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The 5 most important players in '05.

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; As another general point (and I do mean it generally, not directed at anyone person), regardless of Gumbo\'s psychological motivations for starting this thread (which I\'m not going to guess at), isn\'t it an interesting question? I guess, speaking losely, ...

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Old 03-28-2005, 11:32 AM   #21
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The 5 most important players in '05.

As another general point (and I do mean it generally, not directed at anyone person), regardless of Gumbo\'s psychological motivations for starting this thread (which I\'m not going to guess at), isn\'t it an interesting question? I guess, speaking losely, I\'m not sure why everyone is so concerned about why Gumbo has started a post - even if it were for some horrible reason, couldn\'t the topic still be worth discussing?
Yes I think it\'s worth discussing, otherwise I wouldn\'t have replied. I was just surprised at the spin that was put on the subject and I had to comment on it.
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:47 PM   #22
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The 5 most important players in '05.

I suppose I could be spinning things? But, I\'m not!

What\'s utterly amazing to me is how some fans cannot seperate actual production from potential. This is not to knock anyone, it\'s just to point out how some look at things and others see something different.

I really think all of us would be better served looking at actual production rather than potential. Because when we talk about potential, I think we start to overrate certain players.

All potential means is: \"They haven\'t done it yet\". Is that spin? I think not...

A classsic example of looking at potential instead of actual production is Donte\' Stallworth. Based on potential, Stallworth is an elite receiver. Based on production, however, Stallworth has been very inconsistent in his NFL career. Before last season, folks were calling Stallworth a BUST. Last year Stallworth managed to silence some of his critics, but he hardly lived up to his \"hype\" nor did he live up to his first round draft status.

Boo Williams is another one! The coverted WR has shown flashes. But, like Stallworth, he\'s been very inconsistent. Are there actually fans who think Boo is the answer at TE? Based on what? Potential?!

Wayne Gandy is another one. In fact ... Gandy is probably one of the most inconsistent players on the team. Between his false starts and his \"questionable\" blocking, he has really been inconsistent.

I\'ve only listed a few players who are very questionable. There are many more ...

Here are some players that have been counted on very heavily at one time or another:

1. Victor Riley.
2. Ernie Conwell.
3 Derrick Rodgers
4. James Allen
5. Sedrick Hodge.
6. Ashely Ambrose.
7. Fred Thomas
8. Mel Mitchell
9. Jonathan Sullivan.

Just take a look at all of the players I\'ve listed. It\'s not hard to figure out why this team has struggled. No, talent is not the only thing that\'s been the problem. But, it\'s hard to say that this team is overly talented.

Now, as far as the defense goes. Not taking any blame off of the offense, but to say our defesne hasn\'t been the BIGGEST problem is a little mis-guided, IMHO.










[Edited on 28/3/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:54 PM   #23
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The 5 most important players in '05.

I suppose I could be spinning things? But, I\'m not!
dude you spin stuff more than clinton\'s campaign team....

A classsic example of looking at potential instead of actual production is Donte\' Stallworth. Based on potential, Stallworth is an elite receiver. Based on production, however, Stallworth has been very inconsistent in his NFL career. Before last season, folks were calling Stallworth a BUST. Last year Stallworth managed to silence some of his critics, but he hardly lived up to his \"hype\" nor did he live up to his first round draft status.
true but the same could be said about other players who have been playing for five years...for the saints..

1. Victor Riley.
2. Ernie Conwell.
3 Derrick Rodgers
4. James Allen
5. Sedrick Hodge.
6. Ashely Ambrose.
7. Fred Thomas
8. Mel Mitchell
9. Jonathan Sullivan.
they\'re not questionable..they are either old or just plain suck.
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:08 PM   #24
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The 5 most important players in '05.


By most important I assume you are referring to the guys who must step up over what they did last year. AB and Deuce are more important to this team than any other positions I can think of. Charles Grant/Darren Howard/Will Smith are extremely important to the defense, but if they play just like they did last year I\'m not worried about them.

So I\'ll just compose my list by which guys I think need to step it up the most for us to avoid a repeat of the worst defense I have ever seen in my life, as well as an inconsistent offense.

1. Howard Green. Or whoever wins the job next to Bryan Young. That DT spot is THE main reason teams ran right through us.At times Green looked good. At other times not so good. I have high hopes for someone to step it up. Leisle, Bryant, Sullivan, Whitehead, Smith. I don\'t care who. Of all our DT\'s I\'m least worried about Brian Young. He was easily our most consistent DT.

2. James Allen. His back-up is Sedrick Hodge. I think he\'s pretty important.

3. Colby Bockwoldt. His knock is he can get overpowered pretty easily unless he gets much stronger. Teams are gonna exploit this in 2005. He\'d better be ready because there ain\'t jact-shik behind him.

4. Courtney Watson. He performed exactly as many thought he would last year. Hopefully he won\'t experience a sophomore slump. I personally don\'t think he\'s the kind of guy to have one. He seems highly motivated, intelligent, and has all the physical skills you\'d like as a MLB. If he progresses like most 2nd year players we\'ll be OK. If not we could be in trouble.

5. Dwight Smith. new player, new system. I think we\'ve all seen what happens when quality players from other teams come here. Most regress, stagnate, or just flat stink it up. Sloan, Conwell, Connell, Carter, Jackson, Carter, Hand, Nesbit, Ford, etc. While its obvious Dwight Smith is a better player than Bellamy and Jones it remains to be seen if this staff can utilize him properly.

But the most important position going into 2005 isn\'t a player. Its Jim Haslett, and his staff.

'Tolerance And Apathy Are The Last Virtues Of A Dying Society'
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:09 PM   #25
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The 5 most important players in '05.

baronm --

I really know better than to respond to your comments. But I\'ve been noticing quite a few from you lately.

First ... You seem to want to turn this thread into something personal. This thread is not about \"GumboBC\". This thread is about GumboBC\'s opinions.

I see you have a different opinion. Great ! How about you tell us why it differs instead of specualting why I post my opinions.

If you want to point out where I\'m wrong .. I welcome that. If you want to make it personal ... then you need to cut it out.

And, no, it\'s not your opinion. Well, it is your opinion, but you\'re going places that you shouldn\'t ..
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:48 PM   #26
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The 5 most important players in '05.

dude you are saying the same thing over and over...it\'s not a debate it\'s like it\'s getting pounded into our head..and it\'s boring lets move on. --look I\'m sorry..I\'m just getting tired of the same old same old..
Ok-opinions:

Smith is an upgrade on t-bucky..but I think that we need a SS..I don\'t think bellemy is going to cut it...I think that\'s what the team thinks too and they will look at davis in the draft. but I don\'t think he will be there (i think the chiefs will snag him).

This is another area where the current group of players must take their game to another level. Most of the pressure, however, is going to be placed on 2nd year MLB Courtney Watson. While you hear terms like \"smart\",\" instinctive\", and \"intelligent\" when Watson is mentioned ... what you don\'t hear are terms such as: \"proven\" and \"play-maker.\" The same thing can be said for all of the linebackers.
MLB-I think watson is better than anyone we have...he has the skills to be very productive..but without a defensive line in front of him, what can he really do? he\'s got to fight guardsthat were supposed to be blocked by the tackles..in that light i think he did very well. I do think that the saints are looking at moving him to outside linebacker...which would upgrade our linebacking core-if the mlb were near as instinctive as watson seems to be.


WLB: I think allen is much better than his backup, though I\'m not sure if that\'s a good thing or not-i really think he is a backup as well. Most analyst seem to think that he is pretty good..but then that is comparing him to hodge (who should never have been brought back). .colby-not sure..he played better than anyone on defense and as a weakside linebacker he did fine..heck-he intercepted a pass and scored a touchdown (that is making plays, IMO). TO me-OLB is our first or second biggest weakness (together with D-line).

{ btw colby is rated # 62, allen is 82, and watson is 171..based on production...so that might mean that watson WOULD be better served moving outside..however he does have the most tackles and sacks on our linebacker group in less games played than anyone but colby..so take from that what you will}I am not sold on Davis...which is why I really think that }the saints are going to go elsewhere..just have that feeling..and move watson to outside linebacker...however-if we could get blackstock-he would be an upgrade over colby and/or allen...but your right-this is an area of need.

DL- sully was a bust..the running game killed us which was the result of having a pathetic d-tackles. I\'m really scared that the saints will draft a player like travis johnson who has inconsistent written all over him. we need guys that can keep the guards off of our linebackers so they can be productive. THe ends played great, but the tackles were far from good

cb-I think we are fine..for the first time in ages...but that started when mckenzie came to play and ambrose was taken out or got hurt. I really think that MM, craft and brown are a PDG cb group..and other than getting youth don\'t see many draft prospects that excite me.

Defense as a whole: I think it was 1. having to be on the feild for a long time, and 2. venturi...not so much talent. I think this d has the talent, but no d is going to be that great if the offense doesn\'t help it out.

we as a team cannot keep relying on retreads and must improve the accountability and climate of our team..otherwise no matter who we have on paper-we will stay 8-8. THat is why I keep suggesting players that are of a little higher caliber character and intelligence wise...ala castillo and Ruud (both of whom would make this defense significantly better).



[Edited on 28/3/2005 by baronm]
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:58 PM   #27
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The 5 most important players in '05.

baronm -

First, I read your last post and I think you did a very good job of evaluating our defense. Good job.

But, look ....

it\'s not your place to decide what is a valid topic and what isn\'t. Hell, I\'m sick of all the \"mock\" draft threads. But, I just don\'t read \'em or post in them.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:18 PM   #28
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The 5 most important players in '05.

thing is-we can\'t do anything about last year..we can only improve..

I want to fix alot of things on this team..and right now the only way to do that is thru the draft or Free agency.

smith was a great pickup unless he starts smoking what\'s being passed around. I don\'t think he will.


other than that-the two players I want for our D: Ruud and castillo..wouldn\'t be too upset if davis was picked as well..but I am leery of him.

I think that moving watson outside with say ruud and davis or ruud and blackstock or even blackstock, davis and watson would give us a great linebacking core...allen and colby as backups.

I think that castillo is a great run stopper and would save us if sully never finds the light.

I do wish we had gotten compensation for t-bucky..

anyway-we know what\'s wrong..now let\'s fix it...we need DT and Linebackers.

quality linebackers will be gone early1-2. DT\'s...is there even any real stud DT? Most of the ones that I like seem to be going 2-4...

so let\'s hope we pick up some upgrades..other than that...lets forget last season except to talk about how we can get better...not laying the blame.

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Old 03-28-2005, 03:45 PM   #29
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The 5 most important players in '05.

Thank you both Gumbo and Baron, for defusing what could have become another thread I\'d have to edit. I too get tired of somethings posted for what seems like the umpteenth time but most of the time at least the poster tries to come from a different slant. I have the idea that if I don\'t like what\'s in a thread I don\'t have to (a) read it and (b) post to it. What I do get tired of(since I have to read every single post to every single thread) is when a poster chooses to belittle another member because he dosen\'t like the post. That I will edit! We are here to talk Saints football and NFL football and that\'s it.

So thanks again guys for trying to make our job easier.

See, I don\'t play favorites, I even edit myself!

[Edited on 28/3/2005 by JOESAM2002]

Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!!

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Old 03-28-2005, 03:48 PM   #30
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The 5 most important players in '05.

I really think all of us would be better served looking at actual production rather than potential. Because when we talk about potential, I think we start to overrate certain players.
Does that work both ways? Are certain players * cough * Horn * cough * underrated based on what they actually do on the field?
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