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bignic26 03-19-2005 07:04 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
I'm a true die hard Saints fan so that's why I can bash them when they need bashing. I was born and raised in LA and I've lived the through the pain that is being a Saints fan. That brings me to this post and the situation that the FO must address before we are to go to the next level.

We spend alot of time talking about which players we need and what positions we need help at and that's great. It's fun to talk about free agency and the draft, but I've yet to see anybody mention our biggest need. The thing we need more than any big time LB, DT, OT, or CB. The thing every other team in the league has that we don't. Leadership.

Look at every other team in the NFL and you'll see what seperates us from the rest of the league. You'll see why the Saints flounder in mediocrity year in and year out. Some teams are sorry every year because they don't have talent. We aren't one of those teams. We have just about as much raw talent as any team in the league. Why then do other teams do more than the Saints with equal or less talent? Because they have strong leadership. Somehow every year we reach right around .500 on talent alone. We manage to win about half of our games without any leadership. Imagine what we could do if we had some proven, strong leaders in the clubhouse.

In order for a good team to become great, that team must have leadership. Right now we are a good team, well above average in terms of player talent. I think, no I know that the Saints have the pontential to be great. I truly believe that with the right mix of talent, heart and leadership, that 8-8 record could easily turn into 12-4 and a run into the playoffs.

Today's NFL is so twisted and upside down. We comend players for playing through pain and playing with heart. When a guy is getting paid milliions of dollars to play football, it should be expected that he play through pain and play with heart. Unless he's INJURED and can't physically play, his butt should be on the field. If we have a hang-nail do we still have to work? The last thing on alot of players' mind is playing with heart and becoming a leader. The Saints roster just so happens to be full of that type of player. The FO must aquire more heart and more guys who can lead on the field and off.

Leadership comes from two sources, players and the coaching staff. If Haslett's has showed us anything during his tenure it's that he can't control players. Players don't respect or follow him. He doesn't get the most out of a player's talent. Hell, he can't even keep his player's in shape (i.e. the lunch bunch, Sully, Deuce, etc). So we can rule out the possibilty of leadership coming from the current coaching staff. That leaves the responsiblity of leading to the players. There are a few guys on our current roster with the potential to lead. Deuce could, but he's more of a quiet warrior. Will Smith has alot of class and will end up being the leader of the D. Bentley, B.Young, C.Watson, D.Smith all have promise but who else? Brooks or Horn? Who would look at them as leaders? They're more of a comedy act.

Somebody needs to step up and take control of this team or we'll continue to have the joy of watching 8-8 seasons for years to come! :casstet:

saintswhodi 03-19-2005 07:24 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
bignic, we have had some major discussions about leadership and its role on this board. Glad to see some new ideas. Now seeing as how I mainly agree with you, I don\'t have much of a response. But JKool should when he reads this. He has some real fine thoughts on leadership as well.

[Edited on 20/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

spkb25 03-19-2005 07:35 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
i dont disagree with the importance of leadership. look at the eagles and the pats. but i think what else they have is comraderie. we need to be a team. i mean with all the talks of talent how many guys are a stand out on the pats. so i agree with you. we need theese guys to feel the pressure that if they dont give it thier all they are leeting the team down. it would be nice and your right bro. we need some of that big time

JKool 03-19-2005 08:33 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
It seems to me that your general thesis - leadership can help us - is true. After that, there is lots of interesting stuff in your post.

(1) Why are you so sure we\'re equal or better than other teams in terms of raw talent? I\'ve been wondering about this lately. How does one decide if we have a lot of that or not?

(2) I agree that Brooks isn\'t a leader, but Joe? Surely he leads by example. I raised this in another thread, but if you\'re interested we could bring that discussion here too.

(3) Who is D. Bentley?

(4) I believe there are clearly leaders on our defense - McKenzie surely leads by example. Bellamy leads the defense - he calls the plays and gets guys organized. Surely Grant leads both vocally and by his play. However, the defense was on pace to be the worst in the history of the NFL. Thus, while I agree that leadership matters, I\'m not sure that it is obvious that getting some will make a bigger difference than getting better players, better coaching, and/or a better basic defensive scheme.

(4) I responded to your idea of \"playing through pain\" in another thread too, but we can also discuss that here if you are interested.

(5) Interesting thread. Welcome to the board, if I haven\'t already welcomed you.

xan 03-19-2005 11:40 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
A leader inspires devotion, selflessness and focus on a common goal. A leader is nominated, not self-acclaimed. A leader makes other people look good and lives to do it. A leader asks more of himself than he does of those he leads.

Where in the roster are there leaders?

It\'s a sure bet that Mike McKenzie will turn out to be a leader, as will Charles Grant. There needs to be someone on the offense who can assume a role, but it won\'t be Brooks and it won\'t be Horn. Bentley possilbly, but an offensive lineman can take things only so far. Some skill position player needs to promote the \"refuse to lose\" attitude that gets this team to the next level.

As for the FO, I don\'t think they are a stupid as some seem to think, but they really haven\'t had but one truely top five guy and he wasn\'t with the Saints nearly long enough (Jim Finks) to establish a legacy. But, there\'s a lot to be said for winning and learning from mistakes. These guys may turn out to be the freakin\' Einsteins of pro football one day from all the painful errors endured.

bignic26 03-19-2005 11:52 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
JKool, let me clear some things up for you if I may. D.Bentley is as follows: D as in short for defense, as in \"will end up being the leader of the D\". After the D (again short for defense) there is a period, which is used to indicate the end of a sentence, abbreviations, etc, etc. Then we have Bentley. Bentley is the last name of a player who plays for the New Orleans Saints. His first name is LeCharles. He plays on the O-line, I\'m sorry, offensive line. He plays center, you know, the one who snaps the ball to the QB, I\'m sorry quarterback.

As far as your question regarding the Saints talent in relation to other teams, this one is easy to answer. Iused my opinion as the basis for a statement. IMO, sorry in my opinion, the Saints have alot of talent. Almost as much as any team in the league and more than alot of teams. My whole point is that they have talent, but no leadership to take the team to the next level.

JKool, you and others keep telling me that we do have leaders. You says \"so and so is a good player, he leds by example\". I\'m not saying we need people to lead by the example of their play. This is the NFL, all of the players are good. If they don\'t play good, they get benched. If a leader was defined by his play on the field then all the players would be leaders. My point is that leadership is not about stats or how many passes a guy catches. Leaders dontlead by example with their play, they lead by example with their character and class. The Saints have alot of good players, but none of those players step up and lead.

Another thing, people keep relating a leader to the guy who is running around being vocal and screaming at people. That\'s one type of leader. I call that guy the \"Hype Man\". Guys like Ray Lewis and Brian Dawkins are Hype Men. We have plenty of those. We can talk with the best of em, but that\'s all we been doing. I\'ll give you that, there are more than one type of leader.

There\'s the Hype Men, The Leaders by Example (Play), and The Inspirational Leaders. We are in dire need of the latter. We don\'t have guys who inspire other players to play with everything they got. We don\'t have guys who inspire other players to keep themselves in shape. We don\'t have guys who inspire others to stay focused on winning games. No, instead we have a group of guys with no direction. No hunger for winning. We have a team that falls apart if they lose a couple of games. When this team gets down, they stay down. We need players or a coach who can pick up the teams spirit and keep their eyes on the prize. We need leaders who can keep the team focused on winning, on the field and off. We don\'t just need ra-ra guys screaming during the game. We need guys there that can reach other players on the field, in the locker room, in the offseason, in spring training, and in the workout programs. In order to win, focus must be kept not only during games, but in preparing for the game as well. We need guys who\'ll lead Monday through Sunday instead of just a few hours on gameday.

JKool 03-20-2005 12:55 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
I suppose by D. Smith, you meant Darrin Smith then? ;)

JKool 03-20-2005 12:57 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

As far as your question regarding the Saints talent in relation to other teams, this one is easy to answer. Iused my opinion as the basis for a statement. IMO, sorry in my opinion, the Saints have alot of talent. Almost as much as any team in the league and more than alot of teams. My whole point is that they have talent, but no leadership to take the team to the next level.
I got that you think that. I asked you why you think that. I thought it was an interesting question, but it seems to me that your more interested in being a funny man than having an interesting discussion about such matters. :P

JKool 03-20-2005 01:11 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

JKool, you and others keep telling me that we do have leaders. You says \"so and so is a good player, he leds by example\". I\'m not saying we need people to lead by the example of their play. This is the NFL, all of the players are good. If they don\'t play good, they get benched. If a leader was defined by his play on the field then all the players would be leaders.
That seems plainly false to me. There are guys like Victor Riley who clearly don\'t bring their A game every game. There are guys who don\'t play through the pain. There are guys who don\'t sell out on the sidelines. Those guys play in the NFL. Not all the players give their best every play, every game. Guys get lauded for having non-stop motors; other guys don\'t have that, or this wouldn\'t be recognized by scouts, coaches, other players, analysts, and so on.

I\'m sure you played ball at one time or another. You\'ve never experienced the guy who makes the big hit or the big catch - surely that inspires people. I know I used to think that was a hell of a thing back when I played. That is what I mean by leading by example - if you don\'t want to call that leadership, I guess I\'m ok with that. If you don\'t acknowledge that that makes a difference, then I\'d like to hear an argument to that effect.

Quote:

Another thing, people keep relating a leader to the guy who is running around being vocal and screaming at people. That\'s one type of leader. I call that guy the \"Hype Man\". Guys like Ray Lewis and Brian Dawkins are Hype Men. We have plenty of those. We can talk with the best of em, but that\'s all we been doing. I\'ll give you that, there are more than one type of leader.
Good examples. Here we agree.

Quote:

There\'s the Hype Men, The Leaders by Example (Play), and The Inspirational Leaders.
I acknowledged that you introduced a new kind of leader earlier. I said, I\'d ponder that. I wonder why you\'ve taken such a negative stance toward my view that there is a leader by example, when you acknowledge it as a type here?

Don\'t you think that leaders by example and hype-men are inspirational in their own way. Take the example that has been bandied about here the last few days - Horn in the Carolina game caught the TD and had to be helped from the field after the play - you don\'t think that kind of play is inspirational? I do. I mean IMO. ;)

Quote:

We don\'t have guys who inspire other players to keep themselves in shape. We don\'t have guys who inspire others to stay focused on winning games.
How do you know that? Do you hang out in the locker room, are you on the sideline, can you hear in the huddle, do you know about the friendships the players build with each other? Look, I agree with you that leadership is lacking, but I don\'t see as how you can justify these claims you just made.

Quote:

No hunger for winning. We have a team that falls apart if they lose a couple of games.
How do you reconcile this view with going from 4-8 to 8-8 this season?

Quote:

In order to win, focus must be kept not only during games, but in preparing for the game as well.
With this I agree 100%.

Quote:

We need guys who\'ll lead Monday through Sunday instead of just a few hours on gameday.
Again, I recognize this as an interesting view. I\'m still not sold, but I will continue to consider it.

jnormand 03-20-2005 01:26 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Good points by all. Bignic, just to clear things up. When LKelly asked about \"D. Bentley\".....ah...it was because it looked like you were using \"D\" as in the first name initial. Thats why LKelly asked who D. Bentley was. He was being a smartass, but in a joking way. You guys get brutal in here. But its funny as hell. :icon23:

jnormand 03-20-2005 01:29 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Not LKelly, I meant Jkool. Sorry about that. Now I\'m the jackass and Jkool is the smartass! :smile_bounce:

JKool 03-20-2005 02:12 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
You\'re right jnorm, I got what I was asking for, didn\'t I? \"Smartass,\" somehow that fits. ;)

ssmitty 03-20-2005 04:14 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

I\'m a true die hard Saints fan so that\'s why I can bash them when they need bashing. I was born and raised in LA and I\'ve lived the through the pain that is being a Saints fan. That brings me to this post and the situation that the FO must address before we are to go to the next level.

We spend alot of time talking about which players we need and what positions we need help at and that\'s great. It\'s fun to talk about free agency and the draft, but I\'ve yet to see anybody mention our biggest need. The thing we need more than any big time LB, DT, OT, or CB. The thing every other team in the league has that we don\'t. Leadership.

Look at every other team in the NFL and you\'ll see what seperates us from the rest of the league. You\'ll see why the Saints flounder in mediocrity year in and year out. Some teams are sorry every year because they don\'t have talent. We aren\'t one of those teams. We have just about as much raw talent as any team in the league. Why then do other teams do more than the Saints with equal or less talent? Because they have strong leadership. Somehow every year we reach right around .500 on talent alone. We manage to win about half of our games without any leadership. Imagine what we could do if we had some proven, strong leaders in the clubhouse.

In order for a good team to become great, that team must have leadership. Right now we are a good team, well above average in terms of player talent. I think, no I know that the Saints have the pontential to be great. I truly believe that with the right mix of talent, heart and leadership, that 8-8 record could easily turn into 12-4 and a run into the playoffs.
[quote:836fa5f8f7]
Today\'s NFL is so twisted and upside down. We comend players for playing through pain and playing with heart. When a guy is getting paid milliions of dollars to play football, it should be expected that he play through pain and play with heart. Unless he\'s INJURED and can\'t physically play, his butt should be on the field. If we have a hang-nail do we still have to work? The last thing on alot of players\' mind is playing with heart and becoming a leader. The Saints roster just so happens to be full of that type of player. The FO must aquire more heart and more guys who can lead on the field and off.
i agree a player making millions should play hurt if capable, and while most do and some refuse to be held out, some won\'t. as for heart, that\'s inbreed.........you either have it or you don\'t......no one can pay you for it.....smitty
Leadership comes from two sources, players and the coaching staff. If Haslett\'s has showed us anything during his tenure it\'s that he can\'t control players. Players don\'t respect or follow him. He doesn\'t get the most out of a player\'s talent. Hell, he can\'t even keep his player\'s in shape (i.e. the lunch bunch, Sully, Deuce, etc). So we can rule out the possibilty of leadership coming from the current coaching staff. That leaves the responsiblity of leading to the players. There are a few guys on our current roster with the potential to lead. Deuce could, but he\'s more of a quiet warrior. Will Smith has alot of class and will end up being the leader of the D. Bentley, B.Young, C.Watson, D.Smith all have promise but who else? Brooks or Horn? Who would look at them as leaders? They\'re more of a comedy act.

Somebody needs to step up and take control of this team or we\'ll continue to have the joy of watching 8-8 seasons for years to come! :casstet:

Saint_LB 03-20-2005 06:01 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
If you call a smart-a$$ someone who takes someone else\'s thread and picks it apart like my high school Sr. Enlish Lit. teacher would do, then if the shoe fits.... ;)

JKool 03-20-2005 09:57 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
;)

High School English teacher, eh?

:read:

FireVenturi 03-20-2005 10:15 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Leaders.....Horn,Conwell,Bentley,Grant,Smith,McKenzie, Bellamy,Gleason. Seems like we have some leaders.....lets get some LB\'s.

jnormand 03-20-2005 10:33 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Ok, now I\'m no longer a jacka$$, I\'m a smarta$$ too! Hey, everyone should join, we got jackets!

Bu

GoldenTomb 03-20-2005 10:49 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

Leaders.....Horn,Conwell,Bentley,Grant,Smith,McKenzie, Bellamy,Gleason. Seems like we have some leaders.....lets get some LB\'s.
Well no I wouldn\'t call them true leaders. When your head coach has to throw a temper tantrum in the middle of the game to inspire his team, that means all of the guys mentioned above are NOT speaking up and being vocal like they should. A leader is like a Ray Lewis. Say what you will about Ray Lewis, but he is the unquestioned leader of the Ravens. Have you ever seen him on NFL Films??? This dude will totally dog out the most talented player on the team, and he will pump up the second string long snapper who\'ll never see the field. He has charisma....his attitude is contagious and the rest of the team follows his lead. It\'s pretty clear that none of our players possess that kind of abilty to lead.

JKool 03-20-2005 11:12 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Wasn\'t Ray Lewis recently on trial for something fairly bad? If so, I don\'t think he has the kind of leadership (which I generally think of as Integrity) that bignic had in mind. Maybe I\'m wrong about both of these points though.

In football, leadership is a shared thing. Sure it is good to have guys who are great leaders in all the ways we\'re talking about. However, even the greatest leaders have off-days when they need help from their reliable side-kick. I agree that in general leadership on the Saints has been a problem.

Certainly one way to diagnose this problem is to say that we don\'t have one guy who is THE leader of the team - like a Ray Lewis, John Elway, Ronnie Lott, or whomever. However, that isn\'t a necessity. Who on the Pats this year is THE guy. They appear to me to have many guys with different levels of the different kinds of leadership - all it takes is the right guy with the right kind of leadership to setp up at the right time.

Thus, the need for A leader seems not a necessity to me. I do, however, agree that we could use more leadership in general. I believe that perhaps it is the case that we are missing an Integrity guy, but I\'m not sure that is obvious based on anything that has been said so far. I further wonder about the value of THE Integrity guy - perhaps we merely need more players with integrity and not one guy to pull everyone together? I\'m still a bit confused by this idea, but I think progress is being made.

GoldenTomb 03-20-2005 11:38 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

Wasn\'t Ray Lewis recently on trial for something fairly bad? If so, I don\'t think he has the kind of leadership (which I generally think of as Integrity) that bignic had in mind. Maybe I\'m wrong about both of these points though.

In football, leadership is a shared thing. Sure it is good to have guys who are great leaders in all the ways we\'re talking about. However, even the greatest leaders have off-days when they need help from their reliable side-kick. I agree that in general leadership on the Saints has been a problem.

Certainly one way to diagnose this problem is to say that we don\'t have one guy who is THE leader of the team - like a Ray Lewis, John Elway, Ronnie Lott, or whomever. However, that isn\'t a necessity. Who on the Pats this year is THE guy. They appear to me to have many guys with different levels of the different kinds of leadership - all it takes is the right guy with the right kind of leadership to setp up at the right time.

Thus, the need for A leader seems not a necessity to me. I do, however, agree that we could use more leadership in general. I believe that perhaps it is the case that we are missing an Integrity guy, but I\'m not sure that is obvious based on anything that has been said so far. I further wonder about the value of THE Integrity guy - perhaps we merely need more players with integrity and not one guy to pull everyone together? I\'m still a bit confused by this idea, but I think progress is being made.
I would like to know what Ray Lewis\'s trial has to do with his leadership on the field and in the locker room. I never said that leaders have to model citizens, because they don\'t, ESPECIALLY in the NFL. Leaders have to make sure that the job gets done and people come to work ready to perform. Do you think anyone says \"Hey weren\'t you just on trial\" when he says what he has to say? Please....personal life and work are two separate things. Still say what you will, but his leadership style is effective and is far better than the crap we have.

Leadership has to start from SOMEWHERE. Someone has to start it....it can\'t come from nothing. It comes from someone...one person that is.....taking the initiative. And every team with good leadership has a top leader. I agree with you about the supporting cast, but there is always a top guy. Who is that guy on the Patriots....I\'m not sure, but I\'m positive that there isn\'t a group that assumes an equal burden of leadership amongst themselves. You\'d have to ask the Pats faithful. Willie McGinest maybe?? I\'m sure there is one person in the Pats locker room that, when this guy speaks, everyone else will shut the hell up.

Joe Horn made comments that when their \"leaders\" are trying to speak, they have rookies and some vets that laugh and joke while they\'re trying to speak. That doesn\'t sound like strong leadership to me.

saintswhodi 03-20-2005 11:46 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Unless we are talking strictly about players as leaders, I think the Pats leadership comes directly from their coaches. They have a no BS approach with all players, and pump that noone is above the team concept to all. That\'s where their leadership comes from. I think it was noted pretty early on we feel we won\'t get that kinda leadership from our guys. Carry on. :cool:

GoldenTomb 03-20-2005 11:57 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Quote:

Unless we are talking strictly about players as leaders, I think the Pats leadership comes directly from their coaches. They have a no BS approach with all players, and pump that noone is above the team concept to all. That\'s where their leadership comes from. I think it was noted pretty early on we feel we won\'t get that kinda leadership from our guys. Carry on. :cool:
You need both whodi. You have to have good coach leaders, but you also have to have players that buy what you are trying to sell them(heard Denny Green say this). If you don\'t have strong players that will take a stand and believe in what the coach is telling them(whether they are acting or not), then that\'s where the leadership ladder falls. I think Haslett can be a good coach leader, but he has a problem. Who is Haslett\'s favorite son??? I hate to bring it here but it\'s AB. He isn\'t a leader and will never be one. That is a PERFECT example.

Talent aside...if you can\'t be a leader in the NFL...well it doesn\'t make success impossible, but that much more difficult.

bignic26 03-20-2005 01:57 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
I feel like I\'m taking crazy pills right now. Golden Tomb, Xan and I seem to be the only three Saints fans in here that recognize that the team lacks true leadership. JKool, you can try to pick apart my views and opinions all you want, that\'s your right. But pick this view apart, if the Saints had better leadership, be it from the coach or players, they would win more games. Do you think that we have 8-8 talent? Can you honestly tell me that better leadership and discipline wouldn\'t result in a better team? ;)

You ask how do I know certain things about the team. That\'s just it. I don\'t know anything but what I see from their play and behavior. You don\'t have to be John Clayton to see that this team has no direction, discipline, or leadership. I didn\'t just wake up the other day and say, \"I\'m going to think that the Saints don\'t have any leadership\". My opinion of the team has been molded over the last few years by the obvious.

In this case the obvious being the inconsistent play on the field and the overall lack of class by some of the players. For example, compare the way the Saints carry themselves with the way the Patriots carry themselves. Do the Patriots players: pull out cell phones after touchdowns, act like high school kids in the endzone, blast teammates, the FO, or the coach in the media, put their personal stats higher in importance than the teams success(AB), smile and laugh after stupid passes and losses, etc, etc, etc. The list could keep going indefinitely, but I won\'t waste my time trying to make a point to people who think the team is just fine the way it is. But you can\'t deny the fact that the Patriots are a team that combines talent with leadership and discipline. The Saints are an example of solid talent with no direction. ;)


JKool 03-20-2005 03:02 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
bignic,

What the heck is \"true leadership\"? Look, I\'m not trying to be annoying here; I thought you were saying something pretty interesting, and I\'m trying to figure out if I agree.

Quote:

JKool, you can try to pick apart my views and opinions all you want, that\'s your right. But pick this view apart, if the Saints had better leadership, be it from the coach or players, they would win more games. Do you think that we have 8-8 talent? Can you honestly tell me that better leadership and discipline wouldn\'t result in a better team?
(1) Again, not trying to \"pick anything apart\". I\'m just trying to understand your view.

(2) The view that \"leadership from somewhere\" would lead to more wins isn\'t obviously true to me. That is why I was trying to understand your view. I ALREADY AGREED THAT WE LACK LEADERSHIP (in fact, I don\'t think ANYONE disagreed with that). I\'m just trying to understand what that means, how to fix it, what that is like, what are its implications and so on. Since you started this thread, I thought we could explore those things, if you\'re not interested in that I\'ll stop asking you about your view, so let me know.

(3) My current view is that it is unclear how talented this team is. We\'ve been roughly .500 for four years now. There are many possible reasons for this - one is lack of leadership, another is a lack of actual talent, another is unwillingness of our owner to shell out the cash (though I\'m skeptical of this one), yet another is a voodoo curse (I\'m pretty sure it isn\'t that either), and the list goes on. Why are you so sure that one of these many possible explanations is so much better than the others? Actually, that question is a bit unfair; how about this one - why do you think we have so much talent, when we go only .500 over four years?

(4) I didn\'t wake up one morning and think to myself \"the Saints have leadership\" either. What is your point? Leadership has come up here many times - from the ensuing discussion we\'ve made interesting discoveries about different kinds of leadership - leading by example and vocal leadership - as well as somethings about their role and value in football. You\'ve suggested a third kind THAT I\'M INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT MORE ABOUT, why aren\'t you intested in discussing that idea with me? I just want to know how it works in terms of winning football games. It is like you\'ve decided that I just disagree with you and that\'s it; I really want to know how your view works!

Golden Tomb,

(1) The point about Lewis was this (and it wasn\'t directed at your view really): if what the Saints need is a real integrity/character guy, Lewis isn\'t an example of that. I was thinking about whether or not there was a third kind of leadership players should have/need - the kind of thing that bignic was suggesting (which I\'ve been calling integrity, though I\'m starting to think that isn\'t the right word). Apologies that you took that as a criticism, it was just a thought.

(2) I agree that leadership has to start somewhere. However, why does it have to come from someONE, why not a group of people with unique abilities coming together in the right way - sometimes the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts, right? I don\'t see why we need ONE leader (though I can see how that might be nice); why not a group of leaders who compliment each other?

(3) I still agree that we lack leadership. I\'m really more interested in understanding what kind of leadership we lack, how we might get it, and what kind of impact leadership has on W-L.

jnormand 03-20-2005 03:22 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
JKool is basically saying that the team needs to be just that, a TEAM. The FO, the coaches, the players, the owner....all need to be a TEAM.

When you have a team acting as a team, you don\'t need just one leader. You have several people acting as one, forming a team of leaders.

There will be several individuals with more of a leadership role, but the entire team is not headed by one LEADER.

At least I think thats what your trying to say......right.

JKool 03-20-2005 03:32 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
jnorm,

I hadn\'t really thought of it that way, but that is an interesting way of putting the point. It sounds more or less right to me, but I\'ll think on it a bit more.

saintz08 03-20-2005 06:08 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
The point of Leadership on the Saints is an interesting one , certainly you would think they have leaders on the field and certainly on both sides of the ball .

The most interesting thoughts on leadership for the Saints , may come from various reports if you read them .

From PFW Whispers section
Quote:

The Saints plan to simplify their playbook under new offensive coordinator Mike Sheppard because they feel the offense used by former offensive coordinator Mike McCarthy forced players to think more than react on the field.
Certainly this is not the first time a report has been made as to say something is wrong with the play calling .For the last 2 years Venturi has been trying to find a way to simplify the defensive scheme , on or around mid season .Deuce reported earlier in the season that Brooks was calling the wrong blocking on plays .

To simplify all this .

How does a player lead when he has no faith in the system ??? .. ;)

JKool 03-20-2005 06:14 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
That is an interesting question 08!

There are some who can lead even when the system is flawed, but those are usually the greatest of leaders. Political examples come to mind - George Washington lead when the system was flawed and crumbling, for example.

Maybe this is the heart of bignic\'s suggestion: Since there is no leadership from proper sources (e.g. coaches), then we need a player to rise up from the ranks and instill faith in his teammates?

It is not clear to me that Haz can\'t lead some of the time, or aggregate (\"teamness\") leadership can\'t take the place of a single, strong leader, but maybe the situation is so dire we need one of these \"super leaders\". I can\'t say that I believe that, but at least it makes some sense to me.

bignic26 03-20-2005 08:32 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
This thread is doing what threads should. It\'s making people think. The idea of leadership in football is alot more complex and important than the average fan realizes.

Let me see if I can show you guys where I\'m coming from with my views. I played high school football at arguably the best high school football program in not only the state of LA, but the entire nation as well. West Monroe High School. Year in and year out the Rebels have great success and almost always end up in the state championship. A person looking at that team from an outside perspective would say that they continue to have great success because they have great players and coaching. That couldn\'t be further from the truth. The reason the Rebels win every year is because the team has great leadership from the coaches all the way down to the water boys. The team prides itself on class, discipline and dignity. You won\'t find a more disciplined team in the nation. Their success isn\'t about great players. We\'ve had two players go to the NFL that I can remember, Shawn King and Bradie James for Dallas. That\'s nothing compared with the amount of pro players powerhouse high school teams like Long Beach Poly or Del Le Salle , both in California, churn out.

I know damn good and well that the NFL isn\'t class 5A high school football, but the same principles apply in any team sport. I also know that grown men don\'t respond to discipline and leadership the same way kids do. But winning teams are built the same way no matter the sport or level.

Here are the basic ingredients in my recipe for success in team sports at any level: Leadership, Integrity, Heart, Talent, Good Teachers, Trust, Direction, Goals, Comradery, and An Overall Sense of Team. Of course there are alot more things that go into the \"Stew of Success\", if you will. If you look at our beloved team with an objective eye, you will see that we are severely lacking in many of those aspects of winning.

JKool keeps asking how the kind of leadership I\'m referring to relates to Ws and Ls. Well JKool, think of it like this, I\'ll use my best analogy. Imagine those big wine glass fountain things you see at weddings and such. Before all of the glasses can be filled with wine the first must be filled. The rest of the glasses are filled by the trickle down effect. Eventually all of the glasses will be filled, but not without the top glasses being filled first.

Now think of the overall pyramid structure of glasses as a team, and each individual glass as a player. Think of the wine as my \"Stew of Success\". Now, a player, a group of players, a coach, or a group of coaches must take the initiative and begin to pour the stew on the team, by spreading a new approach to team unity and success. At first only a few players will be filled, or catch on to the new idea. If the person or persons keep pouring, eventually all of the players will be reached and will buy into the new concept of being a successful team. Thus, in theory, all the players will be on one page. They will all have what it takes to win games consistently.

My point is simple, we don\'t have the type of leaders who can start the process of creating a winning and focused attitude. Talent plus \"Stew of Success\" equals the opportunity to win on a weekly basis. Talent plus no leadership, discipline, or direction equals the ability to win some games but with no consistency. JKool let me know if you still can\'t understand what I\'m trying to say. :casstet:

JKool 03-20-2005 09:09 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
I like your analogy... very fancy.

So, you seem to agree with me that a core of guys who can lead. More on this, while I work on getting the analogy.

The stew is the set of goals set up by the coaches - starting with the HC, I imagine. This set of goals, if achieved is assumed to be all the ingredients to success. I can see how this has to do with W-L. When I played, we called it the ladder of success. The first rung was always something cheezy like \"remember your helmet\"; of course, the top rung was \"win the championship game\". Thus, if you climbed all the rungs, you\'d have a winning team. Of course, in HS the ladder always included things like \"be a positive memeber of the community\" or \"study hard, play hard\". I\'m not sure that those things ever had much to do with winning as a team - certainly nowhere near as much as \"have no penalities in a game\" - they are a way of justifying sports as a character builder to parents and the school board. Either way, I think I\'ve got this one.

The structure of glasses demonstrates how the stew (the plan) is distributed to the players. Of course, this structure supposes that it must start with one guy. I\'m sure you don\'t really think that. Of course, if there aren\'t a core of guys on board with the recieving the stew (the plan), it is unlikely it will get to all the guys. So, I don\'t see that there is a need for one leader - as jnorm might put it, \"if you have a TEAM attitude, the plan should flow easily to all the players.\" Of course, if the guys who get on board initially are good leaders themselves (whatever that means), then the plan (stew) will spread more quickly.

So, I think we agree on these points:
(1) There must be a good and effective plan, designed by the people at the top. (The plan itself is not leadership, it is the disemination of the plan that requires leadership.)
(2) In many (all?) cases, the plan must flow from the higher ups to the lower downs. (This is also not leadership, it is a fact about communication.)
(3) The plan will get spread around faster if it is perpetuated (and accepted by) the strong leaders on the team. Those leaders are the people who have charisma (or some other means of getting others on board with the plan, like strength or something of value).

So, you have hit on another characteristic that is related to leadership, just as I suspected! It isn\'t integrity as I first postulated, it is charisma - the ability to get others to listen and follow. Does that sound right?

It does seem to me that this is something that others have been talking about. AB isn\'t very charismatic; he says stupid things, he fails to command respect due to his sideline smiles, etc. Your claim appears to be that Joe Horn isn\'t charismatic either, since he is out for number one (and who can really respect that in another). I guess, I\'m on board with these ideas (though in Joe\'s case, it isn\'t as obvious).

It isn\'t clear to me though, from observing games and reading related reports, that the Saints have any more or less charismatic leaders than other teams. Maybe someone has more information about this than I do? If we have the same number of charisma guys, then our problem isn\'t that. If have none and other teams have one or two, then I\'m not sure what to say about that - that is, I\'m not sure how big a factor it is.

Whodi suggested earlier that the Pats are strong because of the charisma of their coaches. I\'m willing to grant that we don\'t have that. Maybe that is all you were trying to say. It seemed to me though that the big concern was that we didn\'t have any leaders (read: charismatic players) - I guess I don\'t know about that.

Saint_LB 03-21-2005 06:31 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
This leadership topic is getting complicated. Let\'s see if I got this straight. We are going to make some stew and pour it all over our players, who will be in a pyramid formation, kinda like the cheerleaders do. The only problem I can see is how are we going to get to the top to pour the stew. Also, how are we going to form the pyramid. Do the big guys go on bottom, and work upwards until we have someone like M. Lewis at the top. Like I said, sounds complicated. Maybe we should just try to teach them all about rocket science. :D

JKool 03-21-2005 11:46 AM

Saints = No Leadership
 
:D

bignic26 03-21-2005 12:25 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
JKool I rest my case. I\'ve said my piece and let my voice be heard on the issue. I\'ve nothing left to give. We are Rocky and Apollo at the end of Rocky I. I don\'t know how it came to this. It\'s gone from a simple debate, to some sort of weird leadership crusade for me. I\'ve even resorted to bizarre analogies that have confused everyone. What\'s next, pie graphs and bar charts? All I ever wanted to do was point out the fact that we nead better leadership. Somewhere though, things took a turn for worse... ;)

GumboBC 03-21-2005 01:05 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
I\'ve heard just about everything that\'s wrong with the Saints be blamed on lack of leadership. Mainly because that\'s just how someone feels or because that\'s just taking the easy way out.

If a receiver drops a pass is that lack of leadership?
If a lineman misses a block is that lack of leadership?
If a player misses an assignment is that lack of leadership?
If a player jumps offsides is that lack of leadership?

Sure, we can blame all of those problems on leadership.

Or we could say that we\'ve got some dumb players that can\'t focus. Or maybe some of our players are simply overrated.





[Edited on 21/3/2005 by GumboBC]

baronm 03-21-2005 01:28 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
gumbo, bignic..ya\'ll kill me...you want smarter players who can lead...but them blast the changes that would get high character, more intllegent football players.

no-we are not going to find a better qb right off than brooks in the draft outside of rogers or smith..but the qb position needs to be upgraded before we will go far in the playoffs.

on defense..we need leaders who can bring what is written in the playbook to the football feild...but yet trying to get another first rounder or even streching slightly to get on of only two linebackers that are of any quality that this is written in their scouting reports is not something you want....

and you wonder why the saints never stay consistent....

bignic26 03-21-2005 02:53 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
If a receiver drops a pass is that lack of leadership?
If a lineman misses a block is that lack of leadership?
If a player misses an assignment is that lack of leadership?
If a player jumps offsides is that lack of leadership?

No, none of that has to do with a lack of leadership. GumboBC, all of that can be directly attributed to the fact that Aaron \"The Bonehead\" Brooks is our QB. You ever heard the phrase \"Sh*t flows downhill\"? Well so does pure stupidity. Any problem that deals with a stupid mistake can be linked to Brooks, period.

Saint_LB 03-21-2005 02:58 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 

Quote:

No, none of that has to do with a lack of leadership. GumboBC, all of that can be directly attributed to the fact that Aaron \"The Bonehead\" Brooks is our QB. You ever heard the phrase \"Sh*t flows downhill\"? Well so does pure stupidity. Any problem that deals with a stupid mistake can be linked to Brooks, period.
Bring it on, Gumbo...the gauntlet has been thrown out!! :duel:

saintswhodi 03-21-2005 03:07 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Where is the smiley that puts his hands on his head and ducks? This guy is close. :sulkoff:

[Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 21/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

bignic26 03-21-2005 03:13 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Close to what whodi? I\'ve seen that Gumbo has a soft spot for Brooks. Just pulling his chain a little, no harm intended. :shrug:

[Edited on 21/3/2005 by bignic26]

saintswhodi 03-21-2005 03:26 PM

Saints = No Leadership
 
Nothing to you bignic. That guy was just for me to duck out of the convo. Much like those world\'s most amazing videos, it will still be interesting to see though. ;)


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