Stats are evil

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 10:04 AM

Don\'t see just what you want to see.

I said \"a lot\" of Joe\'s stats are the result of late-game padding. I didn\'t say the majority of or most of. I think that, on a competitive team going into the playoffs, Joe is a borderline 1,000-yard reciever. On an underachieving, constantly playing from behind team, he\'s a 1,300-yard reciever. See...all about context.

So, the same would be true for Randy Moss (Vikings 8-8) and Mushin Muhammad (Panthers 7-9) too?

Come on man, let\'s go down the list of WRs in the NFL?

See .. context!!

saintswhodi · 03-24-2005, 10:04 AM

AB distributes the ball to all of his receivers just as well as any QB. That\'s a fact and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

If it\'s a fact, prove to me it\'s true. Prove to us all this amazing fact is true. The only FACT is that the NFL changed the rules regarding DBs covering receivers, and that benefitted the whole league. What we know is a FACT, is we had a top shelf running game in 2003 and Joe Horn posted his worst numbers as a Saint. So since what you claim to be a fact I will bet is not, you prove your \"fact.\" Noone else laid claim to their statement as FACT, so step up big boy. Prove us wrong. I am going by my own observation, and the observation of others, and the observation of someone I know as a season ticket holder and as unbiased as they come. So prove your FACT. I doubt very seriously you can.

GoldenTomb · 03-24-2005, 10:17 AM

Don\'t see just what you want to see.

I said \"a lot\" of Joe\'s stats are the result of late-game padding. I didn\'t say the majority of or most of. I think that, on a competitive team going into the playoffs, Joe is a borderline 1,000-yard reciever. On an underachieving, constantly playing from behind team, he\'s a 1,300-yard reciever. See...all about context.

So, the same would be true for Randy Moss (Vikings 8-8) and Mushin Muhammad (Panthers 7-9) too?

Come on man, let\'s go down the list of WRs in the NFL?

See .. context!!

U seem to be contradicting your own point on the context issue.

By context that means that each team\'s situation should be viewed differently and independently. What does Mushlin Muhammed or Randy Moss have to do with the Saints??

He\'s put up great numbers almost every year he\'s been with the Saints. However every year he\'s put up those numbers we\'ve been losing or playing from behind for the majority of those games. That\'s just the facts. I\'ve watched the games and you have.

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by GoldenTomb]

saintswhodi · 03-24-2005, 10:18 AM

And just to refute this statement:

Secondly: Brooks doesn\'t throw the ball to Joe Horn anymore than what other QBs throw to their number 1 receivers.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...3646&Submit=Go Bottom of the page. 153 balls thrown to Joe.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...3514&Submit=Go 139 thrown at Harrison.

Wow and 115 thrown at Wayne http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5477&Submit=Go

And 102 at Stokley http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...4755&Submit=Go

Stallworth got 106 his way http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5899&Submit=Go

and poor Pathon got 67 http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5899&Submit=Go

Wanna change your \"facts\" again?

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 10:19 AM

Here\'s a few FACTS for you saintwhodi. Here are the stats for four other teams top 3 WRs. Read \'em and weep. ]

What does it tell you? Now, you made the statement that Brooks locks on to Joe Horn. Is that just the way you feell and you have NOTHING to back it up with or do you have some evidence. I\'m all ears..

Saints:
Joe Horn - 94 catches
Donte\' Stallworth- 58 catches
Jerome Pathon - 34 catches

Panthers:
Muhammad- 93 catches
Colbert - 47 catches
Proehl - 34 catches

Seahawks:
Darrell Jackson 87
Bobby Engram 36
Koren Robinson 31

Broncos:
Smith 79
Lelie 54
Putzier 36

saintswhodi · 03-24-2005, 10:21 AM

I posted some facts before you. You do know COMPLETIONS do not say how many times a ball was THROWN AT someone right? Of course you don\'t or you wouldn\'t be posting that foolishness. Read the stats I posted right before yours and please learn what stats actually back up what you are saying. That was just poor.

GoldenTomb · 03-24-2005, 10:23 AM

I wouldn\'t say that catches matter when you\'re determining how many times a WR was thrown to.

A sure way to squash this would be to determine percentage of passes to each reciever mathematically.

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 10:32 AM

Passes thrown to:
1 Chad Johnson Cin 170
2 Laveranues Coles Was 168
3 Muhsin Muhammad Car 160
4 Derrick Mason Ten 158
5 Darrell Jackson Sea 156
6 Joe Horn NO 153
7 Eric Moulds Buf 152
8t Isaac Bruce StL 148
8t Tony Gonzalez KC 148

Joe Horn ranks right there with other number 1 receivers in the NFL. And that\'s taken from you\'re own stat source,

Your problem is that you try and only show part of the picture, saintwhodi. You\'re never going to get over on me and I doubt you\'ll get over on too many folks here by posting only part of what you want us to see.

Calling names?

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

saintswhodi · 03-24-2005, 10:32 AM

To follow up with GT, let me squash those silly stats.

Panthers:
Muhammad- 93 catches
Colbert - 47 catches
Proehl - 34 catches

Did anyoen say Delhomme didn\'t have tunnel vision for Muhammed? Could it be that his number one receiver Steve Smtih going down could affect that?

Seahawks:
Darrell Jackson 87
Bobby Engram 36
Koren Robinson 3

Koren Robinson was suspended 4 games for drug issues, suspended another game for violating team rules, only started 8 and only played in 10 of 16 games. Nice call on that one.

Broncos:
Smith 79
Lelie 54
Putzier 36

So basically you are saying Smith catching 25 more passes than Lelie is the same as Joe catching 36 more catches than Stallworth? This is unreal. And so you understand, COMPLETIONS do not show THROWS AT a player, but I posted those stats for you from the best offense in the league. So your stats were false and proved nothign at all. Why should I have expected different?

4saintspirit · 03-24-2005, 10:35 AM

I am actually becoming amused. I think everyone on this thread agrees stats can be used to support any side. I am fairly certain no one is really trying to say that Horn is a top 5 receiver (I certainly do not - maybe top 10) -- so what is the argument -- I really can\'t find it - but to add fuel to the fire -- and to prove a point about stats can be used any which way -- to those who say Horn picked up all those yards at garbage time, AB tunnel vision etc. 1) a couple of years back we had a potent offense -- Horn still produced those types of numbers -- Horn has been producing those numbers consistently since he has been in New Orleans. 2) Maybe the reason why AB has tunnel vision is because he is a great receiver -- I mean why have tunnel vision for a mediocre receiver -- of course your go to receiver is your bets one 3) during garbage time the defensive line goes wild and just rushes the QB meaning less time to throw less time to get open 4) How many times was Horn thorwn out -- well what the heck does that prove -- someone compared completions to Harrison and completions to Horn and someone responded well how many times was Harrison thrown to etc. What does that prove -- Maybe AB overthrew Horn all the time -- not his fault -- the real stat necessary which is unavailable is how many catachable balls ere thrown Harrison\'s way versus Horn. I would guess that a higher ratio of Harrisons thrown to were catchable versus Horns.

03-24-2005, 10:04 AM	#11
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Stats are evil Don\'t see just what you want to see. I said \"a lot\" of Joe\'s stats are the result of late-game padding. I didn\'t say the majority of or most of. I think that, on a competitive team going into the playoffs, Joe is a borderline 1,000-yard reciever. On an underachieving, constantly playing from behind team, he\'s a 1,300-yard reciever. See...all about context. So, the same would be true for Randy Moss (Vikings 8-8) and Mushin Muhammad (Panthers 7-9) too? Come on man, let\'s go down the list of WRs in the NFL? See .. context!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 10:04 AM	#12
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Stats are evil AB distributes the ball to all of his receivers just as well as any QB. That\'s a fact and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. If it\'s a fact, prove to me it\'s true. Prove to us all this amazing fact is true. The only FACT is that the NFL changed the rules regarding DBs covering receivers, and that benefitted the whole league. What we know is a FACT, is we had a top shelf running game in 2003 and Joe Horn posted his worst numbers as a Saint. So since what you claim to be a fact I will bet is not, you prove your \"fact.\" Noone else laid claim to their statement as FACT, so step up big boy. Prove us wrong. I am going by my own observation, and the observation of others, and the observation of someone I know as a season ticket holder and as unbiased as they come. So prove your FACT. I doubt very seriously you can.

03-24-2005, 10:17 AM	#13
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	Stats are evil Don\'t see just what you want to see. I said \"a lot\" of Joe\'s stats are the result of late-game padding. I didn\'t say the majority of or most of. I think that, on a competitive team going into the playoffs, Joe is a borderline 1,000-yard reciever. On an underachieving, constantly playing from behind team, he\'s a 1,300-yard reciever. See...all about context. So, the same would be true for Randy Moss (Vikings 8-8) and Mushin Muhammad (Panthers 7-9) too? Come on man, let\'s go down the list of WRs in the NFL? See .. context!! U seem to be contradicting your own point on the context issue. By context that means that each team\'s situation should be viewed differently and independently. What does Mushlin Muhammed or Randy Moss have to do with the Saints?? He\'s put up great numbers almost every year he\'s been with the Saints. However every year he\'s put up those numbers we\'ve been losing or playing from behind for the majority of those games. That\'s just the facts. I\'ve watched the games and you have. [Edited on 24/3/2005 by GoldenTomb]
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591

03-24-2005, 10:18 AM	#14
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Stats are evil And just to refute this statement: Secondly: Brooks doesn\'t throw the ball to Joe Horn anymore than what other QBs throw to their number 1 receivers. http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...3646&Submit=Go Bottom of the page. 153 balls thrown to Joe. http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...3514&Submit=Go 139 thrown at Harrison. Wow and 115 thrown at Wayne http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5477&Submit=Go And 102 at Stokley http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...4755&Submit=Go Stallworth got 106 his way http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5899&Submit=Go and poor Pathon got 67 http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...5899&Submit=Go Wanna change your \"facts\" again? [Edited on 24/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

03-24-2005, 10:19 AM	#15
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Stats are evil Here\'s a few FACTS for you saintwhodi. Here are the stats for four other teams top 3 WRs. Read \'em and weep. ] What does it tell you? Now, you made the statement that Brooks locks on to Joe Horn. Is that just the way you feell and you have NOTHING to back it up with or do you have some evidence. I\'m all ears.. Saints: Joe Horn - 94 catches Donte\' Stallworth- 58 catches Jerome Pathon - 34 catches Panthers: Muhammad- 93 catches Colbert - 47 catches Proehl - 34 catches Seahawks: Darrell Jackson 87 Bobby Engram 36 Koren Robinson 31 Broncos: Smith 79 Lelie 54 Putzier 36
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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03-24-2005, 10:21 AM	#16
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Stats are evil I posted some facts before you. You do know COMPLETIONS do not say how many times a ball was THROWN AT someone right? Of course you don\'t or you wouldn\'t be posting that foolishness. Read the stats I posted right before yours and please learn what stats actually back up what you are saying. That was just poor.

03-24-2005, 10:23 AM	#17
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	Stats are evil I wouldn\'t say that catches matter when you\'re determining how many times a WR was thrown to. A sure way to squash this would be to determine percentage of passes to each reciever mathematically.
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591

03-24-2005, 10:32 AM	#18
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Stats are evil Passes thrown to: 1 Chad Johnson Cin 170 2 Laveranues Coles Was 168 3 Muhsin Muhammad Car 160 4 Derrick Mason Ten 158 5 Darrell Jackson Sea 156 6 Joe Horn NO 153 7 Eric Moulds Buf 152 8t Isaac Bruce StL 148 8t Tony Gonzalez KC 148 Joe Horn ranks right there with other number 1 receivers in the NFL. And that\'s taken from you\'re own stat source, Your problem is that you try and only show part of the picture, saintwhodi. You\'re never going to get over on me and I doubt you\'ll get over on too many folks here by posting only part of what you want us to see. Calling names? [Edited on 24/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 10:32 AM	#19
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Stats are evil To follow up with GT, let me squash those silly stats. Panthers: Muhammad- 93 catches Colbert - 47 catches Proehl - 34 catches Did anyoen say Delhomme didn\'t have tunnel vision for Muhammed? Could it be that his number one receiver Steve Smtih going down could affect that? Seahawks: Darrell Jackson 87 Bobby Engram 36 Koren Robinson 3 Koren Robinson was suspended 4 games for drug issues, suspended another game for violating team rules, only started 8 and only played in 10 of 16 games. Nice call on that one. Broncos: Smith 79 Lelie 54 Putzier 36 So basically you are saying Smith catching 25 more passes than Lelie is the same as Joe catching 36 more catches than Stallworth? This is unreal. And so you understand, COMPLETIONS do not show THROWS AT a player, but I posted those stats for you from the best offense in the league. So your stats were false and proved nothign at all. Why should I have expected different?

03-24-2005, 10:35 AM	#20
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Stats are evil I am actually becoming amused. I think everyone on this thread agrees stats can be used to support any side. I am fairly certain no one is really trying to say that Horn is a top 5 receiver (I certainly do not - maybe top 10) -- so what is the argument -- I really can\'t find it - but to add fuel to the fire -- and to prove a point about stats can be used any which way -- to those who say Horn picked up all those yards at garbage time, AB tunnel vision etc. 1) a couple of years back we had a potent offense -- Horn still produced those types of numbers -- Horn has been producing those numbers consistently since he has been in New Orleans. 2) Maybe the reason why AB has tunnel vision is because he is a great receiver -- I mean why have tunnel vision for a mediocre receiver -- of course your go to receiver is your bets one 3) during garbage time the defensive line goes wild and just rushes the QB meaning less time to throw less time to get open 4) How many times was Horn thorwn out -- well what the heck does that prove -- someone compared completions to Harrison and completions to Horn and someone responded well how many times was Harrison thrown to etc. What does that prove -- Maybe AB overthrew Horn all the time -- not his fault -- the real stat necessary which is unavailable is how many catachable balls ere thrown Harrison\'s way versus Horn. I would guess that a higher ratio of Harrisons thrown to were catchable versus Horns.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"