-4, 10-6 or 11-5, and last year you didn\'t even make a prediction b/c you\'d been destroyed the previous two years.



The title of this thread is a thin veil to cover your true intent. This thread is about nothing but attacking my credibility. I would deal with it, but that would just give you more ammunition. I hope another Mod will. But before they do, I\'ll show the other new guys a little something...



Generally guys, you see a LOT of these types of posts from Billy about me every offseason. Here\'s what you see after the season:

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-19-2005, 09:53 AM   #3
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Dwelling on the past?

Although I\'ve said something to this effect before, I want to give WhoDat his just due.

WhoDat and myself often get in some spirited debates on a variety of topics. Neither one of us usually concede too much in our beliefs and a lot of the things we argue about can\'t be proven until enough time has passed to have sufficient evidence.

Well, one of the things WhoDat told me last year is that Haslett was a major problem and because of that he didn\'t have a lot of faith in the 2003 season. I agrued and argued with WhoDat that he was wrong. And this went on for a while.

Now, I must be a man and admit the one that was wrong was ME.

I\'m now seeing things exactly like WhoDat saw them last year as far as Haslett is concerned.

I suppose the reason I didn\'t see it last year was because of how great the team had started out the past couple of years and I wanted to believe the late season collapses were not the fault of Haslett. I now think otherwise.

This is not to say that I think everything has been Hasletts fault and I don\'t think WhoDat is suggesting that either. But, it now seems so clear to me that Haslett has made a lot of mistakes. Mistakes that just can\'t be dismissed.

Anyway, WhoDat, I\'ll concede this one to you. I don\'t mind admitting I was wrong. I just hope Haslett can turn things around because at this point he worries me more than anything else.
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Old 03-19-2005, 09:59 AM   #4
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Dwelling on the past?

A few other GREAT predictions - this is why he doesn\'t make predictions anymore he only attacks other\'s...

7/17/03
Fact is that haveing a great safety with great speed makes the whole secondary much much better. Sammy Knight made some picks and laid some leather on the opposing teams receivers but he lacked the speed to get to a receiver once the ball was in the air.

Tebucky Jones has all the qualites that Sammy Knight has with one very important difference. SPEED!!!

I actually think our seconday has the potential to be one of the best in the league this year.


(about Knight)
Who considered him a ball hawk? Not me!! He made some picks but as many times as the ball was thrown against us, that\'s not unexpected. (NOTE: Nevermind that Knight has the SECOND most takeaways in the league over the last 6 years.)

You put Jones back there and you see how many picks he gets.

And yes I think our secondary will be very good this year along with the rest of the defensive side of the ball.

6/3/03
Does he have what it takes to be an elite NFL quarterback? I think the anwser is yes. I think he is cool in the pocket, has a great arm, and is very moblie.
As a matter a fact I don\'t think there is a current NFl quarterback with as much potential as Aaron Brooks.



7/29/03
All of that brings me to my point, which is, they say there are no more dominate teams in the NFL, but the Saints have put together one of the best offenses and special teams in the league. If the rebuilt defense pans out like the other two units, IMO, the Saints have a chance to be an elite team for the next 3 or 4 years.
And you\'re in here talking about me flip flopping???


This defese has so much potential that it\'s down right scary really. This isn\'t like 15 years ago, where camp was the only time to work on a new defense, Mini-camps and off season perparation allows a defense to be learned much quicker.

Does no one remember my post where an incrediable amout of defense that finished near the bottom moved up to the top in one year. This is not magic. This is new talent that was brought in. Just like we did.

Top 10. Write it down. Book it.
That\'s right folks, Billy predicted a TOP 10 DEFENSE


8/5/03
I think the Saints can beat any team on their schedule, but the problem is the last couple of years they have have shown they can be beaten by any team. Great offense, best special teams. I\'ll give the defense the benifit of doubt and go with--13-3

I don\'t think it takes as long for defenses to gel as it used to. Looking at the rise of defenses from year to year, I think it is a real possibility that the defense can do great things this year. IMO, the talent is there.
Sorry Billy, I misquoted you. I said you predicted 12-4. Actually, it was 13-3.

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Old 03-19-2005, 10:04 AM   #5
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Dwelling on the past?

i think being a playoff team is by no means \"cream of the crop\". 37.5% of the teams go to the playoffs. that is why it is such an indictment to not even make that grade for 4 years.

i think this team has been criticized and identified not by just fans but widely from national media as being perhaps the most underachieving team in the league. as for pure talent, i do think they have had enough to have been in the playoffs at least. after you get there, that is another story that establishes a team\'s legacy at a higher level. during the past season the arizona game was a solid \"should have won\" game. at least one or maybe both the atlanta and minny losses were \"shouldas\". that is 10 or 11 wins and playoffs. not losing games that should be won are more vital to continued success than pulling off the big upsets imo. that is what this team has done these past few years- some high flying big wins along with collapses like the 2002 end losses to minny and league dregs carolina and cincy to not take that next step.

i started a thread looking at the vikings overhaul this offseason. whether it works or not it is to be seen. what i liked though is that after a similar history as the saints the past 5 years (strong offense, porous defense, one playoff appearance during tice\'s 4yr reign) they decided not to be satidfied with the same formula that has yielded similar results year after year. defense does win championships. so? let\'s get defense then. let\'s get rid of an obnoxious prima donna even if he is one of the best ever at his position. if we do not go anywhere again let\'s not do it over the same way we have the past 4 years. i will count the saints offseason successful if they get the dat n 2nd trade done. if it is the same group of LBs less hodge depending on another rookie i cannot do that. i would however have been more excited to see the defense overhauled ala the vikings. not necessarily the biggest names or highest costing players but make decisive impacting changes to the very last ranked defense inthe league. the who\'s and how\'s of that are and endless speculation that many have pondered here.

i am hopeful. i am a saints fan so you better have hope. many years that is all there is. i just know what i see on the field and what an administration is by there actions. these players can and should be achieving more. loomis is no finks.

ps/ calling dat out like that is bullsh!t. quit arguing for the sake of arguing and purposefully trying to attract attention through such immature pot stirring.

[Edited on 19/3/2005 by LKelley67]
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Old 03-19-2005, 10:12 AM   #6
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Dwelling on the past?

WhoDat --


I used you as an example, athough I could have used one of many guys on this board.

But, I used you because of you inconsisent views.

It seems to me that you \"double-dip\" when it comes to the talent vs. coaching issue.

Example:

Yes, this team has had enough talent to go to the playoffs for the last five years.
So, we really didn\'t need to add anyone this offseason and we will have enough talent to make the playoffs?!

That\'s where you lose me, WhoDat. I\'m really not trying to diminish your \"credibility\", I\'m just trying to understand your position.

In other threads you consistently say that this team is \"severly\" lacking in talent.

Here\'s some areas you say we need other players:

1. Quarterback.
2. Both offensive tackles.
3. Tightend.
4. MLB.
5. SLB.
6. WLB.
7. DT
8. CB
9. FS

What gives? Why don\'t you consistently state that Haslett and company have done a fine job of assembling playoff talent and that coaching is the problem.

Instead, you seem to be all over the place. Haslett can\'t develop talent. Haslett can\'t spot talent. Then you turn right around and say:

Yes, this team has had enough talent to go to the playoffs for the last five years.
And don\'t be telling me nothing about trying to diminish your \"credibility.\" Unless you\'d like me to go dig up somethings that you\'ve started about me.?



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Old 03-19-2005, 11:18 AM   #7
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Dwelling on the past?


But, I prefer not to dwell on the past as it really has no bearing on the future.

Really, all I\'m interested in is the 2005 season. Not 2004 or 2003 or any of the previous years.

It seems to me that some Saints\' fans love to dwell on the past more than they should.

.. for a guy whose posts have stats plastered all over 9 out of 10 times...
:rollinglaugh:
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Old 03-19-2005, 01:19 PM   #8
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Dwelling on the past?

Thin ice, boys, very thin ice! Play nice.
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Old 03-19-2005, 09:00 PM   #9
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Dwelling on the past?

That\'s where you lose me, WhoDat. I\'m really not trying to diminish your \"credibility\", I\'m just trying to understand your position.

In other threads you consistently say that this team is \"severly\" lacking in talent.
Against my better judgment, I\'ll play this game and assume that you actually are being straight here and really just don\'t understand my opinion.

I don\'t recall ever saying that the Saints uniformly lacked talent. I have said that there are \"severe\" (your word) gaps in the talent pool AT KEY POSITIONS. Linebacker is one of those, and has been for a long time. Wouldn\'t you agree?

As for, how I can say that this team has the ability to make the playoffs and simultaneously need to upgrade - I don\'t see how that\'s a problem. If your goal is to make the playoffs, that\'s fine. I want to see the Saints win it all.

What does that mean? Let me explain clearly.

- The Saints have the talent to make the playoffs. Coaching, maturity, and leadership have kept them from it.

- The Saints need to upgrade at KEY positions to become an upper tier Super Bowl contender.

- For all of the talent this Front Office has accumulated, it seems to have squandered incredible opportunity the last few years by ignoring the KEY positions like LB and DT, or by making incorrect choices...

I don\'t think it\'s all that hard a concept. Seattle made the playoffs, right? Does that mean that they don\'t need to improve? Does that mean that they have all the talent that they need at every position? I think the clear answer is no. Just b/c the Saints have the talent to make the playoffs doesn\'t mean that they don\'t have needs and areas in which they can improve. Would you disagree?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-19-2005, 10:36 PM   #10
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Dwelling on the past?

Ok. First of all, Billy is more of a optimist. Nothing wrong with that. His love for the game and the Saints brings him into every offseason as another season that \"might be the year.\" He dives into stats and sometimes his loyalty to players and coaches drives him to believe that this year might be different. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with that. I\'ve been a member of this site for a close to 2 years now. I never started posting things on the forums until recently. Personally I have enjoyed reading some postive feedback from different fans on the sight. Billy always has hope. Nothing wrong with that.

Whodat is more of a realist. He looks into the stats but most of his post are more of a realistic look at the team. Whodat has hope but dosen\'t let it get in the way of his approach to the team or the coaches. It may seem Whodat is more of a negetive person when it comes to the Saints, but he looks at the team needs. Whodat evaluates players, not just by stats, but by worth. Whether or not he likes the player, the loyalty to the player rarely out weighs the need for change. There is nothing wrong with that, either.

Both of you guys make dang good points. Billy keeps the hope, Whodat keeps it real.

Two different fans with two different views.

I will say when you guys get p**sed at each other, it gets pretty da*m funny.

I just wanted to add some rather obvious insight to the thread.

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