A truthful look at our WRs
 

The Saints’ receivers are often referred to, by the media and fans, as one of the most talented groups in the NFL. But, I think that’s more wishful thinking than anything else.

While I believe Joe Horn is a very capable number one receiver that produces year in and year out, I also believe he lacks the ability some number one receivers possess.

Then, after Joe Horn, you’ve got Donte’ Stallworth. Stallworth has shown great ability to excel after he catches the ball. But, at the same time, he has really lacked the ability to get open on a consistent basis and he’s lacked the ability to hold on to the ball. And then of course his injuries have really affected his progress.

That leaves WR Jerome Pathon. Pathon has been serviceable but has never been anything other than a 3rd receiver since being drafted by the Colts.

I think some fans get caught up thinking about how our receivers would look in the Colts’ offense with Peyton Manning throwing the passes. I suppose that’s fun to think about but the truth is there’s only one Peyton Manning and we really don’t know how any of our receivers would look no matter who the QB is.

Maybe we do have an elite group of receivers, but they sure haven’t shown it over the years. That is .. nobody but Joe Horn. I’ve got to think that if Joe Horn can manage to stand out in this offense that there is no excuse for the other receivers.

Let’s hope this year someone other than Joe Horn can stand out in the offense!


[Edited on 27/3/2005 by GumboBC]

A truthful look at our WRs
 

I think Donte is ready to have a break out year. Here are some things that indicat that:

1. Stayed healthy all last season.
2. The only time his hands looked particularly questionable to me was on the slant and short routes where Brooks gunned it.
3. Standard 3-4 year learning curve for NFL WRs. Donte will now be hitting full stride if you buy this conventional wisdom.
4. Improved OLine should give Brooks a couple of extra miliseconds to deliver deeper passes - which can only help a burner like Stallworth.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Ok. Fair enough. Having said that, this year I think Stallworth will step up and be that solid #2. Depending on how many passes he gets he could be close with Horn. Some are going to say WHAT!!! How could you say that. Well last year Donte had his best year so far, and played in 16 games. He finished 2nd in the team with 767 yds and 5 td\'s. Horn had another stellar year and the TD\'s Really do seperate the 2. With Donte moving up to the #2 spot, it\'ll automatically get more passes thrown his way, and if the Saints gameplan for this year is true:

OFFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS: The Saints want to be a more run-oriented, ball-control offense this season. To that end, new coordinator Mike Sheppard is reducing the volume of plays in the playbook. The goal is improved efficiency. The Saints have been hounded by mental errors and penalties in recent seasons. Head coach Jim Haslett believes the scaled-down playbook will help prevent future breakdowns. He also wants to improve time of possession by running the ball more often, compliemented by a short play-action passing attack. The passing game will feature more high-percentage throws with an emphasis on short drops and quick strikes to prevent sacks and take advantage of the running skills of receivers Joe Horn, Donte\' Stallworth and Devery Henderson.

This is obviously to take advantage of our receivers and their abilities after the catch which should favor Stallworth. If he\'s doing more with the ball after he\'s catching it, as he\'s capable, then he\'ll be the one getting more passes. In the end I think he\'ll up his stats from last year to the full schedule played, 850-950 yds, and 8-10 td\'s. This will help balance our attack along with the addition of Mcallister scoring more as well. Not sure what to excpect from our 3rd receivers, being Gardner or Henderson. I think we\'ll work them in slowly and pass more to our TE\'s.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

This is interesting. Would our receivers look better without a lock-on QB who also has no idea about touch passes or getting the ball to a player in stride? Maybe. Probably. Yes. What about a QB who doeasn\'t lead the player into a highlight reel hit for a defender? Yeah, I think so. Blame the receivers if we like, but the guy who is attempting to get them the ball ain\'t nothing to brag on at all.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

I think Stallworth played pretty good last season. Obviously still not up to the potential he has, but he seems to be improving and becoming more of a reliable reciever. He is getting open more. I think Stallworth will be a great #1 receiver one day. He can have a huge impact on the game when he comes through. Here\'s a question though. If the Saints go back to a rushing offense and if Horn shows up like he did last year, he will probably get most of the catches, right? Under these stipulations what kind of stats would be acceptable (to you guys) from Stallworth?

A truthful look at our WRs
 

I thought Pathon was released....???

A truthful look at our WRs
 

He was. Shadow, what kind of production do you think Stallworth should have this year?

A truthful look at our WRs
 

I also think Donte will have a breakout season just based on what I saw in the Oakland game......dude was burnin\' DB\'s left and right but as someone said earlier AB was \"locked\" on one rec. If Stall is healthy all year, look for him to catch if not pass Horn.....
Don\'t get me wrong..I LOVE JOE HORN...but I think Donte is the truth.....<ching>

[Edited on 27/3/2005 by CHACHING]

A truthful look at our WRs
 

He wasn\'t locked on one receiever....he just wasn\'t aware that there was anyone else on the field to throw to. But seriously, Stallworth is due.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Any WR is going to look better with a better QB.

An acceptable year from Stallworth, given Horn, Brooks, and a more consistent running attack: 55 catches, 6 TDs, 750 yards. A great season, given those things: 65 catches, 8 TDs, 925 yards.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Just to revisit this locked on idea - those that think that Brooks was \"locked on\" need to show why this argument isn\'t any good:

1. The rough average number of passes thrown to a #1 WR is about 27% of passes thrown.
2. The number of passes thrown to Joe was 28% of total passes.
Therefore,
3. Joe was thrown to at exactly the same rate as all #1 WRs.
Therefore,
4. Joe was not locked on to any more than any other #1 WR.

Here are two things that I think count against this argument:
1. Brooks appeared to be locked on in some games - the short reciever was open, but Brooks was looking for Horn. I stipulate to this; Brooks did lock on at times. However, that doesn\'t show that he was any more or less locked on than any other QB, given the argument above.
2. Brooks did not distribute the ball to the RB at the same rate most other QBs do. Perhaps, Brooks is locked downfield, but not necessarily on Joe - I\'ll buy that argument, given the statistical evidence. Again, this doesn\'t show that Brooks was locked on Joe.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Agreed.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Kool, how many games did you go to? And this isn\'t to knock your facts, but just a question. How many games did anyone go to? I went to one, in Dallas, where AB happened to look terrible(I am sure it was a fluke though ;) ) and he locked on to Horn in that game, to the tune of a red zone INT and an INT to Roy Williams who neber gets any. My pops owns season tickets and went to every game. Unbiased as they come, supports Brooks, then offers criticism when he does poorly. Before I could even mention my thoughts on this subject, he told me he and those around him noticed AB\'s lock onto Joe mentality. Now I don\'t know what lock on means to you, cause I was the one who posted the percentages, but lock on to me means if the offense is going well, the ball gets shared. But if there is any trouble, quick pass rush, blitz, whatever, the ball is going to Joe, no ifs ands or buts. Third down needed? The ball is going to Joe. Now, I am sorry if I am gonna take what I saw, and what someone who was at all home games saw.

But since the 28% figure which I found was put out there, do you know the next highest percentage thrown to on our team? I posted that too. It was Donte at 19%. For peyton Manning, Harrison got 28%, but Wayne got 23% and Stokley 20%. Shows an even distribution as the second guy and even the third guy are relatively close to the first guy. Same with Denver, same with Tennessee, same with the other teams I posted that seem to be missed. As a matter of fact, you will rarely find a team who throws it to their number one more than 30%, so the factor for lock on thus becomes how much is the second guy getting the ball, and the third. Not nearly as much as other teams. SO that to me is lock on. But, to each his own.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Ok...I\'m going to attempt to break down Stallworth , and copmare him to some of the other WR\'s drafted in the first round of the 2002 draft...even though many good receivers were taken in the 2nd round..for now, I will stick to the first round WR\'s

In order , starting from the highest picked WR on down...

Stallworth ranks highest, bieng taken with the 13th overall pick...

His numbers are as follows

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
2002 New Orleans Saints 13 7 42 594 14.1 57 8 11 2 26
2003 New Orleans Saints 11 3 25 485 19.4 76 3 6 3 19
2004 New Orleans Saints 16 10 58 767 13.2 45 5 13 1 35
TOTAL 40 20 125 1846 14.8 76 16 30 6 80


Next is Ashley Lelie..he was drafted 19th overall..his numbers are as follows...

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
2002 Denver Broncos 16 1 35 525 15.0 48 2 9 3 24
2003 Denver Broncos 16 10 37 628 17.0 60 2 11 5 25
2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 54 1084 20.1 58 7 21 5 40
TOTAL 48 27 126 2237 17.8 60 11 41 13 89

Then we have Javon Walker, taken 20th overall

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
2002 Green Bay Packers 15 2 23 319 13.9 30 1 6 0 14
2003 Green Bay Packers 16 3 41 716 17.5 66 9 12 4 27
2004 Green Bay Packers 16 12 89 1382 15.5 79 12 19 7 63
TOTAL 47 17 153 2417 15.8 79 22 37 11 104


Now..when you look at the 3..side by side..Stallworth is clearly the least productive of the 3...and although many will state his injuries held him back..he had more starts than Walker..and only 7 less the Lelie...and both Walker and Lelie have progressed at a much better rate than Stallworth...

I could go back even further, and get some 2nd rounders who have been equal or better than Donte has been..

I think the truth may be getting clearer to me...It was infact a very good year for drafting WR..We may have needed to take more time to consider other guys...maybe even waiting till the 2nd round..

Donte has progressed some..but his pace is much slower than that of his Peers in his age group...We have an Offense comparable to any of the WR\'s mentioned...So..what\'s the missing ingredient?..

I\'m not sure..he was suppose to be the best of the group..But has failed in all areas to reach beyond the level of his peers..and I\'m not convinced that he can catch up...

I predict sometime in the near future Stallworth will be a solid 3rd Wide out...I just haven\'t seen enough evidence to convince me He is now, or has ever been prepared to take charge in an NFL Offense...

Don\'t be too suprised to see the team take a 3rd or higher pick and spend it on a WR...





[Edited on 27/3/2005 by shadowdrinker]

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Nice work shadow. I don\'t diagree with what you are saying, but Stallworth has been injured so his ability to grow at the same rate may be stunted. Also, Walker\'s QB is Favre. Nuff said there. And Lelie\'s QB is Plummer, who when he is good, is real good, but can occasionaly be real bad. IT\'s usually for a game or so though so and not a season. I think Stallworth will be a damn fine number two, just maybe not with this team.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

[quote:5fb01774fb] I think Stallworth will be a damn fine number two, just maybe not with this team.


Do you mean team or QB?

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Good question FN. Let\'s say either/or.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

[quote:362b87eebf] Good question FN. Let\'s say either/or.

Ok. The easy way out it it is. I can read the rest between the lines. ;)

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Sounds good, eh? What I\'m also hearing here:
No or very few passes deep downfield, just like last year. Stallworth\'s and Henderson\'s speed could be used to overwhelm opponent\'s backfields and AB can make these throws. Yet the offensive coordinator ignores these mismatches.
AB\'s ability to throw touch passes will be crucial. Uh-oh.

With Horn and Stallworth we have 2 above average starters. Not as good as some other combos, but still in the Top 10. What I miss is some big posession receiver and depth overall. Gardner and Henderson may well be good options, but I wouldn\'t mind a proven veteran.

Stallworth\'s progress doesn\'t worry me. Lelie and Walker may have put up better numbers, but they don\'t have a Joe Horn on their teams either. He was a good pick at #13.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

While I would likely agree with the argument that the Saints WRs have not entirely lived up, the argument that they aren\'t an extremely talented group is a bad one. Let\'s look at the guys,

Horn - let\'s just leave it at, the guy has talent. You don\'t go to 4 of 5 Pro Bowls with no talent. Top 10 in the league in talent, top 5 in production.

Pathon - In college, Pathon only started for two years, but is second all-time in receiving in U. Washington history. The guy is not at number one level, but he is certainly a pretty darn good number 2 and great as a thrid WR.

Stallworth - was All-SEC at Tennesee as a sophomore, a year in which he was injured. The guy was a first round pick in the NFL draft. He has sick speed and freakish strength for a guy his size. Before being hurt in the 5th game of his rookie year, Stallworth was on pace to all-time rookie records as a WR. How you can say this guy doesn\'t have talent is beyond me.

Henderson and Lewis are both guys with unreal speed. Neither, IMO, will ever be great NFL WRs. Both lack size and hands and brains to do it. But both are serious threats ever time they touch the ball.

Gardner and D. Lewis are both solid prospects. Nathan Black is the MAN!! :)

A truthful look at our WRs
 

sounds like our team in general.


who?

A truthful look at our WRs
 

WhoDat --

Wasn\'t it you that argued in a previous thread that Joe Horn has put up probowl stats without much help from the other WRs? I\'m sure I\'m not imaging things ... ;)

Notice that I only referred to actual production when it came to our WRs. Sure, Stallworth is probably one of the fastest, if not the fastest, WRs in the game. But, the fact of the matter is Stallworth hasn\'t performed as well as he should have. I think what he did in college has nothing to do with this discussion.

Really, WhoDat made my case for me. If you look at potential, then ... we have an elite group of receivers. If you look at actual production, we\'ve got an underacheiving group.

[Edited on 27/3/2005 by GumboBC]

A truthful look at our WRs
 

I went to all the home games and i thought Aaron went through his progressions pretty good....or as good to be expected when u have bout 1 second...i do agree he could go to Deuce more, but on most passing plays the Rb is the last progression. To put some accountability on Aaron it wouldn\'t hurt if he went threw his progressions faster. The reason he might seem locked on Joe is because the #1 Wr is the first option on most plays.

A truthful look at our WRs
 

Hmmm...have you heard Aaron Brooks hold an interview? This is one guy who I doubt can properly check down as a QB in the NFL. People of average intelligence have trouble with it. I honestly think that AB is not mentally capable of playing the QB position efficiently in the NFL. He relies on his physical gifts, which he definitely has. He just seems to approach the game like he\'s playing in his backyard or something.

A QB who checks down and sees that no one is open throws it away. He doesn\'t try to do some ridiclous spin move or take a sack or fumble. And before you go and say the O-line didn\'t give him time, don\'t even try it. I\'ve been to games and seen him firsthand. 3 seconds is enough time for an NFL reciever to determine if anyone is open, even less in a West Coast offense.

The Saints have one of the most talented WR corps in the NFL....I agree, but of course Gumbo thinks that everyone else is wrong and he is right.

Just some more shifting of the blame going on here.

[Edited on 28/3/2005 by GoldenTomb]